Question for theistic evolutionists

[DetectiveNiko]

I personally believe God could have used evolution to create humans, but I have few troubles with it that I would like explained. (Pepole who don’t believe evolution is true, I dearly ask not to argue that here as thats the subject of another already exsisting thread )
So a couple of questions

1. Why would God create Viruses ? (Not really a fully evolution question, but goes with it)
2. If God guides evolution, why does it sometimes fail, that is, damage the species ?
3. If we can get away from saying God created something bad (like snakes etc.) because its just a by product of evolution, how can we say he participated in the good ? It seems like double standards to me.
   I am quite curious to know possible answers to theese questions as they have been bugging me for a bit.
   Any response (as long as they are not anti-evolution ones) are greatly appreciated

 

[Eric_Hyom]

1. Why would God create Viruses ? (Not really a fully evolution question, but goes with it)

Death is the biggest imperfection, and we all die. The solutions to all the problems of creation; will be put right in a greater good life after death with God.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

That does not help , I am not asking the question from a moral standpoint
but asking for purpose of the creation in the first place. I wouldnt like
to think they were created just for disease, for the sake of being bad.

 

[upant]

I personally believe God could have used evolution to create humans, but I have few troubles with it that I would like explained. (Pepole who don’t believe evolution is true, I dearly ask not to argue that here as thats the subject of another already exsisting thread )
So a couple of questions

1. Why would God create Viruses ? (Not really a fully evolution question, but goes with it)
2. If God guides evolution, why does it sometimes fail, that is, damage the species ?
3. If we can get away from saying God created something bad (like snakes etc.) because its just a by product of evolution, how can we say he participated in the good ? It seems like double standards to me.
   I am quite curious to know possible answers to theese questions as they have been bugging me for a bit.
   Any response (as long as they are not anti-evolution ones) are greatly appreciated

maybe God just started the ball rolling and let evolution run its own course. why does God have to guide it?

kinda like free will for evolution. free to evolve as the surroundings permit.

 

[Vonsalza]

1. Why would God create Viruses ? (Not really a fully evolution question, but goes with it)

“I am that I am”.

I have no idea. There are 1000s of others questions that begin with “Why would God…” that I also can’t answer. The best cover-all is that their existence fulfills His will in some way that I either don’t have to or can’t know or understand.

1. If God guides evolution, why does it sometimes fail, that is, damage the species ?

Because it never “fails”. A casual event happens, which generates an effect; which is simultaneously another cause.

1. If we can get away from saying God created something bad (like snakes etc.) because its just a by product of evolution, how can we say he participated in the good?

Because as it pertains to life on Earth, there are no “good” and “bad” things. There are only “things”.

Goodness and badness are metaphysical properties that evolution does not, nor has to explain.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

But isn’t that kinda deism ?
And as I already have said, if he let evolution run its course, we can’t really say he created humans either can we ? But if we say he is respoinsible partly, then that also means he created the not so nice things in animals.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Goodness and badness are metaphysical properties that evolution does not, nor has to explain.

pretty sure theistic evolution would have to, as it claims that God guided the whole process. Unless you are saying that species that are specifically for the destruction of life would be created by God ?
( I can cope with meat eaters for example, they serve balance in the world, while viruses as an example only have bad traits, there is nothing good you can get from them as far as I am aware )

Because it never “fails”. A casual event happens, which generates an effect; which is simultaneously another cause.

Could you explain that in more detail please ? Don’t really understand. Evolution does fail, unless you propose that two headed pigs (which happened once ) are perfectly ok. Kinda seems like animal cruelty to me.

 

[De_Maria]

I personally believe God could have used evolution to create humans, but I have few troubles with it that I would like explained. (Pepole who don’t believe evolution is true, I dearly ask not to argue that here as thats the subject of another already exsisting thread )

Ok.

So a couple of questions

1. Why would God create Viruses ? (Not really a fully evolution question, but goes with it)

Most viruses have no negative effects. The ones that do are the ones to which we give the most attention. The one’s that have a negative effect, I blame upon interference by Satan. As he is the father of evil.

1. If God guides evolution, why does it sometimes fail, that is, damage the species ?

Because of the interference of the Evil one.

1. If we can get away from saying God created something bad (like snakes etc.) because its just a by product of evolution,

Snakes are good, for the most part.

how can we say he participated in the good ? It seems like double standards to me.

I don’t get your meaning.

I am quite curious to know possible answers to theese questions as they have been bugging me for a bit.
Any response (as long as they are not anti-evolution ones) are greatly appreciated

[/QUOTE]
I hope that helps.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Because of the interference of the Evil one.

