Question from a Seeking Jew

[MarieMarie]

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*What did you feel was missing? Child abuse and a cover up that is debasing? In the protestant churches this is dealt with immediately. No shielding these pedophiles by a Pole as well as the new Pope. I’m totally turned of with the Vatican that believes they can disobey the laws of America. Actually they feel no respect for ant laws of any country. They shield their abusing priest under the banner of the Catholicism I do not see Christianity in this hauty brazen church who lies to their parishioners and blames the molested children!
*

 

[theMutant]

Salvation by the Grace of Christ through the Catholic Church

It is through the Catholic Church that all of the graces of salvation are dispensed to us. Since the Fall of Adam, we were unable to reestablish a relationship with God. Therefore, in His infinite mercy, God chose to reestablish this relationship for us. However, in His justice, man had to do this because it was man who broke the relationship. The solution? God became man and reestablished this relationship with Him for us and thereby provided for us the grace of salvation. Praise be to God!

However, exactly how does this grace get applied to us individually? Since our original birth is in a state known as original sin, we must be born again to a relationship with God. This rebirth, as is revealed in John 3:1-5 and other places, comes to us through Baptism. It is through Baptism that one becomes a member of the Catholic Church and it is through the Catholic Church that the grace of Baptism is received and we can be saved. Hence, the teaching that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

However, what most people don’t understand is that the Church teaches three forms of Baptism. It is this misunderstanding that causes many to believe that Catholics are taught that only Catholics can go to heaven. Archbishop Fulton Sheen said that there are not a hundred people who truly hate the Catholic Church but there are millions upon millions who misunderstand what the Church teaches and hate her because of their misunderstanding.

The normal form of Baptism is based on the word itself – a cleansing in water. Just as Noah was saved from the flood, just as Moses passed through the Red Sea, and just as Jonah was swallowed up in the water and later emerged from it to preach God’s mercy to the Ninevites, we pass through the waters of Baptism to our Salvation. Baptism reestablishes our relationship with God and through Baptism we can attain Heaven. The Catholic Church teaches that everyone who is validly baptized is, in fact, a member of the Catholic Church even if they are formally separated from her as with the Orthodox and the Protestants.

However, this raises an interesting question, what about those who die before they have the opportunity to be baptized? For example, during the early days of the Church, Christians were rounded up and given the choice to either renounce Christianity or be put to death. The testimony of the Early Church reveals that many who refused to deny Christ died proclaiming His name but had not been baptized with water. Does the Church teach that they are forever doomed to the fires of Hell because they had no opportunity to get dunked in a river or have someone pour water on them? And this even though they died along side of the baptized refusing along with them to deny the Christian faith? No. Through their martyrdom, the Church teaches that they also receive at the moment of their death the same grace of baptism that others receive through water. This is referred to as “baptism of blood.” This is a testimony to the mercy, justice and love of God.

However, this raises another interesting question. What about those who come to believe in Christ and proclaim Gospel but who die before they have the opportunity to be baptized? Those who do not die a martyr’s death but who die believing in Christ before they could be baptized. Are they doomed? No. For God is just. If their lack of baptism is not due to their own failure, then they, like the martyrs, will receive the grace of baptism at the moment of their death. The Early Church preached the necessity of baptism and so, if they had come to believe what the Church was teaching they would have naturally desired to be baptized. God sees into the hearts of man and knows us better than we know ourselves. This form of baptism is referred to as the “baptism of desire.” One who desires to be baptized but dies before they have the opportunity. Again, however, this leads to more questions, what about those who don’t know Christ? Let’s take an extreme example here to set the foundation for the basic understanding of the full implications of the baptism of desire. The saving grace Christ won for us on the Cross occurred (in the realm of time) in 30 AD. What are we to say about all of the natives of North and South America who died between that time and the arrival of the first Christians to those continents? Do we believe that all those who died, no matter how good they were, for over 1000 years are doomed to Hell when they never even had the opportunity to hear the Gospel message? No.

