Question from a Seeking Jew

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

I couldn’t go through all the Jewish refutations, because I simply knew that the Messiah had already arrived, in a way that had nothing to do with logic and scripture. But with this, it took me years before I was ready and willing to explore any religion again.

Once I did, I re-entered Catholicism slowly, not from a “Judaism is wrong” perspective, but from a “is Catholicism correct?” point of view. Now, after many years of being back in the Church I know that what the Jews expect is based upon their human expectations.

CARose

Thank you. I think that’s where I am right now. I’m approaching this with the mindset of “Is Catholicism right?” Every day I find new questions to ask the priest and the RCIA director at the local church here, and they’ve been really great at answering my questions. They’ve been patient, encouraging, and supportive. And neither one of them have said anything even remotely negative about the Jewish faith, which I greatly appreciate. In fact, I dropped by the church today unannounced and spoke with the RCIA director for two hours. She was glad to see me, and answered all my questions patiently, enthusiastically, and thoroughly.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

No, Public Revelation was completed in the Apostolic age. Sacred Tradition, especially as retained in the Liturgy and the Bible are the respository of Public Revelation. What Anne experienced was private revelation and no-one is required to believe private revelation. Furthermore, private revelation cannot be true if it in anyway contradicts Sacred Scripture or Dogma.

CARose

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Jew_Man_73,

I wish I could honestly assure you that all Catholics think . However, there is no truth that ALL who call themselves Catholic agree on. But, those who know their faith should understand that we are the fulfillment of Judaism.

At the same time, there are some of us who understand it more fully than others, either due to our previous experiences or our study of scripture and history and a realization of what it means.

CARose

This is interesting, Catholicism being the fulfillment of Judaism. I’m going to contact the AHC and see if they can send me any literature. Thanks.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Jew_Man_73:

Thank you. I appreciate your response. This gives me a little more of an understanding about how people are sainted in the Catholic church. So if a confirmed miracle is attributed to a particular person, then the person is naturally understood to be in Heaven?
I think it’s good that non-Catholics are invited to investigate the miracles too. That gives it more credibility, in my opinion. To not allow non-Catholics to investigate would be very one-sided, I think. Do you know if this man Franz Werfel converted to the Catholic faith or remained in Judaism?
By the way, I agree with you about Mother Teresa. If anyone ever deserved to be made a saint, she does. When she was alive, I followed every news story and article about her that I came across. I’ve always had a deep admiration for her. That may sound strange coming from a Jew, but I did. She was the embodiment of love.

Mother Teresa has been declared Blessed,she has had one of her mirales fulfilled,an Indian woman had cancer all in her abdomen and had spread to her organs,Mother Teresas relics were touched to her and her order prayed and asked her to intercede the cancer was gone the next day and confirmed by doctors all the tests were reviewed ,before and after,only one more miracle needed before canonization.

 

[CARose]

Cool Lisa,

I didn’t know the details of this miracle!

CARose

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

CARose:

Cool Lisa,

I didn’t know the details of this miracle!

CARose

God is awsome,when he allows the saints to intercede like that it is so awesome:thumbsup:

 

[antiaphrodite]

Mother Teresa rocks!!! a protestant friend of mine considers her an inspiration.

jew_man_73–great questions (i’m so glad to hear sane and respectfully worded questions about The Church from time to time!). great answers have been given.

and yes we’re still praying.

 

[theMutant]

Jew_Man_73:

So basically, do Catholics consider the Catholic faith to be “Judaism Completed”, so to speak? Not really a new religion, but a continuation of the old?

This is the essence of what I have been saying. Remember that Catholicism arose from within Judaism and it was for many years considered as a Jewish sect by outsiders (like the Romans). I know that Judaism has specific ideas about what the Messiah will do when he comes but the little information I have encountered on the topic from the Jewish perspective seems to treat Christianity as though it is something completely foreign to Judaism. All of the Apostles and nearly all of the original disciples of Jesus were Jews. The Apostle Paul was a Pharisee. The Christian interpretation of the Messiah comes to us from within Judaism.

We believe that Jerusalem has been rebuilt and that the Church is the earthly part of the New Jerusalem. We believe that the new Kingdom is not political in the sense that it is centered in a single national authority because it is now for all the nations. The Catholic Church has been engaged in political diplomacy longer than any country currently in existence. Take a look at all of the political leaders who came to the pope’s funeral. However, our emphasis is that while we are in this world, we are not “of” this world. We are citizens of the Heavenly Kingdom on our pilgrimage to the Heavenly Temple.

