Question from a Seeking Jew

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Yonnie:
Jew Man, have you had a chance to read “Salvation is from the Jews by Roy H. Schoeman” yet? I’m sure it will give you some very good insights on your journey.

I have seen that you mentioned it on some previous posts, but I wasn’t sure if you had read it yet.
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I haven’t been able to find it yet. I’m thinking I’ll have tog et it online.
 
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Jew_Man_73:
Thank you, I’ll go to the local Catholic bookstore here and see if I can find this book. Do you by any chance know of any scholarly works, like maybe archeaological works, that verify the existence of some of these people?
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You’ll do better on Amazon.com if you’re looking for the History of the Church by Eusibius.

For the information about the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation Chirstians, you can look or the “Apostolic Fathers” on www.History.com, The Early Church Fathers is on newadvent.org/fathers/,
Here is an aritcle on the patristic literature from the Encyclopedia Britannica- britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=67691
Here’s this nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/fathers.htm at Notre Dame University.

Peace be with you.
 
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Ignatius:
You’ll do better on Amazon.com if you’re looking for the History of the Church by Eusibius.

For the information about the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation Chirstians, you can look or the “Apostolic Fathers” on www.History.com, The Early Church Fathers is on newadvent.org/fathers/,
Here is an aritcle on the patristic literature from the Encyclopedia Britannica- britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=67691
Here’s this nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/fathers.htm at Notre Dame University.

Peace be with you.
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Thank you. I’m sure this will help alot.
 
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Jew_Man_73:
Thanks, but I still don’t really understand why it was necessary to send Jesus to die on the cross. Why couldn’t G-d just continue to allow people to follow the Law, and forgive their sins that way, in His mercy?
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Ah, this is a difficult concept for most of us. We tend to think of mercy and justice as opposing concepts. However, Catholics believe that in God both act constantly, perfectly, and without conflict. The real problem with merely following the Law is that it isn’t sufficient to make up what we lack. The question must be asked, “Since man, through Adam, has thrown the gift of Original Grace back in the face of God, what can man do to deserve another chance to get that grace back?” The answer is, nothing because nothing we can do can ever be enough to deserve such a gift. Now in His mercy, God desires to give us this gift. But God cannot just set aside His justice for it is part of His very nature - along with mercy and love. In fact, theologically speaking, God is the ultimate definition of justice, mercy and love. It would be an offense against justice for God to give man what we do not deserve; especially when it was willfully rejected and especially when we continue to sin. Now, I’m not talking vengence here, it’s about what is just. Man had to make up for the offense man had caused. But due to the alteration of our very nature caused by Adam, no man was capable of doing so. No man’s motives could be pure enough or effective enough to accomplish it even for himself let alone all of humanity. Observance of the Law is a good thing and we Catholics are required to observe our religious laws as well. But mere observance does not deserve heaven. The sacrifices of the Mosaic Law were good and effected a level of purification, but, again, they were never sufficient to warrant Heaven. However, God was capable.

In justice, man needed to make up for the offense but only God was capable of doing so, therefore in His mercy He became man. Could He have chosen to accomplish this by another means. I have no doubt for God is all powerful. But I’ll take a lesson from Job. I was not around when God set the stars, planets, and moons on their course. I cannot, by my word, cause the sun to rise or set. I was not involved in God’s decision of how He would bring about our salvation after Adam’s Fall so I will simply accept that He did it they way He wanted and that His way is best even though I am completely incapable of fully understanding it.

Now, honestly, that is about as far as I can go on this particular topic. I know that there are depths to this concept that go far beyond my capabilities so if anyone cares to jump in or has a good recommendation for materials on the topic, please do!
 
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Jew_Man_73:
This is interesting, Catholicism being the fulfillment of Judaism. I’m going to contact the AHC and see if they can send me any literature. Thanks.
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I wondered how I hadn’t seen this thread before, but I gather it was moved here from another forum. Anyway, welcome and God’s blessings on your search for Him.

