Question for our Protestant friends

[PJM]

My dear friends in Christ

Luke 2:11 “For, this day, is born to you a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord, in the city of David“.

Luke 19: 8-10 “But Zacheus standing, said to the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have wronged any man of any thing, I restore him fourfold. Jesus said to him: This day is salvation come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Luke 23:43 “And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise” [Spoken from the Cross to the “good thief.]

Do these passages form the FOUNDATION for Protestant beliefs that Christ has done all that is necessary for “any and ALL believers” and that their salvation is by these passages assured?

 

[Link0126]

They always bring up the thief on the cross. I can tell you that much.

 

[Dubay]

Protestant or our beloved Catholicism, I am challenged to understand your question and/or point.

Respectfully

 

[Nicea325]

They always bring up the thief on the cross. I can tell you that much.

Indeed,but that does not constitute all of us will receive the same blessing from God.

 

[onceablasphemer]

The thief confessed to Jesus and was forgiven. A pretty clear notion of confession, along with John 20:23 of course.

 

[lyle]

Well these verses were proof that the Jesus came to the house of Israel first to provide salvation for them which was promised throughout the Old Testament. Jesus Christ and His works has secured my salvation, this is my foundation Christ. In the Gospel of John chapter 6 verses 39-40 And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[lyle]

I really like Fulton Sheens quote there’s a lot of truth in that quote.

 

[SteveVH]

Well these verses were proof that the Jesus came to the house of Israel first to provide salvation for them which was promised throughout the Old Testament. Jesus Christ and His works has secured my salvation, this is my foundation Christ. In the Gospel of John chapter 6 verses 39-40 And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Sometimes I think people confuse “redemption” with “salvation”. Christ died, once, for all. That is redemption. He paid the price. The gates of heaven were opened once again and because of Christ’s passion, death and resurrection all of mankind has the opportunity to spend eternity with God as his adopted sons and daughters. Redemption required nothing on the part of man.

Salvation is quite another issue. It requires a response by man to the saving grace that God has made available through Christ’s redemption. Our response to God’s grace is the deciding factor in whether or not we are saved. And this response is not limited to a one time moment of sincerity, but is an ongoing requirement. We can always choose to reject God’s grace, even after accepting it at one point in our lives. That is why, like Paul, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Woody87]

I am not even sure how you put these together as the FOUNDATION of sola fide. I would say on this subject that my salvation comes from Christ alone. This was given to me by the Father as a gift which I had and have done nothing to deserve. I am, though, sanctified by my works which are done in concordance with the inner working of the spirit who is the keeper and sustainer of my faith(faith might be a misnomer). These works are done by every Christian not for his salvation but because he is saved. He is no longer a slave to sin and the devil but is a slave to righteousness, so he does work. Faith with without works is not really faith at all but works are not the means of salvation they are the result. Basically to restate what I have been trying to say salvation is done and we can do nothing to extenuate, mitigate, abate and/or indulge our just punishment if it is our own. We cannot become more or less justified from God’s perspective at least in my opinion.
P.S. Sorry if you weren’t meaning to bring up this subject.

 

[PJM]

=Dubay;9818880]Protestant or our beloved Catholicism, I am challenged to understand your question and/or point.

Respectfully

Allow me to try to clarify it for you.

From my experience it is a very common Protestant position that By the ACTION of Christ passion and death [and profession of belief in Christ as God] ALL of their sins are forgiven.

This seems to ME a topic worthy of discussion.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[PJM]

=onceablasphemer;9819315]The thief confessed to Jesus and was forgiven. A pretty clear notion of confession, along with John 20:23 of course.

MAYBE?

But far more revelant is that this act permitted the “good theif” to receive the necessary Sacrament of Baptism [by Desire] John 3:5; Mt. 16;18-19 Jihn 20: 19-23.

God Bless,
Pat /PJM

 

[PJM]

=SteveVH;9825652]Sometimes I think people confuse “redemption” with “salvation”. Christ died, once, for all. That is redemption. He paid the price. The gates of heaven were opened once again and because of Christ’s passion, death and resurrection all of mankind has the opportunity to spend eternity with God as his adopted sons and daughters. Redemption required nothing on the part of man.

Salvation is quite another issue. It requires a response by man to the saving grace that God has made available through Christ’s redemption. Our response to God’s grace is the deciding factor in whether or not we are saved. And this response is not limited to a one time moment of sincerity, but is an ongoing requirement. We can always choose to reject God’s grace, even after accepting it at one point in our lives. That is why, like Paul, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

GREAT POST my friend, and we agree

BUT how do We prove it?

God Bless,
Pat /PJM

 

[PJM]

=Woody87;9825744]I am not even sure how you put these together as the FOUNDATION of sola fide. I would say on this subject that my salvation comes from Christ alone. This was given to me by the Father as a gift which I had and have done nothing to deserve. I am, though, sanctified by my works which are done in concordance with the inner working of the spirit who is the keeper and sustainer of my faith(faith might be a misnomer). These works are done by every Christian not for his salvation but because he is saved. He is no longer a slave to sin and the devil but is a slave to righteousness, so he does work. Faith with without works is not really faith at all but works are not the means of salvation they are the result. Basically to restate what I have been trying to say salvation is done and we can do nothing to extenuate, mitigate, abate and/or indulge our just punishment if it is our own. We cannot become more or less justified from God’s perspective at least in my opinion.
P.S. Sorry if you weren’t meaning to bring up this subject.