(continued…)

 

[theMutant]

(continued from post #337)

Now, what I am going to explain is often misunderstood for heterodoxy or, at least, religious indifference. So let me state at the outset that this is a misunderstanding. What one believes is extremely important and we must all constantly seek to learn the truth and follow the truth we find.

God has written the natural law on the heart of every man. These inner promptings of the Holy Spirit guide us to seek the ultimate good. God sees into the hearts of everyone, not just the baptized and not just those who believe in Christ. So, what God looks for is the state of our soul at the moment of death to see the answer to the following question: “If this person knew the truth of Christ and of His Church and of the necessity of baptism, would he desire to receive baptism?” God alone knows the answer but, according to Catholic teaching, we rely on both the mercy and justice of God who applies His grace as He wills and not ours – and certainly is not limited to our own understanding of Him because He is infinitely beyond our understanding. Therefore, the Church entrusts those souls to the mercy of God and teaches that He is willing to grant the grace of baptism (which, as always, radiates out from Cross, through the Church, to the world) to those whose ignorance of Christ is “invincible.” In other words, whose failure to embrace the Gospel is due to no fault of their own. This, naturally, would apply to those from before the time of Christ as well.

To say “invincible ignorance” is not intended as an insult in any way. Willful ignorance would be because it means that you choose not to seek the truth. Invincible ignorance simply means that the truth has not yet been presented to you in a way that truly reveals Christ to you – so that you can say you know it is, it must be, true. God always comes to us where we are. This does not absolve us from seeking Him and embracing truth as we find it. Therefore, this teaching is not the same as heterodoxy or religious indifference. This teaching is about the disposition of one’s soul. It is about seeking God and accepting Him. I believe I posted previously in this thread that those who get to Heaven are those who love God. This is the basis of that statement. We all have misconceptions of what God truly is because we are finite beings. What will our reaction be when we see Him face to face? Will we drop our preconceived notions and desire to rush to Him? Or will we turn away, rejecting the truth?

Now, Jew_Man, you may rightly wonder what the implication of this teaching is for you on your own spiritual journey. The Catholic answer to that question is that it is known only to God and you. You have sought to learn about the Catholic faith. You have talked with priests and other Catholics. We, in turn, have tried to provide you with the answers to the question you have posed to us but we cannot presume to have overcome the stumbling blocks that have kept you from rushing headlong into the waiting arms of the Church; arms which are those of Christ Himself. I can type up 10,000 character answers to your questions and they may be (or may not be ) entirely accurate explanations of the Catholic faith but I cannot know if I have successfully addressed your needs. Maybe you need a different type of explanation than I am capable of providing, maybe I missed some unstated, perhaps even unconscious, question that would have led you “across the Tiber” to our Mother, the Church, who cares for us as we sojourn in this life. God has chosen to use humans to proclaim the Gospel to others and so you must deal with inadequate instruments like me to help you along this journey. None of us can presume to judge that we have adequately answered your questions to the point that your continued hesitance to join the Church is a willful rejection of Christ.

You are seeking the truth and I pray that you will accept each and every truth as you come to understand it. This is a life-long journey. It doesn’t end by accepting Christ and the Church. I do not know it all and I must keep seeking as well. This seeking will only end when we leave this life and enter into the next where we will see Him as He truly is, face to face for He is that for which we are searching. TRUTH itself. BEING itself. He is the I AM who spoke with Moses and the prophets and it is He who has set you on this journey toward Him. This is the hope that Christianity brings to the world. A merciful and loving God longs for us to join Him in Heaven for all of eternity. This message was first proclaimed to the Jews. Through Christ, it is now proclaimed to the world.

 

[theMutant]

Jew_Man_73:

Your reply did help, thank you. It explains the Christian belief of what became of the people who served G-d before Jesus was born. And yes, it is true. G-d is outside time, it means nothing to Him. Does anyone know if Jesus suffered in Hell? And where is the New Testament passage that says he went there?