I’m fascinated by the notion of Catholicism as the fulfillment of Judaism. The Jews were raised up and consecrated by God for that one moment in history, the coming of the Messiah, and what a Messiah was given to us through the Jews!

Consider that between all other forms of Christianity, as well as Islam, only Catholicism does not base itself on the failure of a previous “attempt” by God. Catholicism does not claim corrupt Scriptures or apostacized believers as its reason for being. Catholicism simply claims itself as the fulfillment of the work of salvation which was begun through the Jews and culminated through the Christ. God’s work of salvation was never broken so that it had to be started again (and, to listen to some sects, again and again and again…)

I haven’t read all 4 pages of this thread. Has anybody yet pointed you to the audio archives of the Journey Home show? I know there are some Jewish converts interviewed there, like Rosalind Moss and her brother, and Bob Fishman. Also Roy Schoeman, author of “Salvation is from the Jews”, and others.

Here’s the link for the archives:
tinyurl.com/89gfw
 
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theMutant:
Ah, this is a difficult concept for most of us. We tend to think of mercy and justice as opposing concepts. However, Catholics believe that in God both act constantly, perfectly, and without conflict. The real problem with merely following the Law is that it isn’t sufficient to make up what we lack. The question must be asked, “Since man, through Adam, has thrown the gift of Original Grace back in the face of God, what can man do to deserve another chance to get that grace back?” The answer is, nothing because nothing we can do can ever be enough to deserve such a gift. Now in His mercy, God desires to give us this gift. But God cannot just set aside His justice for it is part of His very nature - along with mercy and love. In fact, theologically speaking, God is the ultimate definition of justice, mercy and love. It would be an offense against justice for God to give man what we do not deserve; especially when it was willfully rejected and especially when we continue to sin. Now, I’m not talking vengence here, it’s about what is just. Man had to make up for the offense man had caused. But due to the alteration of our very nature caused by Adam, no man was capable of doing so. No man’s motives could be pure enough or effective enough to accomplish it even for himself let alone all of humanity. Observance of the Law is a good thing and we Catholics are required to observe our religious laws as well. But mere observance does not deserve heaven. The sacrifices of the Mosaic Law were good and effected a level of purification, but, again, they were never sufficient to warrant Heaven. However, God was capable.

In justice, man needed to make up for the offense but only God was capable of doing so, therefore in His mercy He became man. Could He have chosen to accomplish this by another means. I have no doubt for God is all powerful. But I’ll take a lesson from Job. I was not around when God set the stars, planets, and moons on their course. I cannot, by my word, cause the sun to rise or set. I was not involved in God’s decision of how He would bring about our salvation after Adam’s Fall so I will simply accept that He did it they way He wanted and that His way is best even though I am completely incapable of fully understanding it.

Now, honestly, that is about as far as I can go on this particular topic. I know that there are depths to this concept that go far beyond my capabilities so if anyone cares to jump in or has a good recommendation for materials on the topic, please do!
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Thank you. That made sense. So since nothing mankind could do could ever make up for the Fall, G-d had to do something for us? Hence Jesus?
 
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VociMike:
I wondered how I hadn’t seen this thread before, but I gather it was moved here from another forum. Anyway, welcome and God’s blessings on your search for Him.

I’m fascinated by the notion of Catholicism as the fulfillment of Judaism. The Jews were raised up and consecrated by God for that one moment in history, the coming of the Messiah, and what a Messiah was given to us through the Jews!

Consider that between all other forms of Christianity, as well as Islam, only Catholicism does not base itself on the failure of a previous “attempt” by God. Catholicism does not claim corrupt Scriptures or apostacized believers as its reason for being. Catholicism simply claims itself as the fulfillment of the work of salvation which was begun through the Jews and culminated through the Christ. God’s work of salvation was never broken so that it had to be started again (and, to listen to some sects, again and again and again…)

I haven’t read all 4 pages of this thread. Has anybody yet pointed you to the audio archives of the Journey Home show? I know there are some Jewish converts interviewed there, like Rosalind Moss and her brother, and Bob Fishman. Also Roy Schoeman, author of “Salvation is from the Jews”, and others.

