Question from a Seeking Jew

[Jew_Man_73]

I’m also still a little confused about “salvation.” I’m having a hard time understanding how believing in Jesus saves a person. I’m also having a hard time understanding why one has to believe in Jesus to be saved in the first place. Why isn’t worshiping G-d and obeying His Laws enough? Why can’t you be saved that way? (Of course, Jews believe that this is enough.) What about all the people who served Him before Jesus was born? Aren’t they saved? My RCIA director tried to explain this to me, but I still don’t understand. Anyone who can possibly help answer these questions, feel free.

P.S.: Does anyone know of any books specifically about salvation doctrine? Not books about Jews, but books about the Catholic doctrine of salvation, a good book that explains it thoroughly. Can anyone help?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

theMutant:

Well, there are plenty of references from within the Church. The writings of the Early Church mention them a lot going all the way back to the late first and early second centuries (remember that Jesus died near the middle of the first century and Peter and Paul died jus past the middle of it; around 64 - 67 AD). As far as writings from outside the Church go, they might be hard to track down for they are mostly ancient Roman writers. I believe that there are written records at least of Peter and Paul whom the Romans executed. Remember that, at least in the beginning, the Romans considered Christianity as a sect of Judaism (since it arose in Judea). I don’t believe that it was until some time after the destruction of the Temple that they started to regard Christianity as a religion on its own. However, both Peter and Paul were martyred prior to that. The other Apostles were in more remote areas so there might not be as much written about them as for Peter and Paul who were martyred in Rome itself.

If I can find any specific references, I’ll let you know.

Thanks, I’d appreciate whatever you come up with.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

theMutant:

Please note that I’m not saying that the prayer is in any way incompatible with Catholicism. We do and should pray that God will be with everyone no matter what.

Oh, ok. Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering.

 

[gregw74]

Jew_Man…

Check out the latest entry in the Journey Home audio archive. I have been following this post quite a bit and have found it quite fascinating. I don’t think I’ve every kept tabs on a post before like I have this one. I hope you’re finding the answers you are seeking. Anyway, here is the URL where you can find the latest Journey Home episode. It’s the entry titled “Jewish convert former Reformed Episcopal minister”

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/SeriesSearchprog.asp?SeriesID=-6892289&NewList=&T1=journey
God Bless!

• Greg

 

[Jew_Man_73]

gregw74:

Jew_Man…

Check out the latest entry in the Journey Home audio archive. I have been following this post quite a bit and have found it quite fascinating. I don’t think I’ve every kept tabs on a post before like I have this one. I hope you’re finding the answers you are seeking. Anyway, here is the URL where you can find the latest Journey Home episode. It’s the entry titled “Jewish convert former Reformed Episcopal minister”

ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/SeriesSearchprog.asp?SeriesID=-6892289&NewList=&T1=journey
God Bless!

• Greg

Thank you. I’ll listen to this today. Thank you for your well wishes.

 

[CARose]

Hi again,

Perhaps I can shine some light on some of your questions. I’m glad Mutant took a stab at non-NT sources regarding Jews like Peter and Paul coming to know Christ from within Judaism. I’m not too up on early writters, if you’re looking for non-christians. If you don’t mind Christian writers, you may want to take a look at Eusebius’s Early Church History. He wrote it in, I believe, the early 400’s, so it covers some of the early stuff. It comes in a small paperback, so it’s not too hard to find. (although I can’t seem to find my copy, or I would confirm the title and publisher for you).

But, on to things I think I can better answer . You asked:

Jew_Man_73:

… If Jesus is the Messiah, did he specifically come only to save the Jews, or did he come to save everyone?

Yes, it was God’s intention from the beginning of time to bring all humanity into his kingdom, as his adopted children. This was what he created Adam and Eve for, that they might know and love him. After the fall of humanity with that first sin in the Garden of Eden, humanity went forth with a veil seperating them from God. This veil was seen in seperating all but the priest from the Holy of Holys in the Temple, which is why Jews are forbidden to walk on the temple mount, for fear they may inadvertently enter the area that is reserved for the Holy of Holys.

