question for women: modesty and doctors

[JesusIsMercy]

Firstly you did nothing wrong. You are still a chaste virgin.

Secondly, if he did a pelvic exam without wearing gloves, call the authorities ASAP. That is a major issue. He needs to wear gloves to prevent infection. And your mom was right there and said nothing?

no it was a breast exam

I probably can’t offer the indepth advice that could answer your concerns adequately.

But what I can say is I too would feel violated. You were put in a very, very awkward position by your mom. The decision and control over if and when you see an OB/GYN for your first exam was taken away from you. That’s not fair. Its your body, you should say when and who gets to give the exam. I certainly would have major concerns about the whole situation and would feel very angry and confused. The boundaries between patient and doctor were blurred by the very fact that your mom was involved enough in the visit to even be able to suggest that a doctor in a walk-in clinic or office should take a look at your medical issue. The whole situation sounds inappropriate from the description you have given.

that’s kind of how I feel too… I understand my mom though because she was very worried about me. Her motivation was concern about my health. I get that… I just feel very badly about what happened. I also feel guilty because I put the doctor in an occasion of sin. Even if he didn’t have any impure thoughts, I put him into a situation where he could have been tempted, or was. I shouldn’t have told my mom about any of this and made her worry… I feel like I sinned and made others sin also. I just didn’t want any man to see that part of me if he isn’t married to me. It just doesn’t feel right in my heart, you know what I mean? I have no idea what to do now or how to live with this… should I talk to a priest at Confession? I feel guilty so I probably should mention it just from a moral perspective, using general language. (“I needed a medical examination that was private in nature and I went to see a male doctor and now I feel like I sinned against modesty and also put him in an occasion of sin” etc).

 

[LilyM]

Put it this way - if a male doctor is going to lust after you he’s going to lust after you. Just like any other man. You certainly need not be undressed or dressed immodestly to incite lust.

There are (if memory serves) plenty of cases of psychiatrists and dentists acting inappropriately towards their patients - probably as many or more so than ob/gyns - and no-one disrobes to go on a psychiatrist’s couch or in the dentist’s chair.

 

[Cat]

He did the breast exam without gloves to increase the likelihood that he would find a lump. In the last few years, many young women your age (under age 30) are being diagnosed with breast cancer, and often their cancers are rapid-growing and very hard to cure. (No one is quite sure why.) It is appropriate for the doctor to examine even young woman for breast lumps.

Besides even if you don’t have cancer, you could have other abnormalities of the breast that the doctor is trying to find.

No good doctor will take a chance on missing a tiny lump–had he found something, he would have a better chance of saving your life.

YOU try feeling very small things with gloves on–you’ll see what I mean. No matter how thin they are, gloves decrease sensitivity and make it hard to feel.

I personally think you need to be careful and do some work on your issues. This is just my opinion, but I think you are being ungracious and judgemental and even a little mean to ascribe sin to a perfectly innocent man who is just doing his job. With very rare exceptions, doctors do what they do to protect and heal people. It is wrong, IMO, to assume that they are lusting after you. IMO, that accusation almost seems prideful–why on earth would you be more likely to inflame a man’s passions than all the other hundreds of women that he does pelvic exams on?

My personal opinion about this thread is that you need to talk to a priest about possible scrupulosity. I am an older woman who has raised two daughters, in case you are wondering. I’ve had male and female doctors. To me, they are doctors first, then male and female. I do realize that there may be other issues here that you are not sharing with us. I hope I don’t sound too harsh, but I feel very badly for the poor doctor that you are, in your mind, accusing of grave sin.

 

[NoxSineStellae]

JesusIsMercy, do you view other pure, chaste women and girls who see male gyns as being made unchaste and impure by the experience?

If your answer is “no, of course not!” why ever would you think it about yourself?

I was sexually abused as a small child. Sometimes when I get down I feel like it made me dirty or impure or damaged. But when I apply that to any other person in the entire world I am HORRIFIED at the thought. It’s absolutely ridiculous! So why am I thinking it about myself?

