Question for theistic evolutionists

[niceatheist]

niceatheist:

It’s hard to imagine a T. rex being that into salad.

maybe he is just vegan. Let the dinosaurs pick
And yeah, while I don’t like talking ill of other people aspecially other religious groups, Jehnovah’s witnesses just don’t make sense. Like they claim to be Christian but don’t believe Jesus was God. I don’t know I thought the whole point of Christianity is that Jesus was God.But thats heading off topic.
Thanks for your educated responses. Atheist or not, you can learn something from everyone

The fact is, even if we don’t pay that much attention to ERVs, and concentrate on the more deleterious effects of viruses, they, like many other kinds of parasitism and predation, do function in ecosystems to weed out weaker members of a population. While that may seem cruel or even evil from a moral standpoint, someone above wisely noted that you shouldn’t try to look at nature in those kinds of terms.

I’m obviously an atheist, so I don’t see the point of asking “Why God would do this or that”, but if I were to try to imagine some creator deity setting up the complex web of life we see, the fact is that survival of populations means there must be differential reproductive success; in other the fittest are more likely to pass on their genes than the weaker. In the case of viruses, well, save for the most deadly, some individuals in a population will survive, and those that survive who survived due to some slightly stronger immune system due to a slight variation in genes involved in immune system development and activity will ultimately pass on those genes with greater frequency.

In other words, for the benefit of the whole population, predators, parasites and other diseases all play a role in maintaining a healthy population. And remember that in many, if not all cases, those predators, parasites, infectious diseases and the like are also under similar environmental pressures, so you can view the web of life as a constantly flowing river.

If I were to ever become a theist, I’d have a hard time imagining a god who creates a world where His direct intervention is necessary at every point. I’d more imagine some variant on the 2001 aliens; an unseen intellect that alters things at certain critical points, but in general has created a self-sustaining system that doesn’t require Him to move every molecule and direct every sperm cell.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

If I were to ever become a theist, I’d have a hard time imagining a God who creates a world where His direct intervention is necessary at every point. I’d more imagine some variant on the 2001 aliens; an unseen intellect that alters things at certain critical points, but in general, has created a self-sustaining system that doesn’t require Him to move every molecule and direct every sperm cell.

That’s kinda what I like to believe too. Not deistic to the point where he doesn’t intervene at all, but intervenes enough to the point that humans can know him and know what he is like ( aka have theology ).

I’m obviously an atheist, so I don’t see the point of asking “Why God would do this or that”, but if I were to try to imagine some creator deity setting up the complex web of life we see, the fact is that survival of populations means there must be differential reproductive success; in other the fittest are more likely to pass on their genes than the weaker. In the case of viruses, well, save for the most deadly, some individuals in a population will survive, and those that survive who survived due to some slightly stronger immune system due to a slight variation in genes involved in immune system development and activity will ultimately pass on those genes with greater frequency.

I was thinking that but for some reason, my mind made exceptions to things as if they don’t have any positive features, but in the end, even things that purely cause disease can be beneficial.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Thank you everyone for commenting, your comments have been insightful. I tend to fall into despair over questions I can’t find the answers to pretty quickly. I should learn to have more faith in answers it seems

 

[Vonsalza]

we have no direct link between man and apes…

We don’t because they’ve evolved too.

Think of it as tines on a fork. There’s no direct link between the ends of two tines… other than the common ancestor they shared at the base that would be neither human nor orangutan.

And we have many examples of those.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Adding to @Vonsalza 's reply, I suggest this :
https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/_0_0/evo_07

 

[niceatheist]

upant:

we have no direct link between man and apes…

We don’t because they’ve evolved too.

Think of it as tines on a fork. There’s no direct link between the ends of two tines… other than the common ancestor they shared at the base that would be neither human nor orangutan.

And we have many examples of those.

Okay, I gotcha! I didn’t quite get your meaning.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

upant:

we have no direct link between man and apes…

We don’t because they’ve evolved too.

Think of it as tines on a fork. There’s no direct link between the ends of two tines… other than the common ancestor they shared at the base that would be neither human nor orangutan.

And we have many examples of those.

Okay, I gotcha! I didn’t quite get your meaning.

I was thinking that maybe he’s referring to this notion of “Where’s the half-human, half-silverback gorilla that proves the theory?” that so many hold.

When they were the same species, it was a few million years back and it was neither human nor silverback gorilla. Nor orangutan. Nor whatever currently extant ape you like.

Humans and apes are branches from that common ancestor.

Basic. I know. But a lot of these folks don’t know the basics. Just covering bases.

 

[upant]

Out of curiosity, what would a direct link look like?

well i guess you don’t believe this so i see your confusion with what i typed. based on the way genesis describes it there is no link.

man is created in the image of God

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

 

[upant]

Things just suddenly becoming carnivorous because of the fall is a bit farfetched to me.

it is possible that they always were carnivorous but man was protected by God in the garden. can we really say animals are evil? i don’t think so.

man is evil

 

[teresa63]

I personally believe God could have used evolution to create humans, but I have few troubles with it that I would like explained. (Pepole who don’t believe evolution is true, I dearly ask not to argue that here as thats the subject of another already exsisting thread )
So a couple of questions

1. Why would God create Viruses ? (Not really a fully evolution question, but goes with it)

Viruses may have been among the earliest forms of life on earth from which other life developed. They are the simplest and most basic forms and can withstand extremes of temperature, drought, etc. that other forms cannot. So your question may be “a fully evolution question” after all. (I believe in Intelligent design [theistic evolution] as well.)

