Question from a Seeking Jew

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CARose:
Jew_Man

Did you get to daily Mass this morning. I thought of you during the 1st reading from Acts. Does your pastor give a homily at daily Mass? If you missed it, take a look at Acts 11: 1-18, it’s about the first time Peter opened the Church to non-Jews. Throughout the time Paul took the teachings of Jesus Christ to non-Jews it drew controversy from the Jews, who couldn’t conceive of such a thing.

I don’t know if you’re aware, but Paul, previously called Saul, was the top student of the top Rabbi at the Temple. He was the student who was expected to take the top position at the temple for his incredible understanding of scripture. He, against the position of his teacher, persecuted the Christians until he was slain by the Lord. Afterwards, he became the primary preacher to the Gentiles, becoming a prolific writer and teacher.

When the question of circumcision came up, he brought it to Jerusalem (Peter) for clarification (the first Council of the Church, described in the Acts of the Apostles). This is another of the supports for the truth of the Papalcy.

I know nothing about the details of Cardinal Ratzingers youth, but I would suspect it was as described by Jackman. Would you hold this against him? If you were told he in no way now holds any antisemetic views, would you expect him to offer an apology for his youthful involvement in an organization that all his peers were required to join? (I don’t know if he’s already done this.)

Would you consider this a reason to exclude him from the Papacy?

Just wondering your thoughts,

CARose
Tahnk you for the information. I’ll look up this passage. I’m still not sure about Cardinal Ratzinger. Regardless of the circumstances, I would still expect him to issue an apology to the Jewish people (And I don’t know if he’s done this or not either.) As for him being pope, I don’t know. This is a bit of a shock, and I’m still processing this information.
 
I appreciate your honesty.

I was only Jewish for 6 years and didn’t lose anyone in Nazi Germany, so I can’t claim to fully understand the visceral response to such a charge. I did have the weird experience of meeting a friend’s father and his friend, whom it turns out had been foot soldiers in Hitler’s army. These young soldiers were not guilty of the extremely gross crimes committed by the Nazi’s and yet they were even then (this was the early '80’s) anti-semitic. I was with my then fiance who was Israeli and they mistook me for also being Jewish (I hadn’t decided to convert yet). I will never forget what it was like to meet someone with hate for me merely because of who they thought I was.

I don’t believe in any way that Cardinal Ratzinger is anti-semitic, but I only caught a brief mention of the fact that he’d recently been scandalized by the mention of it in his youth. There were absolutely no details given. But he was one of Pope JPII’s closest confidants. I know JPII and I don’t think he would have drawn in someone who was anti-semitic.

But enough on that subject. How about the fact that the earliest Christians were Jews and that they had difficulty with the idea that salvation was meant for all the nations! 🙂

CARose
 
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CARose:
I appreciate your honesty.

I was only Jewish for 6 years and didn’t lose anyone in Nazi Germany, so I can’t claim to fully understand the visceral response to such a charge. I did have the weird experience of meeting a friend’s father and his friend, whom it turns out had been foot soldiers in Hitler’s army. These young soldiers were not guilty of the extremely gross crimes committed by the Nazi’s and yet they were even then (this was the early '80’s) anti-semitic. I was with my then fiance who was Israeli and they mistook me for also being Jewish (I hadn’t decided to convert yet). I will never forget what it was like to meet someone with hate for me merely because of who they thought I was.

I don’t believe in any way that Cardinal Ratzinger is anti-semitic, but I only caught a brief mention of the fact that he’d recently been scandalized by the mention of it in his youth. There were absolutely no details given. But he was one of Pope JPII’s closest confidants. I know JPII and I don’t think he would have drawn in someone who was anti-semitic.

But enough on that subject. How about the fact that the earliest Christians were Jews and that they had difficulty with the idea that salvation was meant for all the nations! 🙂

CARose
I’m stil praying about Cardianl Ratzinger. I can imagine how you felt when you met those German men. I’ve experienced anti-Semitism many times, right here in the USA. And mostly from Christians. I’ve been called “Jesus killer” several times in my life.
About the passage. What made the church change from a predominantly Jewish institution to a predominantly Gentile one? I assume this happened gradually over the course of the centuries. And why did the Jewish people have a hard time with Gentiles being saved?
 
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Jew_Man_73:
What made the church change from a predominantly Jewish institution to a predominantly Gentile one? I assume this happened gradually over the course of the centuries.
My guess is that as the Church expanded, there were more Gentiles than Jews. Catholicism is still very grounded in its Jewish roots. Who else has a hierarchy of priests or has a Sacrifice anymore?
And why did the Jewish people have a hard time with Gentiles being saved?
Probably a little bit of pride. They were the chosen people who had stayed faithful and followed the law. Then these pagans who had worshipped false gods are given salvation. They (the Jews) probably thought they (the Gentiles) didn’t deserve salvation, which they didn’t. But neither did the Jews. It is only through the mercy of the Lord, without Him all are lost.
 