The answer is because I hate myself and don’t feel worthy of God’s love. I feel like there’s something fundamentally wrong with me and he can’t possibly ever love me. And it is prideful because I feel like I’m being held to higher standards…God loves everyone else no matter what, but me…I’m damned if I do, damned if I don’t, and I’m probably damning everyone around me too. None of that is true, I know logically, but it’s still hard to try and work through and deal with. A lot of it has to do with my poor relationship with my father, I know. Never underestimate how much a young woman’s relationship with and view of God is influenced by her earthly father, for better or for worse.

I would examine your feelings on why you feel as though you have committed a sin against chastity by having a breast exam done by a medical professional in a medical setting with your mother present no less and why you may feel it is a sin for you but not other women and girls.

I don’t think you should go to a male doctor if you aren’t comfortable with it but you really should think long and hard about your reasoning here. That doesn’t mean, “Get over it and see a man”.

I have never seen a male gyn because of my abuse but my experience with women has been very varied, from wonderful and gentle to verbally cruel and so rough I bled for 3 days afterwards.

I did have an elderly male cardiologist who would make me put on the paper gown with the opening in the back, and then slowly rip it open in the front to better listen to my heart (and move my breasts “out of the way”) I was a teen at the time and was too weirded out and scared to say or do anything. Lustful perverts come in all ages, both sexes, and every profession. YOU aren’t being “impure” by happening upon one.

 

[Prayerfully]

He did the breast exam without gloves to increase the likelihood that he would find a lump. In the last few years, many young women your age (under age 30) are being diagnosed with breast cancer, and often their cancers are rapid-growing and very hard to cure. (No one is quite sure why.) It is appropriate for the doctor to examine even young woman for breast lumps.

Besides even if you don’t have cancer, you could have other abnormalities of the breast that the doctor is trying to find.

No good doctor will take a chance on missing a tiny lump–had he found something, he would have a better chance of saving your life.

YOU try feeling very small things with gloves on–you’ll see what I mean. No matter how thin they are, gloves decrease sensitivity and make it hard to feel.

I personally think you need to be careful and do some work on your issues. This is just my opinion, but I think you are being ungracious and judgemental and even a little mean to ascribe sin to a perfectly innocent man who is just doing his job. With very rare exceptions, doctors do what they do to protect and heal people. It is wrong, IMO, to assume that they are lusting after you. IMO, that accusation almost seems prideful–why on earth would you be more likely to inflame a man’s passions than all the other hundreds of women that he does pelvic exams on?

My personal opinion about this thread is that you need to talk to a priest about possible scrupulosity. I am an older woman who has raised two daughters, in case you are wondering. I’ve had male and female doctors. To me, they are doctors first, then male and female. I do realize that there may be other issues here that you are not sharing with us. I hope I don’t sound too harsh, but I feel very badly for the poor doctor that you are, in your mind, accusing of grave sin.

But I think a point some may be missing on here is that she feels violated, because the choice was made for her to have a male doctor (which she clearly didn’t want) to exam her for a non-emergent situation. We can all agree that she didn’t sin, nor did she lead the doctor into sinning, but she feels violated because her mom insisted on this exam that was done against her wishes. A right to choose who exams her in a non-life threatening situation was taken away from her and it sounds like her mom could care less. That brings me to tears that a mom didn’t respect her daughter’s sense of modesty, privacy, and dignity. This single incident has caused the OP a great deal of emotional grief.

 

[smallcat]

I was going to post a reply but Cat expressed my own thoughts and feelings about this issue better than I could have done myself.

If you are more comfortable with a female physician, then by all means, find yourself one. But to believe it is somehow a sin, or even a near occasion of sin, to have a physical exam (pelvic, breast, or otherwise) performed on you by a male doctor, is not acceptable and warrants some self-examination as to why you may feel this way.

 

[PatriceA]

But I think a point some may be missing on here is that she feels violated, because the choice was made for her to have a male doctor (which she clearly didn’t want) to exam her for a non-emergent situation. We can all agree that she didn’t sin, nor did she lead the doctor into sinning, but she feels violated because her mom insisted on this exam that was done against her wishes. A right to choose who exams her in a non-life threatening situation was taken away from her and it sounds like her mom could care less. That brings me to tears that a mom didn’t respect her daughter’s sense of modesty, privacy, and dignity. This single incident has caused the OP a great deal of emotional grief.