It must be understood that the term Hell, as commonly translated, has different meanings. It is sometimes the translation for the equivalent of Hades as well as for what we tend to think of as Hell. Jesus did not suffer in Hell because the suffering in Hell is that of those who reject God. There used to be a term called “the Limbo of the Fathers.” It is believed that the just who died prior to Christ could not enter Heaven because Christ had not yet opened the way. So they existed in a state of happiness until Christ went to them after His curcifixion and personally led them to the Father.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

.

What did you feel was missing? Child abuse and a cover up that is debasing? In the protestant churches this is dealt with immediately. No shielding these pedophiles by a Pole as well as the new Pope. I’m totally turned of with the Vatican that believes they can disobey the laws of America. Actually they feel no respect for ant laws of any country. They shield their abusing priest under the banner of the Catholicism I do not see Christianity in this hauty brazen church who lies to their parishioners and blames the molested children!

Get off this thread! Your pathetic attempt to hijack this thread will not be tolerated. Instead of blaming an entire worldwide church for the actions of a few, I would re-examine my own Christianity if I were you, because you definitely do not put forth Christian love. Go away!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

.

What did you feel was missing? Child abuse and a cover up that is debasing? In the protestant churches this is dealt with immediately. No shielding these pedophiles by a Pole as well as the new Pope. I’m totally turned of with the Vatican that believes they can disobey the laws of America. Actually they feel no respect for ant laws of any country. They shield their abusing priest under the banner of the Catholicism I do not see Christianity in this hauty brazen church who lies to their parishioners and blames the molested children!

Does anyone know if I can report this person and have her banned from this thread? Please let me know. Thanks.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

jimmytoes:

In the paragraphs following, we find a number of rebuttals against “Fundamentalist” Christian teachings, and to some extent he (Kaplan) is right… We agree on a number of points. The protestant doctrine of Faith Alone is not supported by Sacred Scripture, nor by the Catholic Church.

His assertion, however, that “there was nothing in the teachings of Jesus that would have added one iota to the strength of the Torah”, is missleading. What was missing, as Jesus pointed out on numerous occasions, was a love of the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law: Jesus was decried for healing on the Sabath; Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of their hearts, but it was not always so; seeking the best seat in the synagogue, etc. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.

As far as Salvation through adhereance to the commandments, no, I would say that this is not enough, but luckily for them that do, the Mesiah has already come. Salvation comes through Jesus Christ, and his Church. This is not to say that those outside are going to hell. Anyone who is ernestly seeking the Kingdom of God can be saved because of Christ and the Church even if they don’t believe in Him or His Church.

In general, because the book addresses protestant arguments, it is easy to find it compelling, because as I said we agree on a number of points. But he paints “Christians” into one group, and all too often, the Catholic point of view will co-inside more with the Jewish point of view.

I hope there are some chapter/verse people here who can give you better direction, but I just wanted to address the “compelling” nature of the book as a start. I’m sure there are much better arguments than my poor attempts here.

Thanks. I guess the main problem I’m having is this: How could the Jews have misinterpreted the Messianic prophecies for all those centuries? I mean, G-d gave the Torah to the Jews, it was thier book. It seems to me that G-d would guided them and not have allowed them to misinterpret the prophecies. Please help.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Zooey:

Yes!! We know them, because their stories are in sacred scripture.But it makes sense that there were others, whose names we do not know.
Both Rahab & Ruth are really excellent examples, because their stories are so dramatic. They recognized God, & not only were their lives altered, but they entered the history of faith by following Him.