Jew_Man_73:

If I do end up converting to teh Catholic faith, I need to hold on to my Jewishness somehow. It’s very important to me to honor that half of my heritage. That’s why I was excited to find out about the Association of Hebrew Catholics. At this point, I’m praying every day and leaving myself open to wherever G-d leads me and whatever truths He reveals to me.

Your approach is best. Investigate and pray. We, obviously, believe that God is leading you to the Church and are hoping and praying that you complete that journey. The descision must be made based on faith, though; because you have come to believe and not for any other reason. I believe it was Rosalind Moss who once wrote that, for her, becoming Catholic was the most Jewish thing she’s ever done. Authentic Catholicism does indeed honor Judaism.

One thing that I’ve noticed about converts to Catholicism, from just about any religious background. Just about every one of which I have heard continues to honor their previous religion/church. Granted, they became Catholic because they came to believe what the Church teaches over the contradicting teachings of their previous belief but I’ve nearly always heard expressions of gratitude for what their previous faith gave to them on their journey to the Church.

 

[theMutant]

Jew_Man_73:

Do you know if this man Franz Werfel converted to the Catholic faith or remained in Judaism?

He remained in Judaism.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

What was the Rabbis name that converted during world war 2 and took the Popes name at confirmation?He wrote a book too Help me guys:ehh:

 

[theMutant]

Lisa4Catholics:

What was the Rabbis name that converted during world war 2 and took the Popes name at confirmation?He wrote a book too Help me guys:ehh:

Just did a quick search on the Catholic League web site which has a whole section related to the recent defamations of Pius XII. (catholicleague.org/pius/framemain.htm)

Israele Zolli was the Chief Rabbi of Rome and was hidden by the Church during the Nazi occupation. Although I have not read it, the book is, “Before the Dawn,” (Sheed and Ward , New York, 1945.)

 

[dranzal]

Hello.

Someone asked about NT references to Jesus as Messiah. A response listed OT prophesies and their NT fulfillments. In addition, I would like to recommend the Book of John. The first chapter establishes Jesus’ divinity.

Jn 1 1,14: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Later in Jn 8 37-59, some Jews are questioning Jesus. The exchange builds until Jesus says (58) “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” This is a clear claim to divinity.

Throughout this Gospel, Jesus is saying things like “I am in the Father and He is in Me” and “If you have seen Me you have seen the Father” and so on.

Likewise, there are numerous references throughout the NT calling Jesus the Paschal Lamb and the Paschal Sacrifice.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

Lisa4Catholics:

Mother Teresa has been declared Blessed,she has had one of her mirales fulfilled,an Indian woman had cancer all in her abdomen and had spread to her organs,Mother Teresas relics were touched to her and her order prayed and asked her to intercede the cancer was gone the next day and confirmed by doctors all the tests were reviewed ,before and after,only one more miracle needed before canonization.

That’s interesting. I watched the cermony on TV last year, the one commemorating John Paul II’s 25 year anniversary. I remember they revealed a huge picture of Mother Teresa in St. Peter’s Square. I guess that was when she was declared Blessed.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

antiaphrodite:

Mother Teresa rocks!!! a protestant friend of mine considers her an inspiration.

jew_man_73–great questions (i’m so glad to hear sane and respectfully worded questions about The Church from time to time!). great answers have been given.

and yes we’re still praying.

Thank you for the encouragement, and the prayers.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

theMutant:

This is the essence of what I have been saying. Remember that Catholicism arose from within Judaism and it was for many years considered as a Jewish sect by outsiders (like the Romans). I know that Judaism has specific ideas about what the Messiah will do when he comes but the little information I have encountered on the topic from the Jewish perspective seems to treat Christianity as though it is something completely foreign to Judaism. All of the Apostles and nearly all of the original disciples of Jesus were Jews. The Apostle Paul was a Pharisee. The Christian interpretation of the Messiah comes to us from within Judaism.