I don’t know, why would the evil one just randomly cause an animal somewhere to have a painful mutation without any reason. Seems odfully purposeless to me. Besides, why would he be given that power in the first place. I know he is an angel and all, but he is not God.

I don’t get your meaning.

What I was trying to say is : If we can justify the bad things in evolution as : “Oh its just a by product of evolution” but the good things (humans etc.) as : "Oh its made by God ! " isn’t that a type of cherry picking.

I hope that helps.

Helps a bit regarding the virus part,since I was convinced viruses had no positive features, but I guess they do to some extent. Poor science on my part, I apologize. My other points still somewhat stand. Thanks a lot though !

 

[niceatheist]

On a technical note, while the viruses we most often encounter are deleterious (that is they kill or do harm to the host), viruses are pretty much the only way you can get horizontal gene transfer between most eukaryotes (bacteria and archaea are capable of more direct transfer of genetic material). I don’t know if you can call that a “purpose” of viruses, but it certainly is a side effect of the way they can take over the cellular machinery of a host.

For instance, one of the neatest evidences of evolution is Endogenous retroviruses (ERVs). Basically these are parts of a species’ genome that are essentially some part of a virus’s genome. In other words, at some point in the past, some host got infected by a virus, the immune system managed to fight off the infection, but the virus still left some of its genome in the host’s germ cell (ie. sperm or ova), and thus the host passed that piece of the virus genome along with its “native” genome. We can even track lineages by checking to see if related species have the same ERV insertions or not, which can act as a bit of a molecular clock. If you have three related species, and Species A and Species B have the same ERV insertion in their genome, but Species C does not, you can infer that Species C must have branched off from the common ancestor of all three species before Species A and Species B did.

Now, as if that wasn’t cool enough, viruses can grab pieces of a host’s DNA and integrate it into its own genome, so that that the viruses’ descendants will have pieces of “foreign” DNA, and yes, you guessed it, those non-viral sequences themselves can end up in another host, so that viruses can act as a means of horizontal gene transfer between different species. Ponder that the next time you have the flu, that maybe, just maybe, a tiny bit of bird or swine DNA might have come along for the ride.

 

[Vonsalza]

pretty sure theistic evolution would have to, as it claims that God guided the whole process. Unless you are saying that species that are specifically for the destruction of life would be created by God ?
( I can cope with meat eaters for example, they serve balance in the world, while viruses as an example only have bad traits, there is nothing good you can get from them as far as I am aware )

They’re all part of God’s creation. Just as much as you are. The virus ultimately serves the will of God just like anything else. They’re not good or bad. They just “are”.

Could you explain that in more detail please ? Don’t really understand. Evolution does fail, unless you propose that two headed pigs (which happened once ) are perfectly ok. Kinda seems like animal cruelty to me.

I guess it depends on how you charge the word “fail”, I suppose.

Evolutionary lines do get snuffed out. And new ones branch out. These events are neither good nor bad.

Mutations that occur (such as two-headed pigs) are one of the ways that the gene-pool expands. They promote the fitness of the species and proliferate, or they don’t and die out.

I think “cruelty” is a word you should reserve exclusively to human behavior. Unless you want to paint every carnivorous creature that’s ever lived and eaten as “cruel”. I wouldn’t make that jump.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

I chuckled at that last phrase, but yeah that is pretty cool. It seems like viruses can be pretty chill , until they make us chill

 

[upant]

But isn’t that kinda deism ?
And as I already have said, if he let evolution run its course, we can’t really say he created humans either can we ? But if we say he is respoinsible partly, then that also means he created the not so nice things in animals.

we have no direct link between man and apes so it could have been as genesis says two separate creation events each subject to its own run of evolution.

the garden of eden (edited) man did not fear death so nothing was harmful to him. therefore, evolution did not create evil. it turned harmful after the fall.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

I guess it depends on how you charge the word “fail”, I suppose.

Evolutionary lines do get snuffed out. And new ones branch out. These events are neither good nor bad.

Mutations that occur (such as two-headed pigs) are one of the ways that the gene-pool expands. They promote the fitness of the species and proliferate, or they don’t and die out.

I think “cruelty” is a word you should reserve exclusively to human behavior. Unless you want to paint every carnivorous creature that’s ever lived and eaten as “cruel”. I wouldn’t make that jump.

I guess that explains it well, didn’t think of it that way. I guess when you get so used to seeing the benefits evolution gives to animals,the few hindrances that are neccasary, can be quite overwhelming.
Guess I should think of how I see good and evil before I make those jumps.