Thanks! I like the story of Rahab, by the way. A harlot who was forgiven by G-d and became a part of his people. It’s beautiful.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Zooey:

The geneology in Matthew is Joseph’s line. He was Jesus’ legal father, even though not biologically. But now look in the 3rd chapter of Luke.This is Mary’s geneolgy.She, too, was descended from King David. This means that (a) Jesus had the legal descent (through Joseph, from Solomon), &(b) the biological descent, (through His mother Mary, from Nathan).
The king at the time of the captivity in Babylon was Jechoniah(sp?). He is also called simply Coniah or Conias. If you will look into the book of the prophet Jeremiah, ch.22:20-30, you will see that God told Jeremiah that there was a curse on this king & his descendants.They were never again to sit on the throne of David.This means that no one in this line could be Messiah. This was Joseph’s line,so this did not apply to Jesus!
On the other hand, it did mean that as the legal son of Joseph, Jesus was in a direct line to inherit the throne of David** legally.** It was as the son of Mary, however, that His bloodline came. Therefore, the curse from Jeremiah was not applicable to Him, as it would have been to any blood son of Joseph’s.
I hope that this helps. God bless.

Thank you very much for your response. I’m not trying to insulting (Really I’m not, so please don’t take it that way), but this makes no sense to me. If Joseph’s line was cursed, and Joseph wasn’t even Jesus’ biological father, how could the prophecy have been fulfilled? Please help, I’m confused.

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you, I’ll go to the local Catholic bookstore here and see if I can find this book. Do you by any chance know of any scholarly works, like maybe archeaological works, that verify the existence of some of these people?

St. Peters bones were recently found exactly where they were supposed to be, under the altar of the St. Peters Basilica, also known as the Vatican.

I was lucky enough during my visit to Rome to visit the Scavi Tour which takes you into the Catecombs beneath the Basilica and beneath specifically the Main Altar which was said to rest above the final resting place of St. Peter. The crypt in which he’d originally been placed was empty, but as the excavations proceeded, they found on the side a graffiti wall with some early Christian symbols on it. Behind this wall were the bones of an individual male. They then went back and had some linguists with experience in the ancient languages and symbols look at the graffiti that had marked the wall and they realized they had found the remains of St. Peter.

Remember that they were at grave risk of being desecrated during the years of persecution, so hiding them was the only way to ensure they would be respected and yet remain in this very special place.

I believe St. Paul was buried at or near the Basillica, St. Paul outside the Wall, also in Rome, but I don’t know that for certain.

CARose

 

[Jew_Man_73]

jordan:

I am sure that there are many more qualified than I to answer your questions. I believe that we are descended from “Adam and Eve,” to whom our Creator gave special gifts. He made them like to Himself in very basic ways…creativity, wonder, wisdom, reason.

He did not make them His slaves, but gave them freedom to do His will, or to do otherwise. They chose to do otherwise, and the story of Genesis describes the impact of doing what is not Good…we came to know evil, lost paradise, and inherited pain, suffering, and death as a result.

From the earliest days, we desired to “get right” with our Creator. We remember the sacrifices of our ancestors…Abel, Noah; but most importantly, Abraham. In the mystery of our Creator revealing His love for us, the sacrifice of Abraham foreshadows Love itself. “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your beloved son, I will bless you abundantly…and in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall find blessing…” (Gen 22: 16-18)

It is because of the singular love of Abraham, that our Creator manifests Himself in a truly amazing way to the descendants of Israel. The infinite meets the finite, the Creator becomes creation. That which was not ultimately demanded of Abraham, is ultimately given by the Father. The most intense and mysterious act of complete and boundless love…“greater love hath no man”…but our Maker has love enough for us all.

Yes. Because of the love of Abraham, Israel becomes the conduit of salvation to all of creation. The purpose of God is constant…love. He fulfills His promise to return to the children of Israel, but extends his love to the ends of the earth:

So, as I read it, a promise needed to be fulfilled. As I have heard, “salvation is from the Jews.” The Father became incarnate in the Son, a Jew. He gave us the eternal covenant in His own blood, an eternal Passover sacrifice, which delivers us from slavery to sin. We need only to listen, and to love. He tells us that He will know that we love Him if we keep His commands. And, of course, He commissioned His Apostles (Jews, all) “to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Mt 28: 19-20)

May God bless you and keep you always.

jb

Thank you for your response. You’ve given me something to pray about. G-d bless you too.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

antiaphrodite:

sure, no problem!