Exactly. There are two separate issues going on here, and the situation with the mom not at least acknowledging her daughter’s right to make her own decisions regarding doctors is probably compounding the other issues of modesty, sinning and seeing a male doctor. I would think the very fact that the mother even suggested to the doctor that there was another problem violates doctor/patient privacy.

 

[JesusIsMercy]

Cat,

where did I accuse the doctor of grave sin??

I actually said that** I **put him in a near occasion of sin, where he might be tempted… I put the blame of this on me, not on him, he was just doing his job. I didn’t blame him or my mom, I said I should have not done this because I felt it was wrong but went against my conscience.

Please read my posts again:

I also feel guilty because I put the doctor in an occasion of sin. Even if he didn’t have any impure thoughts, I put him into a situation where he could have been tempted, or was.

I feel completely violated, even though he wasn’t creepy at all and treated the matter very professionally. I didn’t get the sense that he was looking at me lustfully or anything, but in the way a doctor should.

so where did I accuse the doctor? I only accused myself of immodesty.

I prayed about this a lot and I do still feel that I had sinned. But I think God has shown me that He can forgive me and I just need to open up to His mercy. Now…if I didn’t sin, then all is good. but I think I should still confess this, because I feel it on my conscience.

Do other women sin if they see a male GYN? That’s not for me to decide. I only know that I felt it was wrong but still did it. I went against my conscience and that’s not right.

 

[EasterJoy]

Cat,

where did I accuse the doctor of grave sin??

I actually said that** I **put him in a near occasion of sin, where he might be tempted… I put the blame of this on me, not on him, he was just doing his job. I didn’t blame him or my mom, I said I should have not done this because I felt it was wrong but went against my conscience.

Please read my posts again…so where did I accuse the doctor? I only accused myself of immodesty.

I prayed about this a lot and I do still feel that I had sinned. But I think God has shown me that He can forgive me and I just need to open up to His mercy. Now…if I didn’t sin, then all is good. but I think I should still confess this, because I feel it on my conscience.

Do other women sin if they see a male GYN? That’s not for me to decide. I only know that I felt it was wrong but still did it. I went against my conscience and that’s not right.

Let’s go back to the catechism:
2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

You can’t have your body examined without unveiling things that normally remain hidden. Although a doctor might be required to disqualify himself from the practice of some medicine or some subspecialty in it if he or she found the work a temptation to sin, the Church does not teach that a man (or a lesbian) may not properly view a woman’s private parts in order to do a legitimate medical examination. Men may be gynecologists, and women may be urologists. These are morally legitimate choices. Likewise, even secular medical practice requires that doctors respect their patient’s modesty as much as the task of examination allows.

“Do other women sin if they see a male GYN? That’s not for me to decide.” That is not quite right…it implies that maybe it is a sin. It is not. On the general question, I say this unequivocally. You may as well say, “Do other people sin by not fasting for three hours before receiving Holy Communion? That’s not for me to decide.” It implies that there is some question, when there is not. Besides, there is absolutely no question in your case. You had to see a doctor and you had no choice about who that would be. You are in the position of a religious sister whose superior chose a doctor she was not comfortable with. You felt you needed to raise an objection, and you did. Your objection was refused. You could not refuse examination, because there was a serious need for it. You had no good alternative, because you had an obligation to be seen by someone. You did nothing wrong.

Having said that, just as you are within your rights to fast for three hours prior to Holy Communion, as a discipline for yourself, just so you are within your rights to select a doctor from among those available in order to have a physician with whom you can be entirely open. You would not sin against the virtue of obedience by continuing to lobby your mother for a doctor you would find more suitable. You don’t have to have a good argument. “I would feel much more able to be entirely open, as a patient ought to be” is good enough.