 

[niceatheist]

So no carnivores before the Fall? What did T rex eat?

 

[Cthompson]

If we can get away from saying God created something bad (like snakes etc.) because its just a by product of evolution,

I don’t believe snakes are a bad creation. Snakes are descendants of lizards and have evolved over time to adapt to their changing ecosystems and environments. There is nothing “bad” with creatures, regardless of what some may say.

If God guides evolution, why does it sometimes fail, that is, damage the species ?

I would ask for a little more context. When you mention “damage the species”, are you referring to a genetic mutation? Species go through alterations and evolutions as part of their natural existence.

Your version of “fail” may not be God’s version of fail. What we perceive to be a total failure in genomic sequencing or evolutionary adaptations may not be actually a failure. Since we do not exist outside of time the way God does, we are not able to see the evolutionary purpose of certain “failures”.

Why would God create Viruses ?

I don’t know. Maybe to regulate the ecosystems and ensure evolutionary change and a development of a more fit species that is adapted to certain viruses.

A question like this could not be answered fully because we can only speculate.

 

[twf]

Right. We have plenty of “missing links”, but some posters rely on Creationist Protestant ministries for their scientific news.
Technically we are apes. From a Catholic perspective are special apes who have been given the gift of an eternal soul… but our material bodies are ape bodies. We and chimps are incredibly similar genetically.

 

[twf]

Right. Some schools of theology suggest that Christ would have incarnated even if man had never fallen, for the eternal glories Christ will usher in far surpass what Adam and Eve experienced. The original creation was good, but still vastly fell short of the redeemed creation.
To me it’s like the Old Law. The Old Law commanded that sinners be stoned to death. The New Law in Christ is far superior.

 

[DetectiveNiko]

Yeah I just wasn’t sure if they counted towards evolution since I have heard before that viruses aren’t considered living beings.

 

[niceatheist]

Yeah I just wasn’t sure if they counted towards evolution since I have heard before that viruses aren’t considered living beings.

It’s a bit of a fierce debate. They don’t fit all the criteria we usually ascribe to living organisms; in particular they do not metabolize (so no ingestion or excretion). But the one thing you learn in biology is that whatever classification you invoke, whatever definition you create, you’re always going to have to recognize outliers that don’t fit neatly into any box. Viruses are the perfect example where the common definition of living organism, which fits most examples, doesn’t quite fit this one.

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

1.Things like viruses exist because of sin which brought sickness and suffering into the world.
3.Things like snakes exist as part of an ecosystems which rely on a hierarchy of animals to have a balance of predators and preys. Since pests like rats reproduce a lot, it is necessary for there to be some predators to moderate them.

 

[niceatheist]

Things like viruses exist because of sin which brought sickness and suffering into the world. Things like snakes exist as part of an ecosystems which rely on a hierarchy of animals to have a balance of predators and preys. Since pests like rats reproduce a lot, it is necessary for there to be some predators to moderate them.

But viruses serve a similar purpose to predators. In both cases, they will tend to reduce populations, weed out weaker members of a population, and assist in the long term healthy and viability of a population. You’re trying to ascribe some sort of moral purpose to viruses, and they are no more moral or immoral than my housecat killing a mouse. They are just part of the biosphere of this planet, and likely are as old as life itself, if not, depending on your definition of life, possibly even older.

 

[Francis]

Wisdom 2:24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his company experience it.

1. Because of sins of mankind they brought this upon themselves,that"s why God created the Virus besides ,their is also greater good their are so many employed ,it created millions of jobs ,they live their livelihood etc the list is endless
2. God knows when man sinned every thing became temperately,all things pass away God alone suffices Romans 8:20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labor pains until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes[p] for what is seen? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Wisdom 1:2-4 because he is found by those who do not put him to the test,and manifests himself to those who do not distrust him.3 For perverse thoughts separate people from God,and when his power is tested, it exposes the foolish;4 because wisdom will not enter a deceitful soul,or dwell in a body enslaved to sin.Do not invite death by the error of your life,or bring on destruction by the works of your hands;13 because God did not make death,and he does not delight in the death of the living.14 For he created all things so that they might exist;the generative forces of the world are wholesome,and there is no destructive poison in them,and the dominion of Hades is not on earth.

Wisdom 19:18 For the elements changed places with one another,as on a harp the notes vary the nature of the rhythm,while each note remains the same.This may be clearly inferred from the sight of what took place.19 For land animals were transformed into water creatures,and creatures that swim moved over to the land.20 Fire even in water retained its normal power,and water forgot its fire-quenching nature.21 Flames, on the contrary, failed to consume the flesh of perishable creatures that walked among them,
nor did they melt the crystalline, quick-melting kind of heavenly food.

Baruch 3:33- the one who sends forth the light, and it goes; he called it, and it obeyed him, trembling;
34 the stars shone in their watches, and were glad;he called them, and they said, “Here we are!”
They shone with gladness for him who made them.35 This is our God;no other can be compared to him.

Revelation 4:11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”
3)

 

[Cthompson]

You’re trying to ascribe some sort of moral purpose to viruses, and they are no more moral or immoral than my housecat killing a mouse.

Exactly. Before the fall, viruses still brought sickness into the world because that’s one of the functions of viruses. If a virus didn’t bring sickness into the world, then it wouldn’t be a virus.