Thanks!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

antiaphrodite:

we’re praying. don’t worry.

Thank you for your prayers. They mean alot to me.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

theMutant:

The hard questions are the best!

Catholics are taught that Jesus came as the Messiah for all mankind. He is the New Adam. Adam lost original Grace for all of his descendants. Through Jesus, that Grace is once again made available to us. However, God made a covenant with Abraham that this would be done through his descentants; it was Abraham that all the nations of the world would be blessed. Therefore, Jesus himself came to the Jews. While the New Testament records some teaching to Gentiles, He specifically, and repeatedly, stated that He was sent by the Father to the children of Abraham. When He sent out His disciples while He was still alive, he gave them specific instructions only to go out among the house of Israel. It was after His Resurrection that He told the Apostles to go out to all of the nations of the world preaching the Gospel.

So, you see, Jesus original purpose was to save everyone, but this salvation, in accordance with the Covenant with Abraham, was to come to the Gentiles through the Jews.

Okay, I think I understand a little better now, although I’m still not sure why. What about the Gentiles who were unfortunate enough to live before Jesus was born?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

theMutant:

To understand why Catholics believe in the necessity for a Savior you need to understand what we believe about the nature, the true nature, of Adam’s fall. When God created Adam and Eve, they possessed a grace (referred to as “original grace”) that gave them a direct relationship with God. They had free will but, unlike us, they did not have the tendancy to sin. They existed in a state of bliss and knew God directly. This was part of their nature as God intended for all of us.

However, when Adam sinned, his act constituted a rejection of that grace and a loss of the direct relationship with God. This altered human nature itself. Since they no longer possessed a direct relationship with God as part of their nature, and we inherit our nature through them, we also do not possess it. We are born in a state that is absent of that grace. That state is referred to as Original Sin.

So, the question now becomes, how is it that we can reach up to God to reestablish a relationship with Him? The answer is, simply, we cannot. Without that original grace, we do not possess a substantial part of the image and likeness of God with which He had originally implanted in man’s nature. So, we are hopeless unless God Himself acts on our behalf.

Now, in all justice, it was man who needed to reestablish the relationship with God because it was man who broke that relationship. However, man was incapable of doing this and so was lost. But God promised that the seed of Eve would crush the serpent and undo his evil act in tempting her and, through her, Adam. So, except for the promise of God, we were lost. We could follow the Law, but our acts would not be sufficient. How can our attempts to be good be sufficient when we fail so many times. I know that I’m not perfectly good - but surely nothing less than perfection could work. Therefore, we needed a Savior; someone who had the capability of successfully reaching up to God to reestablish our relationship with Him. But, in God, both justice and mercy are perfect and absolute. In His perfect mercy, He chose to reestablish this relationship on our behalf. In His perfect justice, man had to reestablish that relationship. The solution? God became man. He took upon Himself the burden of our sinfulness - all of our sinfulness. As man, He was able to reach up to the heights of Heaven and to reestablish our relationship to the Father.

Now, your other question about those who died before Him requires more time than I presently have so I will answer it later. I’ll put it briefly now and more fully then. The Catholic Church teaches that everyone can be saved through Jesus. This extends all the way back to Adam himself. Everyone who goes to Heaven enters through the gates opened by the Cross. The Church teaches that salvation through the Grace of Christ is available to all through the Church. This has been expressed in the often misunderstood phrase, “outside of the Church, there is no salvation.” However, the Church does not teach that only Catholics can go to Heaven. She teaches that the graces of Salvation are given to us through the Church. As I said, the explanation of this is long. I’ll put it in as soon as I can.