If she sends you to a male gynecologist again, I would tell the doctor: “I don’t feel comfortable with you, but my mother is forcing me to be seen by you. Nothing against you, but I really want a female gynecologist. I’m not looking to discuss it with you; I just thought you deserved to know. If you would raise the possibility with my mother of helping me to find a different doctor, I would appreciate that. Otherwise, I’m only here because I have to be.”

 

[dixieagle]

Cat,

where did I accuse the doctor of grave sin??

I actually said that** I **put him in a near occasion of sin, where he might be tempted… I put the blame of this on me, not on him, he was just doing his job. I didn’t blame him or my mom, I said I should have not done this because I felt it was wrong but went against my conscience.

Please read my posts again:

so where did I accuse the doctor? I only accused myself of immodesty.

I prayed about this a lot and I do still feel that I had sinned. But I think God has shown me that He can forgive me and I just need to open up to His mercy. Now…if I didn’t sin, then all is good. but I think I should still confess this, because I feel it on my conscience.

Do other women sin if they see a male GYN? That’s not for me to decide. I only know that I felt it was wrong but still did it. I went against my conscience and that’s not right.

Honey, you need to learn about “properly formed consciences”. It is clear that - if you consider for even a moment that seeing a male physician is sinful for anyone involved (assuming that the physician is, as are most, only interested in your health and well-being) - there are issues of conscience formation and extreme scrupulosity at work here.

That said, your mom overstepped the boundaries, and is, at the very least, very insensitive to your feelings. How old are you that she was in the room with you anyway?

There are no issues for confession here, apart from a much-needed talk with your priest about the previously mentioned conscience formation and scrupulosity. And a good chat with your mom about your concerns about privacy issues is required. (I’m the mother of two grown daughters in their twenties, btw.)

 

[faithfully]

EasterJoy:

Let’s go back to the catechism:
2521

“Do other women sin if they see a male GYN? That’s not for me to decide.” That is not quite right…it implies that ]maybe it is a sin. It is not. On the general question, I say this unequivocally. You may as well say, “Do other people sin by not fasting for three hours before receiving Holy Communion? That’s not for me to decide.” It implies that there is some question, when there is not. Besides, there is absolutely no question in your case. You had to see a doctor and you had no choice about who that would be. You are in the position of a religious sister whose superior chose a doctor she was not comfortable with. You felt you needed to raise an objection, and you did. Your objection was refused. You could not refuse examination, because there was a serious need for it. You had no good alternative, because you had an obligation to be seen by someone. You did nothing wrong.

“I don’t feel comfortable with you, but my mother is forcing me to be seen by you. Nothing against you, but I really want a female gynecologist. I’m not looking to discuss it with you; I just thought you deserved to know. If you would raise the possibility with my mother of helping me to find a different doctor, I would appreciate that. Otherwise, I’m only here because I have to be.”

Easter JOy did a great job here… There really is not a lot of room for MAYBE a SIN. Can you decide if adultry is a sin? No… because it is. plane and simple. Not for some people but ok for others… nope… Sin is sin… making up sin is going to cause you a lot of grief. Trust me, we al have ENOUGH to worry about.

You might also want to consider that it’s your job to take care of your body. So, when you say you shouldn’t have told you mother of the problem… I’m gonna say. WRONG.That’s exactly what you should do. You don’t hide potential illness. WHAT IF there was something wrong? Would you feel better knowing you could have breast cancer and you ignored it? We’re not to allow ourselves to potentially die because we don’t take care of ourselves. (I know that’s extreme, but just consider the alternate for a moment.)

I’m also curious as to how old you are. I suspect younger than most of us realized. And I absolutely get not wanting to go to a male doctor. I didn’t see one for years. It’s not that it’s NOT ok… just a comfort level. At this juncture, I would talk to your mom about how exposed and violated you feel.

So… Uncomfy = YES!, Sin = NO!

 

[takers]

JesusisMercy, exactly how ‘young’ are you? I ask because a lot of posters are responding that your mother shouldn’t have forced you to go to a male doctor and that you should go to who you want to, but if you’re a minor my answer on this might be different than if you’re an adult. I reread posts but only ever got that you were ‘young’ and don’t know what that means.