I think “cruelty” is a word you should reserve exclusively to human behavior.

What would your opinion be to call it when I see an animal slowly dying because of a sickness ?
It looks cruel, but I guess cruelty isn’t the right word.
Thanks though.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

the garden of evil man did not fear death so nothing was harmful to him. therefore, evolution did not create evil. it turned harmful after the fall.

Thats the exact reason why I tend to heavily subscribe to theistic evolution. Things just suddenly becoming carnivorous because of the fall is a bit farfetched to me. But thanks for your response anyway.

 

[niceatheist]

we have no direct link between man and apes so it could have been as genesis says two separate creation events each subject to its own run of evolution.

Out of curiosity, what would a direct link look like? If it isn’t something like H. ergaster or H. erectus, then what is it you expect to find. I mentioned ERVs above, and yes, you guessed it, humans and the other great apes share ERV sequences as well, which, as I said, would allow you to infer that a common ancestor of the extant great apes got a nasty viral infection, then bred and passed along that foreign gene sequence to its descendants, us, chimps, gorillas and orangutans included.

Now if you wish to say that God picked a couple of people from some H. erectus or early H. sapiens population, did something (whatever that may be, inserted a soul, whatever), well I wouldn’t necessarily debate you, but that’s something different than claiming “no direct link”.

 

[niceatheist]

upant:

the garden of evil man did not fear death so nothing was harmful to him. therefore, evolution did not create evil. it turned harmful after the fall.

Thats the exact reason why I tend to heavily subscribe to theistic evolution. Things just suddenly becoming carnivorous because of the fall is a bit farfetched to me. But thanks for your response anyway.

I grew up in a Jehovah’s Witness family, and they were intensely anti-evolution, and had these bizarre beliefs like nothing ate meat before the Flood, which was a little hard to jive with the fact that there were no lack of carnivores out there. It’s hard to imagine a T. rex being that into salad.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Because of the interference of the Evil one.

I don’t know, why would the evil one just randomly cause an animal somewhere to have a painful mutation without any reason. Seems odfully purposeless to me.

The way that I understand it, is that the evil one is determined to harm us. And he is much more intelligent than we are. What seem random to us, is deliberate to him and he has many years, even centuries, to bring his plans to fruition.

Besides, why would he be given that power in the first place. I know he is an angel and all, but he is not God.

Again, the way I understand it, he wasn’t given any evil power. He was made the most beautiful and intelligent and most powerful of all the angels. But when he learned that God decided that He would become a man, he became jealous and prideful and declared that he would not serve an inferior creature (i.e. God made man).

At that point, he used all the good gifts he received from God, for evil purposes.

What I was trying to say is : If we can justify the bad things in evolution as : “Oh its just a by product of evolution” but the good things (humans etc.) as : "Oh its made by God ! " isn’t that a type of cherry picking.

1. Who does that?
2. I believe the bad things in evolution are examples of Satan’s meddling in God’s plans.

You might ask, “Well, why does an all loving and all powerful God allow Satan to do that?”

My understanding is that it is for the same reason that He gives us “free will”. It seems to be God’s will that our faith will be tested. And that seems to be for our benefit, because He, according to Theology, already knows whether our faith is true. But we don’t.

1 Peter 1:7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

It’s hard to imagine a T. rex being that into salad.

maybe he is just vegan. Let the dinosaurs pick
And yeah, while I don’t like talking ill of other people aspecially other religious groups, Jehnovah’s witnesses just don’t make sense. Like they claim to be Christian but don’t believe Jesus was God. I don’t know I thought the whole point of Christianity is that Jesus was God.But thats heading off topic.
Thanks for your educated responses. Atheist or not, you can learn something from everyone

 

[DetectiveNiko]

The way that I understand it, is that the evil one is determined to harm us. And he is much more intelligent than we are. What seem random to us, is deliberate to him and he has many years, even centuries, to bring his plans to fruition.

That’s what I was thinking too, but then again, I thought, I am probbably the only one thinking about these silly things.

At that point, he used all the good gifts he received from God, for evil purposes.

Thats the part that I dont understand, why didn’t he take away those powers after rebellion ? He isn’t taking away his free will by doing that.But that should probbably be the topic of another thread.

Who does that?

I have seen people do it before, can’t name anyone on the top of my head, but I do remember hearing about it.

I think I have seen you comment on my threads before de_maria and you always prove to be helpful to some extent. This time not as much as some other people in this, but I really appreciate it.