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PhilNeri:
My guess is that as the Church expanded, there were more Gentiles than Jews. Catholicism is still very grounded in its Jewish roots. Who else has a hierarchy of priests or has a Sacrifice anymore?

Probably a little bit of pride. They were the chosen people who had stayed faithful and followed the law. Then these pagans who had worshipped false gods are given salvation. They (the Jews) probably thought they (the Gentiles) didn’t deserve salvation, which they didn’t. But neither did the Jews. It is only through the mercy of the Lord, without Him all are lost.
I can see that. Jews are a minority in the world, and always have been.
I can also see where the Jews of that time might have felt insulted or threatened at these new beliefs, and with the Gentiles being included. Think about it: If you were a devout Jew, raised in synagogue following the Law your entire life, and all of a sudden there is this new form of the faith popping up preaching about a Messiah who has come, and these sinful, pagan Gentiles are being included and “moving in on your territory” so to speak, would you have a problem with it? Makes sense. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. 🙂
 
The church had decided to change to a predominantly gentile area for the fact the had believed the Messiah had come and that since according to their savior they were no longer bound by mosiac law they were now a new religion with respect to their father faith. This respect sadley grew angry to the jewish faith like a rebellious teenager and went as far as trying to steel the jews lands. Thios anger died down and came to an official end when the late John Paul II went to speak to Jewish leaders for forgiveness.
 
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PopePeterII:
The church had decided to change to a predominantly gentile area for the fact the had believed the Messiah had come and that since according to their savior they were no longer bound by mosiac law they were now a new religion with respect to their father faith. This respect sadley grew angry to the jewish faith like a rebellious teenager and went as far as trying to steel the jews lands. Thios anger died down and came to an official end when the late John Paul II went to speak to Jewish leaders for forgiveness.
I remember seeing a news report on TV about Pope John Paul apologizing to the Jewish people. I guess that’s why so many Jews loved him. I remember when Jewish/Catholic relations were terrible. They seem to have gotten alot better in recent years.
 
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Jew_Man_73:
And why did the Jewish people have a hard time with Gentiles being saved?
I think PhilNeri answered this well. But this then leaves the question of how do we know it was supposed to happen in the first place. It makes me think of the story of Jonah, swallowed by a whale and only spit back out on the third day (a foreshadowing of Jesus’s resurrection) when he agrees to continue in his duty of warning the non-Jews of their imminent death if they don’t amend their ways. He was not happy to have to go and preach to Gentiles in the first place and then, when they listened and repented, he was really ticked-off that God would spare them.

I think this well foreshadows what happened with the Jews when they saw their special place with God being opened up to outsiders.

CARose
 
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CARose:
I think PhilNeri answered this well. But this then leaves the question of how do we know it was supposed to happen in the first place. It makes me think of the story of Jonah, swallowed by a whale and only spit back out on the third day (a foreshadowing of Jesus’s resurrection) when he agrees to continue in his duty of warning the non-Jews of their imminent death if they don’t amend their ways. He was not happy to have to go and preach to Gentiles in the first place and then, when they listened and repented, he was really ticked-off that God would spare them.

I think this well foreshadows what happened with the Jews when they saw their special place with God being opened up to outsiders.

CARose
That does make alot of sense. I’m sure the Jews of that day felt that they were no longer special when Gentiles started converting to the faith. That might be why the big split between Judaism and Christianity occurred. I’ve never heard of this before.
 
One of the things you’ll see with Catholicism is that we recognize that God loves all his children, so you will find he has given truth to people all over the world. Before Jesus, the only place you could find the definitive truth was with Israel.

Since Christ, the fullness of the truth is found in the Catholic Church, the fullfilment of Judaism.

CARose
 
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CARose:
One of the things you’ll see with Catholicism is that we recognize that God loves all his children, so you will find he has given truth to people all over the world. Before Jesus, the only place you could find the definitive truth was with Israel.

Since Christ, the fullness of the truth is found in the Catholic Church, the fullfilment of Judaism.

CARose
Several people on here have referred to the Catholic faith as the fulfillment of Judaism. This is really starting to spark my interest now.
 
Another interesting quote, I don’t recall the source and I’ll probably butcher it, is:

“the Old Testament is the New concealed”

“The New Testament is the Old Revealed”
 
i’m surprised that no one has mentioned the book of Hebrews which ties old testament scripture to christianity.

in addition, not only does Jesus say that he is the messiah, He specifically states thates that He is God.