 

[Prayerfully]

JesusisMercy, exactly how ‘young’ are you? I ask because a lot of posters are responding that your mother shouldn’t have forced you to go to a male doctor and that you should go to who you want to, but if you’re a minor my answer on this might be different than if you’re an adult. I reread posts but only ever got that you were ‘young’ and don’t know what that means.

ESPECIALLY if she is a minor, her mother shouldn’t have forced her to go to a male doctor, against her wishes, for a non-emergent situation. I realize you are probably going to comment about “honor thy parents” and being obedient to your parents, but this exam was to her, extremely humiliating and now she feels violated because a man, regardless of the fact he was a doctor and was trying to diagnose a possible problem, touched her breasts against her wishes, and her mother had no problem with it. In this day of female doctors and an abundance of Nurse Practitioners in the field of women’s health, this was not necessary and was, in my opinion, a bad parenting move on her mother’s part. Although her mom was simply trying to look out for her daughter’s physical health, her refusal to respect her daughter’s comfort level has now caused a new problem for her emotional health and that very well could last into her adult years and cause intimacy problems with her spouse…ask any women who feels intimately violated…whether it was rape, an aggressive boyfriend, having your choices made for you during childbirth, sexual harrassment, or simply having a medical exam against your wishes.

 

[JesusIsMercy]

thanks for all your responses… I completely understand what you are saying, but I really don’t want to blame my mom for this. I understand how she felt I just wished I made the right choice. I do feel that God has forgiven me though and I feel healed by this. I felt so horrible before but He really helped me this morning. To answer the question, I am not a minor, I am in my early twenties. Thank you

 

[PatriceA]

JesusisMercy, exactly how ‘young’ are you? I ask because a lot of posters are responding that your mother shouldn’t have forced you to go to a male doctor and that you should go to who you want to, but if you’re a minor my answer on this might be different than if you’re an adult. I reread posts but only ever got that you were ‘young’ and don’t know what that means.

She has since posted she is in her early twenties. BUT even if she had been a minor, and the fact that she needed a breast exam, that alone should have been enough for her mother to understand her concerns about seeing a male doctor and done anything and everything to make the experience more comfortable for the OP. The situation would be very different if the OP was against ANY exam, but the OP was just against seeing a male doctor. That should be respected by the mother, regardless of the age of the OP.

 

[JesusIsMercy]

I don’t live at home and my mom was visiting me and wanted to go to the doctor with me so I’ll be safe… so she didn’t want me to have to go to the doctor alone, or search for a clinic that is further away (this one is very close by). I think that’s the reason… I really wish the clinic had a female doctor though. I guess many people don’t see this as an issue. But I do feel this way. In the future I think I’ll only go to a female doctor for anything like this.

 

[takers]

ESPECIALLY if she is a minor, her mother shouldn’t have forced her to go to a male doctor, against her wishes, for a non-emergent situation. I realize you are probably going to comment about “honor thy parents” and being obedient to your parents, but this exam was to her, extremely humiliating and now she feels violated because a man, regardless of the fact he was a doctor and was trying to diagnose a possible problem, touched her breasts against her wishes, and her mother had no problem with it. In this day of female doctors and an abundance of Nurse Practitioners in the field of women’s health, this was not necessary and was, in my opinion, a bad parenting move on her mother’s part. Although her mom was simply trying to look out for her daughter’s physical health, her refusal to respect her daughter’s comfort level has now caused a new problem for her emotional health and that very well could last into her adult years and cause intimacy problems with her spouse…ask any women who feels intimately violated…whether it was rape, an aggressive boyfriend, having your choices made for you during childbirth, sexual harrassment, or simply having a medical exam against your wishes.

She has since posted she is in her early twenties. BUT even if she had been a minor, and the fact that she needed a breast exam, that alone should have been enough for her mother to understand her concerns about seeing a male doctor and done anything and everything to make the experience more comfortable for the OP. The situation would be very different if the OP was against ANY exam, but the OP was just against seeing a male doctor. That should be respected by the mother, regardless of the age of the OP.