SO NICE to hear from a Protestant here.

Right topic for your FYI, but I’d ;like to see where this leads before I respond to you.

THANKS, Pat /PJM *

God Bless*

 

[Woody87]

I would say romans would be a good start the first 9 or 10 chapters. I am not big on taking quotes out of context also check eph 2 that is just off the top of my head though. The words are there a lot but the problem is how catholics combine verses and interpret them. As far as I can tell the RCC encourages a interpretation which is is forced and not the conclusion you would come to looking at the text objectively.
J.I. Packer and C.H. Spurgeon have great papers on the matter

 

[SteveVH]

GREAT POST my friend, and we agree

BUT how do We prove it?

God Bless,
Pat /PJM

I’m not sure there is anything to prove if one can distinguish between redemption and salvation. This is not a distinction that I have seen many Protestants make, but I would hope that if they are made aware of the difference that the fallacy of OSAS would be evident. God has thrown us a rope. He has provided the means to be saved. But I have to make the choice to either grab the rope and climb out or remain in the pit. Seems pretty simple to me. Anyway, thanks for the accolades.

 

[PJM]

Orig. posted by Woody87

I would say romans would be a good start the first 9 or 10 chapters. I am not big on taking quotes out of context also check eph 2 that is just off the top of my head though. The words are there a lot but the problem is how catholics combine verses and interpret them. As far as I can tell the RCC encourages a interpretation which is forced and not the conclusion you would come to looking at the text objectively.

My dear friend in Christ,

First could you share a bit of info On “the Way”; I’ve not heard of that denomination before.

Because space in rightly limited here on the FORUM, my response has to be brief.

IF YOU or anyone would like more information, please contact me on this FORUM’S Private message option.

I will use Bible references w/o the passages to save space.

Here is a site where you can easily look up the Catholic RSV and the KJB comparisons.

biblestudytools.com/parallel-bible/

It is critical to understand that the Bible was “birthed” by the CC, having collected the OT books to be included and authored the ENTIRE NT. Further One must recognize that all of the Teachings therein; notably by Jesus Himself are first and foremost intended for His 12 Apostles and then THROUGH THEM [and by necessity of Matt.28:19-20] today’s Catholic Church. [YOU /singular] “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, [meaning the entire world which obviously HAD to include succession to be accomplished] baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Mt.10:1-8, Mt. 15:19-20, Mt. 18:18, Mt. 28: 16-20, John 14:16-17, John 17:15-19 and John 20: 19-23. This is a partial list to save space.

The totality of the bible clearly and indisputably supports the Catholic Teachings.

Always and everywhere Yahweh and Christ taught with unerring consistency belief in ONLY:

One God [TRIUNE]
Only One set of Faith beliefs
And only one “faith Body” Synagogue / “church”; a term Introduced by Christ in Mt. 16:15-19.
There in my friend ONLY ONE Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible.

NEVER-EVER CAN ONE PASSAGE MAKE VOID, INVALIDATE OR OVERRULE ANOTHER TEACHING. SUCH A POSSIBILITY WOULD RENDER THE BIBLE COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.

Perhaps the most important guide for right and FULL understanding is that One ought to always presume that what the author wrote is actually what he intended to relate. LITERAL TRANSLATION ought to the first applied technique used.

I would point out that ONLY the CC has been given what is necessary for Full and Right interpretation of God’s Word. [SEE THE ABOVE given references]

Psalms 127:1 ““Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.”

John.14: 26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.” FULFILLED FOR THE APOSTLES ALONE IN JN. 20;21-22

Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”

Romans 13: 2 “Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”

Mark 7:13 “Making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do.”

Luke 4:4 “And Jesus answered him: It is written, that Man liveth not by bread alone, but by every word of God.”

Luke 11:28 “But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it”

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [singular] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,

This Post id meant to be FOUNDATIONAL, more info to follow.

 

[Woody87]

NEVER-EVER CAN ONE PASSAGE MAKE VOID, INVALIDATE OR OVERRULE ANOTHER TEACHING. SUCH A POSSIBILITY WOULD RENDER THE BIBLE COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.

I would point out that ONLY the CC has been given what is necessary for Full and Right interpretation of God’s Word.

Ok, not so sure that was short
Anyway sense we are obviously going away from the subject at hand. You said"ONE PASSAGE MAKE VOID, INVALIDATE OR OVERRULE ANOTHER TEACHING" do you mean that no passage or grouping there of can make void or contradict another passage or grouping of passages. I agree.

Do all christians not have the Spirit of truth. Is this only a partial truth? Is the RCC better than God at distributing truth. If you claim that something is the truth does it make it so?
I could say something like Rom 5:1 but then you’ll say Jas 2:24(I think).