John 8:58 “I solemnly declare it, before Abraham came to be, I AM”

Exodus 3:14 “God replied “I am who am”. then He further added “This is what you shall tell the Israelites. I AM sent me to you””
 
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CARose:
Another interesting quote, I don’t recall the source and I’ll probably butcher it, is:

“the Old Testament is the New concealed”

“The New Testament is the Old Revealed”
I’ve actually heard that before, from some Protestant friends of mine. I must confess, I never really bothered to stop and ponder it.
 
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jjwilkman:
i’m surprised that no one has mentioned the book of Hebrews which ties old testament scripture to christianity.

in addition, not only does Jesus say that he is the messiah, He specifically states thates that He is God.

John 8:58 “I solemnly declare it, before Abraham came to be, I AM”

Exodus 3:14 “God replied “I am who am”. then He further added “This is what you shall tell the Israelites. I AM sent me to you””
Thanks for the information. I’ll read Hebrews. I take it this book was written to Jews, or written about Jews? Can you explain the context to me please?
 
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Jew_Man_73:
Thanks for the information. I’ll read Hebrews. I take it this book was written to Jews, or written about Jews? Can you explain the context to me please?
There is some dispute in these days regarding the precise context. There is an excellent lecture that I think will help if you can manage to listen to it, Scott Hahn’s “The Book of Hebrews: The House of the Rising Son.” Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians in Jerusalem during the years leading up to the destruction of the Temple by the Romans (i.e., prior to 70 AD). There is a lot in it but I guess the basic message is that Jesus had not only established a New Covenant with its priesthood but had also said that the Temple would be destroyed.

Now the Christians living in Jerusalem were practically all Jews. Paul was telling them that they should not fight to defend the Temple because it was a lost cause and because the Temple was a symbol of the Old Covenant. Christians were told to flee when the Roman armies arrived and to do so despite whatever pleas their non-Christian loved ones may make for help in defending it.

Much of this is not said directly because this was written during one of the periods of Christian persecution.
 
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theMutant:
There is some dispute in these days regarding the precise context. There is an excellent lecture that I think will help if you can manage to listen to it, Scott Hahn’s “The Book of Hebrews: The House of the Rising Son.” Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians in Jerusalem during the years leading up to the destruction of the Temple by the Romans (i.e., prior to 70 AD). There is a lot in it but I guess the basic message is that Jesus had not only established a New Covenant with its priesthood but had also said that the Temple would be destroyed.

Now the Christians living in Jerusalem were practically all Jews. Paul was telling them that they should not fight to defend the Temple because it was a lost cause and because the Temple was a symbol of the Old Covenant. Christians were told to flee when the Roman armies arrived and to do so despite whatever pleas their non-Christian loved ones may make for help in defending it.

Much of this is not said directly because this was written during one of the periods of Christian persecution.
Thank you. I’ll try to find this Scott Hahn lecture. (I’ve read "Rome Sweet Home, by the way.) I’ll keep this context in mind when reading Hebrews.
 
Speaking of Scott Hahn, There’s an article from This Rock that might also be of interest. In the Hunt for the Fourth Cup, Scott describes his discovery (not new to the Church, but new to him) that the Passover sadar that began in the upper room (Last Supper) continued until His death on the cross.

I also found a transcript of a talk he gave on the topic, which is a quicker read…
freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/895417/posts

God Bless,
Jim
 
CARose,

I tried to reply, but your storage was exceeded. So I’ll reply here. Thank you so much for sending me that article! I cried all the way through it. I’m so happy to hear that he wasn’t a Nazi sympathizer after all. Even the Yad Vashem has put the matter to rest! I’m really happy about this, because this has been bothering me ever since you made me aware of it a few days ago. I’m so relieved, I’m still crying! :crying:

By the way, please post a thread to the article here so everyone can read it. I don’t know how to do it.
 
By the way, speaking of crying: I watched the announcement and first appearance of Pope Benedict XVI live on TV today. I cried all the way through it. I don’t know why. I was on the phone with a Protestant friend of mine while I was watching it, and he asked me why I was crying, and I couldn’t tell him because I didn’t know for sure.

While he was standing there, he just struck me as having a beautiful soul. I don’t know why I thought this, but I did. Maybe that’s why I cried. maybe I also cried because I admired Pope John Paul II so much too. I thought the whole proceeding was beautiful. I’m crying again, which is really weird. I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve cried in my life, but here lately I’ve been doing it alot. (At Mass, today, etc.) Weird.
 
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