No need to assume, people. We all know what happens when you do that.

JesusisMercy, now that I know that you’re in your twenties (as opposed to 15 or whatnot) I would have recommended that you talk to your mom about being uncomfortable and letting her know that while you appreciate her going with you to the appointment that you’re going to go to a doctor that makes you most comfortable. Mom’s can definitely be a help, but they can also be pushy when you’re in that adult/but haven’t been an adult for long position. She’s probably still making the transition that she’s not responsible for every moment of your life like she was previously and is still making an adjustment. No need to be rude, but definitely stand up for yourself. Now is the time to assert your own individuality and there are going to be times when your choices are going to be different from your parents.

Had you been under the age of 18 I would have recommended that you do some research into available female doctors in the area that would have taken your parents insurance. Then sit down with your Mom and have a discussion on why you don’t want to see a male doctor and give the recommendations for people you would like to see. Knowledge is power, so coming into a discussion proving that you’ve done your homework will do more good than just stating feelings or wants. Those can be listened to but also easily ignored whereas facts have more weight behind them.

 

[Prayerfully]

No need to assume, people. We all know what happens when you do that.

JesusisMercy, now that I know that you’re in your twenties (as opposed to 15 or whatnot) I would have recommended that you talk to your mom about being uncomfortable and letting her know that while you appreciate her going with you to the appointment that you’re going to go to a doctor that makes you most comfortable. Mom’s can definitely be a help, but they can also be pushy when you’re in that adult/but haven’t been an adult for long position. She’s probably still making the transition that she’s not responsible for every moment of your life like she was previously and is still making an adjustment. No need to be rude, but definitely stand up for yourself. Now is the time to assert your own individuality and there are going to be times when your choices are going to be different from your parents.

Had you been under the age of 18 I would have recommended that you do some research into available female doctors in the area that would have taken your parents insurance. Then sit down with your Mom and have a discussion on why you don’t want to see a male doctor and give the recommendations for people you would like to see. Knowledge is power, so coming into a discussion proving that you’ve done your homework will do more good than just stating feelings or wants. Those can be listened to but also easily ignored whereas facts have more weight behind them.

Great answers!!

(Except the part about knowing what happens when assumptions are made if you are referring to stretching the word “assume” out to describe the situation - That causes a gag reflex from cliche hell! Otherwise, if you simply meant assumptions cause us to go down a different path in our replies…well, that’s fine

 

[PatriceA]

No need to assume, people. We all know what happens when you do that.

JesusisMercy, now that I know that you’re in your twenties (as opposed to 15 or whatnot) I would have recommended that you talk to your mom about being uncomfortable and letting her know that while you appreciate her going with you to the appointment that you’re going to go to a doctor that makes you most comfortable. Mom’s can definitely be a help, but they can also be pushy when you’re in that adult/but haven’t been an adult for long position. She’s probably still making the transition that she’s not responsible for every moment of your life like she was previously and is still making an adjustment. No need to be rude, but definitely stand up for yourself. Now is the time to assert your own individuality and there are going to be times when your choices are going to be different from your parents.

Had you been under the age of 18 I would have recommended that you do some research into available female doctors in the area that would have taken your parents insurance. Then sit down with your Mom and have a discussion on why you don’t want to see a male doctor and give the recommendations for people you would like to see. Knowledge is power, so coming into a discussion proving that you’ve done your homework will do more good than just stating feelings or wants. Those can be listened to but also easily ignored whereas facts have more weight behind them.

I certainly was not assuming in my response. I don’t know really what you mean by that.

 

[twoangels]

Its not a moral issue at all. Its like nudes in art or looking at a body to help treat or diagnose it and being sexually provacative. In fact, an interesting thing to note is that modesty isn’t just what you have covered up, but how its covered and what is being drawn attention to. Men can actually find clothed woman dressed provacatively more alluring and tempting than a woman who is completely nude.

That said, for me, I’m just not comfortable going to men. That’s why I go to women. I just don’t feel safe with men. That’s my own hang up and I just know that being comfortable in the doctor’s office is important.