We believe that Jerusalem has been rebuilt and that the Church is the earthly part of the New Jerusalem. We believe that the new Kingdom is not political in the sense that it is centered in a single national authority because it is now for all the nations. The Catholic Church has been engaged in political diplomacy longer than any country currently in existence. Take a look at all of the political leaders who came to the pope’s funeral. However, our emphasis is that while we are in this world, we are not “of” this world. We are citizens of the Heavenly Kingdom on our pilgrimage to the Heavenly Temple.

Your approach is best. Investigate and pray. We, obviously, believe that God is leading you to the Church and are hoping and praying that you complete that journey. The descision must be made based on faith, though; because you have come to believe and not for any other reason. I believe it was Rosalind Moss who once wrote that, for her, becoming Catholic was the most Jewish thing she’s ever done. Authentic Catholicism does indeed honor Judaism.

One thing that I’ve noticed about converts to Catholicism, from just about any religious background. Just about every one of which I have heard continues to honor their previous religion/church. Granted, they became Catholic because they came to believe what the Church teaches over the contradicting teachings of their previous belief but I’ve nearly always heard expressions of gratitude for what their previous faith gave to them on their journey to the Church.

Thank you for the post. Yes, you’re right, Judaism does treat Christianity (all branches, not just the Catholic church) as if it is totally alien to Judaism. Jews believe that the Messiah will be an ordinary human man, with no divinity whatsoever. Jews beleive that he will not be worshipped, but be a political leader. I had no idea that the church started out as a sect of Judaism. That’s interesting. All this information is a little bit mind-boggling, but I’m still making my way through all of it. Basically what I’m getting is this: Jews and Christians intepret the TANAKH Messianic prophecies differently. This is why Jews don’t believe the Messiah has come yet, but Christians do. (Such as the political leader vs. the Son of God issue.) I’m still reading, praying, and asking questions. Thanks!

 

[Jew_Man_73]

theMutant:

Just did a quick search on the Catholic League web site which has a whole section related to the recent defamations of Pius XII. (catholicleague.org/pius/framemain.htm)

Israele Zolli was the Chief Rabbi of Rome and was hidden by the Church during the Nazi occupation. Although I have not read it, the book is, “Before the Dawn,” (Sheed and Ward , New York, 1945.)

Thanks. I’m going to track down this book. By the way, now that you mention it, I’ve read nasty things about Pius XII on both Jewish and Protestant websites. Alot of accusations that he collborated with the Nazis. I’m going to read this Catholic League article. I don’t know anything about Pius XII.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

dranzal:

Hello.

Someone asked about NT references to Jesus as Messiah. A response listed OT prophesies and their NT fulfillments. In addition, I would like to recommend the Book of John. The first chapter establishes Jesus’ divinity.

Jn 1 1,14: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Later in Jn 8 37-59, some Jews are questioning Jesus. The exchange builds until Jesus says (58) “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” This is a clear claim to divinity.

Throughout this Gospel, Jesus is saying things like “I am in the Father and He is in Me” and “If you have seen Me you have seen the Father” and so on.

Likewise, there are numerous references throughout the NT calling Jesus the Paschal Lamb and the Paschal Sacrifice.

Thanks, I just finished reading the four gospels and the book of Acts.

 

[CARose]

Jew_Man_73:

That’s interesting. I watched the cermony on TV last year, the one commemorating John Paul II’s 25 year anniversary. I remember they revealed a huge picture of Mother Teresa in St. Peter’s Square. I guess that was when she was declared Blessed.

Actually, JPII celebrated his 25th Anniversary the week before the beatification of Mother Teresa. I know because I was lucky enough to be there. It was awesome! I traveled on a pilgrimage with 70 others from the Sacramento Diocese. Because my daughter and husband were joining me after the pilgrimage I booked my own travel and made arrangements to arrive in Rome 2 days early so I could spend some quality time at the Vatican and the Major Basilicas. What I didn’t realize until 20 minutes after I’d confirmed my travel was that I’d be arriving the day before the Pope’s 25th anniversary and would have the opportunity to participate in that as well. (Thank you Holy Spirit!).

It was awesome to be able to participate in both events!

Jew_Man, I can’t express fully how impressed I am by your commitment to searching for the truth. You have really thrown yourself into this. I am impressed. Please know that while the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, it is made up by a family of sinners, so you will see warts, if not by now, then eventually. Please do not allow them to set you off.