But throughout history, God has sought to be mankind back to him, and man has repeatedly sought false gods (think of when Moses was on Mt. Moriah and they made the Golden Calf, argh!, or when he nearly destroyed all humanity but spared Noah and his family). God selected Abraham and Abraham showed his full willingness to cooperate with God’s will when he was willing to sacrifice even his own beloved son Issak. This was a foreshadowing of the supreme sacrifice that God made for man through his son, Jesus Christ. A man, Abraham, showed us that perfect human love of God is capable of making even such a sacrifice as this. And through accepting God’s love, a covenant was made with God and all the decendants of Abraham that they would be a special people. (what’s interesting to remember is that even Ishmael is a decendant of Abraham, but that’s another story).

Though out the old testament, we find stories of those who are not of the family of Abraham, and yet they come to know and love God, the one true God.

more to come …

CARose

 

[CARose]

cont.
The story of Ruth is one example of how a non-Jewish woman cleaved to her mother-in-law and said “Your God will be my God, and your people will be my people” and this was after her husband had died. She became a very holy Jewish mother and is in the direct line of Jesus from David.

There are other stories. You may also want to read Tobit. This and six other books of the Old Testament are not found in the Protestant versions of the bible. One of the reasons is that they were not included in the Jewish Scriptures after the fall of the Temple (actually I think it was about 100 yrs later they were dropped). These books were the newest additions to scripture and were included in the Septuigent, the Greek translations of the Hebrew Canon, as maintained in Alexandria in their incredible libraries. These texts hold many references to the Messiah being for all people, as the Jewish people were being prepared for the difficult truth that God was for all humanity.

more to come…

CARose

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

Here’s what I mean by this: Was Jesus’ original purpose for coming to earth only to save the Jews, and then when the Gentiles rejected him, G-d “changed His mind” and decided to extend the offer of salvation to the Gentiles as well. Or, was Jesus’ original purpose, from the very beginning, for coming to earth to offer salvation to everyone? Sorry if I keep asking hard questions, but I’m confused on this.

This isn’t a difficult question at all. We don’t consider refusing Christ to be a step which in any way precedes his interest in saving someone, if that’s what you’re wondering.

Christ came to save all humanity, including those who were born before he came.

Are you aware of the Trinity? Christ is God. God is three distinct persons, One Divine Nature, One God. There is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They are all together a single entity, but each is distinct from the other. This is a divine mystery and it’s full understanding is beyond human reason, but with faith we can accept it and know that it is true.

God is outside of time. Therefore, anything that happens to God is also outside of time, such as the Crucifixion. This is how Mary could be born without Original Sin. She was saved by her Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ through his crucifixion, applied when she was conceived, so that she might be sufficiently pure to serve as the recepticle for the Holy of Holys.

This is how the salvation of Jesus Christ is applied to those who came before Jesus. The gates of Heaven were opened by Jesus at a point in time for humanity, but it was an act open to those throughout time. After he was crucified, Christ descended to I think it was Gehanna (correct me here if I’ve got my Jewish Hell vs holding area wrong). Exactly what he accomplished there is not known to me, but I believe he provided the personal judgement for those awaiting it. Those adequately receptive to him, remember, he IS God, were received into heaven. Those who chose to reject God would be allowed to do so, however such a rejection, once you see God without the veil, do so for all eternity.

I hope this helps,

CARose

 

[Pete2]

CARose:

Another interesting quote, I don’t recall the source and I’ll probably butcher it, is:

“the Old Testament is the New concealed”

“The New Testament is the Old Revealed”

If you’re interested in this concept, I highly recommend you check out “Learn the Bible in 24 Hours”, by Chuck Missler. He is not a Catholic, he is Protestant, but in the interest of being open minded to new ideas and Judaism as your point of reference, this book is great. It shows how the entire Old Testament points to the New Testament, and you come away thinking that there is no way Jesus is not the Messiah.

Pete

 

[CARose]

Pete2:

If you’re interested in this concept, I highly recommend you check out “Learn the Bible in 24 Hours”, by Chuck Missler. He is not a Catholic, he is Protestant, but in the interest of being open minded to new ideas and Judaism as your point of reference, this book is great. It shows how the entire Old Testament points to the New Testament, and you come away thinking that there is no way Jesus is not the Messiah.