Here’s the link for the archives:
tinyurl.com/89gfw
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Yes, you are correct. This thread was moved just today. It seems some more people may be discovering it as a result. Thank you for the link, too. I’ll check it out.
 
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Jew_Man_73:
Hi everyone.
Code: 
 Can someone please go to [www.jewsforjudaism.org](http://www.jewsforjudaism.org)?  On the front page is a link called "The Real Messiah?".  Click on it.  This will take you to an online version of a Jewish apologetics book.  You can read the entire thing for free online.  Someone please do this and tell me what you think, what rebuttals you may have.  I found this book to be very convincing, so I'd love some feedback from you guys.  Thanks!
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I admit that I have not yet read it all, but I did find some things quite amusingly typical.

First of all, it speaks of Christians using “our Bible” (that of the Jews) to prove their concept of the Messiah. I think I already addressed that in the fact that the Christian Bible, in fact, comes to us from Judaism. Nearly all of the writings of the New Testament were written by Jews.

Secondly, it speaks of the near ignorance of God, science, and philosophy that was supposedly prevenent during the so-called “Dark Ages.” The term is a useful little hammer based on the near complete ignorance that most people have of the “Dark Ages.” Yes, the Dark Ages when ignorance of science brought us the architectural wonders of romanesque and gothic churches. When ignorance of science combined with ignorance of philosophy as evidenced in the bumbling ravings of St. Thomas Aquinas. As far as ignorance of God goes, well, I guess if we must use their concept of God and the Messiah as a standard, then we are ignorant.

I realize that I’m being a bit sarcastic here. But, as I asked you previously, is there only one possible interpretation of the prophecies? We believe that Jesus did rebuild the Temple - but not an earthly one. We believe that Jesus is the King of the Jews and rules over them and the entire world - but not as an earthly king. We believe that Jesus has circumsized our hearts - and the throngs of Jews who embraced Him as the Messiah willingly gave up sin (although, like anyone, they were not perfect at it).

You see, it is a reaction that can only be supported if Christianity arose from outside of Judaism. If it was an invention of Gentiles who infiltrated Judaism, then their claims would at least have a foundation. But the Christian interpretations of the Messiah arose within Judaism. It was the Jewish disciples of Jesus who taught them to the Gentiles; not the other way around.

In regard to the 1900 years of persecution. It is true that many Christians used religion as a reason to persecute Jews and some still do to this day. Just as it is true that in the early years of the Church Jews led the persecution of Christians. Of course, one does not justify the other.
 
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Jew_Man_73:
Thank you for your help, but I still have a question. I don’t understand how the geneology is done. According to Jewish tradition of the time, The lineage is traced through the father, as can be seen in the book of Matthew. However, Joseph was not Jesus’ biological father. Also, it was prophesied that the Messiah would come from the line of David through Solomon, but Jesus came from the line of David through Nathan, and then through Mary.
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I really know nothing about this subject 🙂 but what the heck!

In Matthew 1 there is given the geneology of Jesus, and it does go through David through Solomon to Joseph.

The claim is that this is invalid because Joseph is not Jesus’ biological father. That might be valid if there were another biological father instead, but that is not the case with Jesus. I cannot believe that the Jewish rules regarding geneology were really designed to take into account the case of a man who had no biological father!

It seems like the objectors here are trying to have it both ways. They are conceding that Jesus had no biological father (thus, that Jesus was conceived of God), in order to argue that He’s not the Messiah. But if they concede that Jesus was conceived of God, how can they reject Him and His teachings?!? As soon as they claim that Joseph was not Jesus’ father, it seems they’ve got far bigger issues to deal with!
 