Thanks, but I still don’t really understand why it was necessary to send Jesus to die on the cross. Why couldn’t G-d just continue to allow people to follow the Law, and forgive their sins that way, in His mercy?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

(continued from post #337)

Now, what I am going to explain is often misunderstood for heterodoxy or, at least, religious indifference. So let me state at the outset that this is a misunderstanding. What one believes is extremely important and we must all constantly seek to learn the truth and follow the truth we find.

God has written the natural law on the heart of every man. These inner promptings of the Holy Spirit guide us to seek the ultimate good. God sees into the hearts of everyone, not just the baptized and not just those who believe in Christ. So, what God looks for is the state of our soul at the moment of death to see the answer to the following question: “If this person knew the truth of Christ and of His Church and of the necessity of baptism, would he desire to receive baptism?” God alone knows the answer but, according to Catholic teaching, we rely on both the mercy and justice of God who applies His grace as He wills and not ours – and certainly is not limited to our own understanding of Him because He is infinitely beyond our understanding. Therefore, the Church entrusts those souls to the mercy of God and teaches that He is willing to grant the grace of baptism (which, as always, radiates out from Cross, through the Church, to the world) to those whose ignorance of Christ is “invincible.” In other words, whose failure to embrace the Gospel is due to no fault of their own. This, naturally, would apply to those from before the time of Christ as well.

To say “invincible ignorance” is not intended as an insult in any way. Willful ignorance would be because it means that you choose not to seek the truth. Invincible ignorance simply means that the truth has not yet been presented to you in a way that truly reveals Christ to you – so that you can say you know it is, it must be, true. God always comes to us where we are. This does not absolve us from seeking Him and embracing truth as we find it. Therefore, this teaching is not the same as heterodoxy or religious indifference. This teaching is about the disposition of one’s soul. It is about seeking God and accepting Him. I believe I posted previously in this thread that those who get to Heaven are those who love God. This is the basis of that statement. We all have misconceptions of what God truly is because we are finite beings. What will our reaction be when we see Him face to face? Will we drop our preconceived notions and desire to rush to Him? Or will we turn away, rejecting the truth?

Now, Jew_Man, you may rightly wonder what the implication of this teaching is for you on your own spiritual journey. The Catholic answer to that question is that it is known only to God and you. You have sought to learn about the Catholic faith. You have talked with priests and other Catholics. We, in turn, have tried to provide you with the answers to the question you have posed to us but we cannot presume to have overcome the stumbling blocks that have kept you from rushing headlong into the waiting arms of the Church; arms which are those of Christ Himself. I can type up 10,000 character answers to your questions and they may be (or may not be ) entirely accurate explanations of the Catholic faith but I cannot know if I have successfully addressed your needs. Maybe you need a different type of explanation than I am capable of providing, maybe I missed some unstated, perhaps even unconscious, question that would have led you “across the Tiber” to our Mother, the Church, who cares for us as we sojourn in this life. God has chosen to use humans to proclaim the Gospel to others and so you must deal with inadequate instruments like me to help you along this journey. None of us can presume to judge that we have adequately answered your questions to the point that your continued hesitance to join the Church is a willful rejection of Christ.

You are seeking the truth and I pray that you will accept each and every truth as you come to understand it. This is a life-long journey. It doesn’t end by accepting Christ and the Church. I do not know it all and I must keep seeking as well. This seeking will only end when we leave this life and enter into the next where we will see Him as He truly is, face to face for He is that for which we are searching. TRUTH itself. BEING itself. He is the I AM who spoke with Moses and the prophets and it is He who has set you on this journey toward Him. This is the hope that Christianity brings to the world. A merciful and loving God longs for us to join Him in Heaven for all of eternity. This message was first proclaimed to the Jews. Through Christ, it is now proclaimed to the world.

Thank you. I need to think and pray about this.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

.