Pete

Thanks Pete, I’ll keep my eyes open for it.

I also recently came across the source of the quote in the first place. It was St. Augustine who first stated it.

CARose

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Hi again,

Perhaps I can shine some light on some of your questions. I’m glad Mutant took a stab at non-NT sources regarding Jews like Peter and Paul coming to know Christ from within Judaism. I’m not too up on early writters, if you’re looking for non-christians. If you don’t mind Christian writers, you may want to take a look at Eusebius’s Early Church History. He wrote it in, I believe, the early 400’s, so it covers some of the early stuff. It comes in a small paperback, so it’s not too hard to find. (although I can’t seem to find my copy, or I would confirm the title and publisher for you).

But, on to things I think I can better answer . You asked:

Yes, it was God’s intention from the beginning of time to bring all humanity into his kingdom, as his adopted children. This was what he created Adam and Eve for, that they might know and love him. After the fall of humanity with that first sin in the Garden of Eden, humanity went forth with a veil seperating them from God. This veil was seen in seperating all but the priest from the Holy of Holys in the Temple, which is why Jews are forbidden to walk on the temple mount, for fear they may inadvertently enter the area that is reserved for the Holy of Holys.

But throughout history, God has sought to be mankind back to him, and man has repeatedly sought false gods (think of when Moses was on Mt. Moriah and they made the Golden Calf, argh!, or when he nearly destroyed all humanity but spared Noah and his family). God selected Abraham and Abraham showed his full willingness to cooperate with God’s will when he was willing to sacrifice even his own beloved son Issak. This was a foreshadowing of the supreme sacrifice that God made for man through his son, Jesus Christ. A man, Abraham, showed us that perfect human love of God is capable of making even such a sacrifice as this. And through accepting God’s love, a covenant was made with God and all the decendants of Abraham that they would be a special people. (what’s interesting to remember is that even Ishmael is a decendant of Abraham, but that’s another story).

Though out the old testament, we find stories of those who are not of the family of Abraham, and yet they come to know and love God, the one true God.

more to come …

CARose

Thank you, I’ll go to the local Catholic bookstore here and see if I can find this book. Do you by any chance know of any scholarly works, like maybe archeaological works, that verify the existence of some of these people?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

cont.
The story of Ruth is one example of how a non-Jewish woman cleaved to her mother-in-law and said “Your God will be my God, and your people will be my people” and this was after her husband had died. She became a very holy Jewish mother and is in the direct line of Jesus from David.

There are other stories. You may also want to read Tobit. This and six other books of the Old Testament are not found in the Protestant versions of the bible. One of the reasons is that they were not included in the Jewish Scriptures after the fall of the Temple (actually I think it was about 100 yrs later they were dropped). These books were the newest additions to scripture and were included in the Septuigent, the Greek translations of the Hebrew Canon, as maintained in Alexandria in their incredible libraries. These texts hold many references to the Messiah being for all people, as the Jewish people were being prepared for the difficult truth that God was for all humanity.

more to come…

CARose

I haven’t read any of the Apocryphal books. I’ll give it a try. I do know, however, that Judas Maccabeus was a real man. (I and II Macabees.) I’ve read non-Biblical Jewish works about him. It’s confusing as to why Jews acknowledge him as having been a real person, but don’t include I and II Macabees in the TANAKH. Do you know why? Why would the Jews drop I and II Macabees if Judas Maccabeus was a real person?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

This isn’t a difficult question at all. We don’t consider refusing Christ to be a step which in any way precedes his interest in saving someone, if that’s what you’re wondering.

Christ came to save all humanity, including those who were born before he came.

Are you aware of the Trinity? Christ is God. God is three distinct persons, One Divine Nature, One God. There is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They are all together a single entity, but each is distinct from the other. This is a divine mystery and it’s full understanding is beyond human reason, but with faith we can accept it and know that it is true.

God is outside of time. Therefore, anything that happens to God is also outside of time, such as the Crucifixion. This is how Mary could be born without Original Sin. She was saved by her Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ through his crucifixion, applied when she was conceived, so that she might be sufficiently pure to serve as the recepticle for the Holy of Holys.