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Jew_Man_73:
Thank you very much for your response. I’m not trying to insulting (Really I’m not, so please don’t take it that way), but this makes no sense to me. If Joseph’s line was cursed, and Joseph wasn’t even Jesus’ biological father, how could the prophecy have been fulfilled? Please help, I’m confused.
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It could only be fulfilled in one way – God’s way!

Thanks to Zooey for the very interesting explanation. I gather that it would have been (and will still be) impossible for any human to gain the throne of David. Is that right?

BTW, if a man came along today who claimed to be the Messiah, how would his bloodline be verified? Just wondering.
 
Jew_Man_73,

I just found this thread, and wish to welcome you and let you know that you’re in my prayers.

In case no one mentioned it, you can search the Catholic Answers radio archives to find shows with a lot of good content, including Rosalind Moss.
catholic.com/radio/calive.asp

I’m a recent convert to Catholicism. I was raised a Protestant, and when I fell in love with a Jewish girl (who is now my wife) I started to really study the Jewish roots of Christianity. I was blown away, not only by what I learned and how it illuminated what I knew of my faith, but by how much poorer Protestant Christianity had become by forgetting its roots. I’ve always loved Jews and Judaism, but this gave me a much deeper appreciation.

Imagine my surprise and great joy when I discovered that, of all flavors of Christianity, Catholicism is not only the most faithful to the Gospel, but is also the most Jewish!

Again, welcome.
 
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theMutant:
I admit that I have not yet read it all, but I did find some things quite amusingly typical.

First of all, it speaks of Christians using “our Bible” (that of the Jews) to prove their concept of the Messiah. I think I already addressed that in the fact that the Christian Bible, in fact, comes to us from Judaism. Nearly all of the writings of the New Testament were written by Jews.

Secondly, it speaks of the near ignorance of God, science, and philosophy that was supposedly prevenent during the so-called “Dark Ages.” The term is a useful little hammer based on the near complete ignorance that most people have of the “Dark Ages.” Yes, the Dark Ages when ignorance of science brought us the architectural wonders of romanesque and gothic churches. When ignorance of science combined with ignorance of philosophy as evidenced in the bumbling ravings of St. Thomas Aquinas. As far as ignorance of God goes, well, I guess if we must use their concept of God and the Messiah as a standard, then we are ignorant.

I realize that I’m being a bit sarcastic here. But, as I asked you previously, is there only one possible interpretation of the prophecies? We believe that Jesus did rebuild the Temple - but not an earthly one. We believe that Jesus is the King of the Jews and rules over them and the entire world - but not as an earthly king. We believe that Jesus has circumsized our hearts - and the throngs of Jews who embraced Him as the Messiah willingly gave up sin (although, like anyone, they were not perfect at it).

You see, it is a reaction that can only be supported if Christianity arose from outside of Judaism. If it was an invention of Gentiles who infiltrated Judaism, then their claims would at least have a foundation. But the Christian interpretations of the Messiah arose within Judaism. It was the Jewish disciples of Jesus who taught them to the Gentiles; not the other way around.

In regard to the 1900 years of persecution. It is true that many Christians used religion as a reason to persecute Jews and some still do to this day. Just as it is true that in the early years of the Church Jews led the persecution of Christians. Of course, one does not justify the other.
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I do agree with you about the Dark Ages. Even though alot of bad things happened during this time period, alot of good things happened as well. Look at all the works of art that came out of the Dark Ages. (Or Middle Ages, if you prefer.) I’ve always had a fascination with period of history. Thank you for insights about the Jews For Judaism website. I appreciate it. I’ll keep praying.
 
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VociMike:
I really know nothing about this subject 🙂 but what the heck!

In Matthew 1 there is given the geneology of Jesus, and it does go through David through Solomon to Joseph.