What did you feel was missing? Child abuse and a cover up that is debasing? In the protestant churches this is dealt with immediately. No shielding these pedophiles by a Pole as well as the new Pope. I’m totally turned of with the Vatican that believes they can disobey the laws of America. Actually they feel no respect for ant laws of any country. They shield their abusing priest under the banner of the Catholicism I do not see Christianity in this hauty brazen church who lies to their parishioners and blames the molested children!

Do you truly believe that sexual sins, including molestation, don’t go on and aren’t covered up in Protestant churches? Please, wake up! There is sin everywhere. The only reason the Catholic Church has received so much attention is because it’s so large and high profile. You can’t blame the many for the actions of a few.
And by the way, the Catholics on here have been loving and accepting towards me, while you have been rude, insulting, and cold-hearted. That says alot to me. Seems to me that they’re acting alot more Christian than you. At least they care about my soul. You certainly don’t seem to.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

theMutant:

It must be understood that the term Hell, as commonly translated, has different meanings. It is sometimes the translation for the equivalent of Hades as well as for what we tend to think of as Hell. Jesus did not suffer in Hell because the suffering in Hell is that of those who reject God. There used to be a term called “the Limbo of the Fathers.” It is believed that the just who died prior to Christ could not enter Heaven because Christ had not yet opened the way. So they existed in a state of happiness until Christ went to them after His curcifixion and personally led them to the Father.

Thanks, that helped!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

St. Peters bones were recently found exactly where they were supposed to be, under the altar of the St. Peters Basilica, also known as the Vatican.

I was lucky enough during my visit to Rome to visit the Scavi Tour which takes you into the Catecombs beneath the Basilica and beneath specifically the Main Altar which was said to rest above the final resting place of St. Peter. The crypt in which he’d originally been placed was empty, but as the excavations proceeded, they found on the side a graffiti wall with some early Christian symbols on it. Behind this wall were the bones of an individual male. They then went back and had some linguists with experience in the ancient languages and symbols look at the graffiti that had marked the wall and they realized they had found the remains of St. Peter.

Remember that they were at grave risk of being desecrated during the years of persecution, so hiding them was the only way to ensure they would be respected and yet remain in this very special place.

I believe St. Paul was buried at or near the Basillica, St. Paul outside the Wall, also in Rome, but I don’t know that for certain.

CARose

Thank you very much! That was enlightening and interesting! It’s interesting that a group of linguists translated the writings on the wall. I’m in grad school, studying to be a linguist.

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you very much for your response. I’m not trying to insulting (Really I’m not, so please don’t take it that way), but this makes no sense to me. If Joseph’s line was cursed, and Joseph wasn’t even Jesus’ biological father, how could the prophecy have been fulfilled? Please help, I’m confused.

Please don’t worry, I seriously doubt that anyone who has read even a part of this thread could believe you intend to be insulting. Your questions are to the point and respectful, as you seek to convince your mind of all that your heart is feeling. Soon it will be a matter of taking that leap of Faith, but first you need to work through these things. I hope and pray that we do more help than harm.

(Oh, and I liked your reponse to Marie Marie In the future if you want to report a bad post, you can do so by clicking on the little Yield sign in the right hand corner of the post. )

Joseph is Jesus’s adoptive, therefore legal son. As such, he was in line to inherit his possessions and position in life. This includes his position in the line of Solomon. I was especially impressed by Zooey’s response above on this topic. She understood things I haven’t previously heard, but as I know through Faith that what the Catholic Church teaches, I am comforted in knowing that when I don’t have the answer, it is merely due to my own lack of knowledge.

You also seem stuck on Why would God allow the Jews to miss the Messiah? I think it comes down to several things:

• God allows us our own Free Will, including the ability to reject him.
• God has a reason that we don’t know for maintaining the Jews as a seperate people.
• Divine Mystery

IMHO, I think you may be approaching the point where Prayer rather than study is your best course of action.

God Bless,

CARose