This is how the salvation of Jesus Christ is applied to those who came before Jesus. The gates of Heaven were opened by Jesus at a point in time for humanity, but it was an act open to those throughout time. After he was crucified, Christ descended to I think it was Gehanna (correct me here if I’ve got my Jewish Hell vs holding area wrong). Exactly what he accomplished there is not known to me, but I believe he provided the personal judgement for those awaiting it. Those adequately receptive to him, remember, he IS God, were received into heaven. Those who chose to reject God would be allowed to do so, however such a rejection, once you see God without the veil, do so for all eternity.

I hope this helps,

CARose

Your reply did help, thank you. It explains the Christian belief of what became of the people who served G-d before Jesus was born. And yes, it is true. G-d is outside time, it means nothing to Him. Does anyone know if Jesus suffered in Hell? And where is the New Testament passage that says he went there?

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Pete2:

If you’re interested in this concept, I highly recommend you check out “Learn the Bible in 24 Hours”, by Chuck Missler. He is not a Catholic, he is Protestant, but in the interest of being open minded to new ideas and Judaism as your point of reference, this book is great. It shows how the entire Old Testament points to the New Testament, and you come away thinking that there is no way Jesus is not the Messiah.

Pete

Thank you for your help, but I still have a question. I don’t understand how the geneology is done. According to Jewish tradition of the time, The lineage is traced through the father, as can be seen in the book of Matthew. However, Joseph was not Jesus’ biological father. Also, it was prophesied that the Messiah would come from the line of David through Solomon, but Jesus came from the line of David through Nathan, and then through Mary. (I read all this on www.jewsforjudaism.org) If Jesus didn’t fulfill all the requirements for being the Messiah, how can he be the Messiah? I’m confused. Can you help? If anyone needs specific Scripture references, please let me know. Thanks.

 

[Walburga]

Wow! I’m not quite the heavy hitter as most of the folks answering Jew Man’s questions. I do remember reading some notes on Gehenna once. But if I’ve got this wrong, I’m hoping someone can straighten it out. I thought I’d read that Gehenna was actually a town that had some fire and burning going on, like Centralia, PA or something like that. And when Jesus mentioned this to the people, he knew they would understand that he was talking about a place with fire and burning. It is in our Creed that we say He descended into hell. I bet some of the apologists on Catholic Answers radio could tell you how that came to be in our Creed. Heck, hopefully someone here can tell us. I’m sure it was decided at one of those big Councils in Nicea maybe.

 

[Walburga]

Oh, and I know that there are other sources for some of our history Jew Man. I know many people use a fellow’s work named “Josephus.” Maybe you are familiar with his writing as I believe he was a Jewish historian.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Walburga:

Oh, and I know that there are other sources for some of our history Jew Man. I know many people use a fellow’s work named “Josephus.” Maybe you are familiar with his writing as I believe he was a Jewish historian.

Thanks. I’m a little familiar with him.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Hi everyone.
Can someone please go to [www.jewsforjudaism.org](http://www.jewsforjudaism.org)? On the front page is a link called "The Real Messiah?". Click on it. This will take you to an online version of a Jewish apologetics book. You can read the entire thing for free online. Someone please do this and tell me what you think, what rebuttals you may have. I found this book to be very convincing, so I'd love some feedback from you guys. Thanks!

 

[jimmytoes]

Jew_Man_73:

I haven’t read any of the Apocryphal books. I’ll give it a try. I do know, however, that Judas Maccabeus was a real man. (I and II Macabees.) I’ve read non-Biblical Jewish works about him. It’s confusing as to why Jews acknowledge him as having been a real person, but don’t include I and II Macabees in the TANAKH. Do you know why? Why would the Jews drop I and II Macabees if Judas Maccabeus was a real person?

CA has a piece writen by Jason Evert that talks about when and where the OT Canon came from…Deuterocanonicals
Hope this helps.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

jimmytoes:

CA has a piece writen by Jason Evert that talks about when and where the OT Canon came from…Deuterocanonicals
Hope this helps.

Thanks, I’ll check it out.