The claim is that this is invalid because Joseph is not Jesus’ biological father. That might be valid if there were another biological father instead, but that is not the case with Jesus. I cannot believe that the Jewish rules regarding geneology were really designed to take into account the case of a man who had no biological father!

It seems like the objectors here are trying to have it both ways. They are conceding that Jesus had no biological father (thus, that Jesus was conceived of God), in order to argue that He’s not the Messiah. But if they concede that Jesus was conceived of God, how can they reject Him and His teachings?!? As soon as they claim that Joseph was not Jesus’ father, it seems they’ve got far bigger issues to deal with!
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Thank you, what you said makes does make sense. Honestly, I did find myself wondering the same thing while I was reading the book.
 
BTW,

The question of the geneologies has interested me for a while. The Fourth Century historian Eusebius explains the two geneologies as being the result of the Law of Levirite Marriage, which would result in a man being counted as having two fathers, one biological and one legal.

The two geneologies show that both lines have Joseph tracing his lineage to the House of David.

If you like I can e-mail you a copy of the text (it’s close to 1600 words so I hesitate to paste it here). Or you can probably Google it.

Here’s a taste:
2 "For whereas the names of the generations were reckoned in Israel either according to nature or according to law;-according to nature by the succession of legitimate offspring, and according to law whenever another raised up a child to the name of a brother dying childless; for because a clear hope of resurrection was not yet given they had a representation of the future promise by a kind of mortal resurrection, in order that the name of the one deceased might be perpetuated;

3 whereas then some of those who are inserted in this genealogical table succeeded by natural descent, the son to the father, while others, though born of one father, were ascribed by name to another, mention was made of both of those who were progenitors in fact and of those who were so only in name.

4 Thus neither of the gospels is in error, for one reckons by nature, the other by law. For the line of descent from Solomon and that from Nathan were so involved, the one with the other, by the raising up of children to the childless and by second marriages, that the same persons are justly considered to belong at one time to one, at another time to another; that is, at one time to the reputed fathers, at another to the actual fathers. So that both these accounts are strictly true and come down to Joseph with considerable intricacy indeed, yet quite accurately.
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VociMike:
It could only be fulfilled in one way – God’s way!

Thanks to Zooey for the very interesting explanation. I gather that it would have been (and will still be) impossible for any human to gain the throne of David. Is that right?

BTW, if a man came along today who claimed to be the Messiah, how would his bloodline be verified? Just wondering.
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Actually, there is a group in Israel right now (Sorry, I don’t know their name. I just read an article about them on the Internet last month and didn’t think to save it.) that is seeking to reestablish the line of David on the throne. They’ve been researching genealogical records, and they think they’ve found a man. Of course, convincing the Israeli government to dismantle and regroup is another matter. I also thought that no genealogical records exist anymore, but this website claims the opposite. Apparently, enough records still exist to merit a search. I’ll look around and if I can find this website again, I’ll let you know.
 
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neophyte:
Jew_Man_73,

I just found this thread, and wish to welcome you and let you know that you’re in my prayers.

In case no one mentioned it, you can search the Catholic Answers radio archives to find shows with a lot of good content, including Rosalind Moss.
catholic.com/radio/calive.asp

I’m a recent convert to Catholicism. I was raised a Protestant, and when I fell in love with a Jewish girl (who is now my wife) I started to really study the Jewish roots of Christianity. I was blown away, not only by what I learned and how it illuminated what I knew of my faith, but by how much poorer Protestant Christianity had become by forgetting its roots. I’ve always loved Jews and Judaism, but this gave me a much deeper appreciation.

Imagine my surprise and great joy when I discovered that, of all flavors of Christianity, Catholicism is not only the most faithful to the Gospel, but is also the most Jewish!

Again, welcome.
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Thank you for your welcome and your prayers. I’ve looked around the archives a bit, and I’m still making my way through them. Interesting stuff. And you’re right. I’ve been attending Mass for a while, and I’ve noticed several similarities between the Catholic and Jewish liturgies.
 
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