I could just troll your logic but that would lead us nowhere, right? Can we come back to the subject please and not just spam each other it won’t accomplish anything?

 

[Woody87]

Can we make a rule not to all capital letters on anything that is posted if you want to highlight a certain thing you are saying underline it or something else all caps tends to be really annoying for me to read

 

[PJM]

=Woody87;9826930]

NEVER-EVER CAN ONE PASSAGE MAKE VOID, INVALIDATE OR OVERRULE ANOTHER TEACHING. SUCH A POSSIBILITY WOULD RENDER THE BIBLE COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.

I would point out that ONLY the CC has been given what is necessary for Full and Right interpretation of God’s Word.

Ok, not so sure that was short
Anyway sense we are obviously going away from the subject at hand. You said"ONE PASSAGE MAKE VOID, INVALIDATE OR OVERRULE ANOTHER TEACHING" do you mean that no passage or grouping there of can make void or contradict another passage or grouping of passages. I agree.

Do all christians not have the Spirit of truth

Obviously and logically NOT. There can only be ONE TRUTH oer issue. The FACT that there exist a multitude of Protestant “faiths”; each with there own believes prove Catholism ALONE has as the Bible proclaims the TRUTH:thumbsup:

Is the RCC better than God at distributing truth. If you claim that something is the truth does it make it so?"
**
YES if it’s the Doctrine or Dogma of the CC on ALL Matters of Faith and or Morals. JESUS HIMSELF warrants it as does the Holy Spirit.

Jn.14:16-17 fulfilled in Jn.20:21-22 and Jn.17:15-19.**
I could say something like Rom 5:1 but then you’ll say Jas 2:24(I think).

I could just troll your logic but that would lead us nowhere, right? Can we come back to the subject please and not just spam each other it won’t accomplish anything?

Friend, ITS NOT “MY LOGIC”; it’s biblical truth

God Bless,
Pat

 

[PJM]

=Woody87;9825744

I am not even sure how you put these together as the FOUNDATION of sola fide. I would say on this subject that my salvation comes from Christ alone. This was given to me by the Father as a gift which I had and have done nothing to deserve

My friend your confusing “Redemption“ and “salvation.” Assuming in error that they are identical. They are NOT.

Redemption was and is the effect of Christ Incarnation, Passion, Death and Resurrection. It applies to every soul ever created and yet to be created. And Like Stephan said it has to do with making heaven a POSSIBILITY. The “Original Sins” of Adam and Eve resulted in Heavens access being BLOCKED.

John 3:13 “And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven”

Acts Of Apostles 2:34 “For David ascended not into heaven; but he himself said: The Lord said to my Lord, sit thou on my right hand”

Salvation is more correctly and fully, THROUGH Christ alone; not literally “from” Christ alone as you state, although there is a Theologically acceptable understanding of that aspect too.

Where you are completely wrong is in your last statement. This a a Moral and a Theological impossibility for the following reasons:

As stated you imply “Predestination” although I think you actually mean “By Faith alone”?

Predestination is an impossibility because it would demand that God no-longer be “Good“ - Ps.73: 1“Truly God is good to the upright, to those who are pure in heart. “Perfect“- 2Sam.22 “This God – his way is perfect; the promise of the LORD proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him” and “Just” - Deut.10; 17 “For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God, who is not partial and takes no bribe”

This position is logically and morally impossible as God cannot deny Himself these attributes. Further predestination would also make God “imperfect” in the precise manner He Created all of humanity. We emulate our God with our Spiritual Gifts of mind, intellect and FREEWILL which are permanently attached to Our Souls and are what face the “Immediate Judgment” at our mortal death: 2Chr.19: 7 “Now then, let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed what you do, for there is no perversion of justice with the LORD our God, or partiality, or taking bribes." Predestination denies humanity the God given inherent right to decide for themselves where they will spend Eternity.
Your position of “by Faith alone” has similar faults. It’s simply unbiblical when doing as God Commands and using the entire Bible to gain right and Full understating. 2nd. Tim. 3:16-17 “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” KEEP IN MIND THE ONE INFALLIBLE RULE…
“Proverbs 30:5-6 “Every word of God is tested; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Add nothing to his words, lest he reprimand you, and you be proved a liar”

Also required are Grace which MUST come before “faith” Rom.5:1-2 “Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God” THIS is the precise reason Christ Instituted SEVEN Sacraments.

Baptism: Jn. 3:5 “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Obedience to the Commandments Mt. 19:17 “[17] And he said to him, " If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

Obedience to the Church Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.” Romans 13: 2 “Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”

Forgiveness of our sins [ONLY POSSIBLE THE WAY CHRIST HIMSELF COMMANDS] john 20:19-23 verses 21-23 “Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” [With My Godly powers…see Mt. 10:1-8] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Good Works; BUT NOT by themselves; BUT as evidence of ones’ true Faith

Woody you’d do us all [yourself too], a GREAT service by looking up the bible passages I have presented as evidence in previous post. Not doing so is inviting ignorance, and avoiding a full discussion.

God Bless you,
Pat