You talked about the different ways that the Jews vs Christians look at the Messianic Prophesies. It makes sense that before the coming of Christ that anyone reading the prophesies would expect a humanbeing. To assume otherwise would be presumptuous, I would think. And yet, the prophesies, especially in the Septuigent (the Greek Scriptures from Alexandria), were growing increasingly clear that the Messiah was to be someone unlike any other, a virgin birth being only the start. It only makes sense that the expectation wouldn’t be that a divine person would be made present, especially since it was understood that anyone who set eyes on God would die.

And yet, God, in His infinite Mercy and Justice, knew that we needed to be redeemed from our infinite debt against His infinite love. This debt could never be paid by our finite beings and in all justice, it couldn’t simply be ignored. So it required that He send the Word, His only begotten son, to redeem mankind. God, as infinite love, has existed as a Most Holy Trinity from the beginning of time. It has been required that he be three distinct persons from the beginning for how else could he be Infinite Love without having present from all time an object of that Love and the Love (the Holy Spirit) that flows between the Father and the Son.

I’d like to suggest that you pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit while you read scripture, so that you can see the Truth that stands before you. God has promised Faith to those who seek it.

God Bless you as you continue your journey,

CARose

 

[Jew_Man_73]

CARose:

Actually, JPII celebrated his 25th Anniversary the week before the beatification of Mother Teresa. I know because I was lucky enough to be there. It was awesome! I traveled on a pilgrimage with 70 others from the Sacramento Diocese. Because my daughter and husband were joining me after the pilgrimage I booked my own travel and made arrangements to arrive in Rome 2 days early so I could spend some quality time at the Vatican and the Major Basilicas. What I didn’t realize until 20 minutes after I’d confirmed my travel was that I’d be arriving the day before the Pope’s 25th anniversary and would have the opportunity to participate in that as well. (Thank you Holy Spirit!).

It was awesome to be able to participate in both events!

Jew_Man, I can’t express fully how impressed I am by your commitment to searching for the truth. You have really thrown yourself into this. I am impressed. Please know that while the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, it is made up by a family of sinners, so you will see warts, if not by now, then eventually. Please do not allow them to set you off.

You talked about the different ways that the Jews vs Christians look at the Messianic Prophesies. It makes sense that before the coming of Christ that anyone reading the prophesies would expect a humanbeing. To assume otherwise would be presumptuous, I would think. And yet, the prophesies, especially in the Septuigent (the Greek Scriptures from Alexandria), were growing increasingly clear that the Messiah was to be someone unlike any other, a virgin birth being only the start. It only makes sense that the expectation wouldn’t be that a divine person would be made present, especially since it was understood that anyone who set eyes on God would die.

And yet, God, in His infinite Mercy and Justice, knew that we needed to be redeemed from our infinite debt against His infinite love. This debt could never be paid by our finite beings and in all justice, it couldn’t simply be ignored. So it required that He send the Word, His only begotten son, to redeem mankind. God, as infinite love, has existed as a Most Holy Trinity from the beginning of time. It has been required that he be three distinct persons from the beginning for how else could he be Infinite Love without having present from all time an object of that Love and the Love (the Holy Spirit) that flows between the Father and the Son.

I’d like to suggest that you pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit while you read scripture, so that you can see the Truth that stands before you. God has promised Faith to those who seek it.

God Bless you as you continue your journey,

CARose

Thank you. I’ve continued reading my Bible (New Testament) and praying. Some of my Jewish friends are really frustrated with me, and they’ve been begging me to come back to temple. I did go last night, but I still felt nothing. The services are beautiful and reverent, but I don’t feel anything significant there. It’s rather empty. I went to mass last week, and I’m thinking of going again tomorrow. (Haven’t made up my mind definitely yet one way or another.) The priest and RCIA director have been great througout the entire process. They’ve even introduced me to some other people in the church and I’ve started making friends. We’ve been reading the New Testament together. The RCIA director even introduced me to the choir director, who wants me to join the choir. (I told them I was on the choir at my temple.) However, I declined.
Anyway, this has been a new and unusual experience for me. I appreciate all of your prayers, and I’ll keep praying as well. Thanks.

 

[Zooey]

If you have a New Testament with cross references, you will find that many times they will lead you to the verses in the Jewish scriptures that they are related to. This can be a big help, especially starting out.
I am also praying for you in your search!!