Question: If Hell is populated with many damned souls, should this be a consideration for bringing children into the world?

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Maximus1 said:
Been posting for hours. The proposition that it is rational to fear bringing a child into a world with a very limited salvation. The rest confined to eternal torment. It got the ball rolling.
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My counter-proposition is that we don’t know any rational person who actually has that combination of fears.

It could be that there aren’t any people who both (a) believe in Hell and (b) do not trust in God enough to be open to having children in the hope that those children will live to enjoy eternal life.

In contrast, there are (for instance) a lot of people who don’t want to bring children into the world because they believe in either the reality of global climate change or the likelihood of humankind making a bigger and bigger mess of the world. That seems to be the kind of fear that leads people to say they have decided not to have children.

If you actually know someone who believes in Hell who says that is why they don’t want to bring children into the world, that is another matter, but I suspect that belief in Hell isn’t very strong among those who don’t trust in God.
 
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You didn’t read my question. The question was,“should it be a consideration?”
 
Maximus1 said:
You didn’t read my question. The question was,“should it be a consideration?”
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Yes, I did read the question. I and several others gave reasons why the answer is “no, it shouldn’t be a consideration.”

Now I’m also pointing out that the sorts of things that actual people do in fact believe also shows that rational people don’t think that it is a consideration. This is not a prevalent fear.

Go figure.
 
Poor Origen, legend has it he castrated himself out of faith and even if that is hype, he made giant contributions, including Ransom Theory, the initial narrative from Genesis till Acts. The teaching for almost 1000 years.
This one he got right.
 
The proposition is not," Don’t believe in hell." Jesus decended into hell. It is in the Nicene Creed.
It is eternal damnation vs eventual reconcilliation.
 
I don’t think anyone (well, maybe the Westboro Baptist people) defends the idea of Hell because they like it or want a single soul to end up there. The consensus of Scripture and Tradition (and, obviously, Magisterial teaching) seems to require that Hell at least be a real possibility, and of course there are those verses (and visions, though those aren’t generally binding) which suggest that damnation is the easier path at least without God’s intervention. As your OP notes, that has often been read to mean that the percentage of people ending up in Hell is greater, perhaps far greater, than that ending up in Heaven. Personally I’m willing to go as far as “We may hope and pray that Hell is empty” — a total win for “our side” — but draw the line before necessary apokatastasis.
 
PetraG said:
My counter-proposition is that we don’t know any rational person who actually has that combination of fears.
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Ok, so I’m not exactly certain if Max is directly referencing DB Hart’s recent work on universal reconciliation, but it’s close enough to Hart’s thought experiment.

Petra, the fact that you and countless others don’t think this way is evidence of the fact (so Hart argues) that people don’t actually believe in the real possibility of an all-good Creator condemning forever their own children. At our core, we know better than to believe in such a monstrous version of divinity.

So you’re right, no one believes this way. We believe our children are treasures. We believe that God is infinitely superior to ourselves in loving immensely. We believe that we are fundamentally good parents when we raise our children. We believe our children are fundamentally good humans deserving of all the love we can give them. And yes, parents who don’t suffer from some profound disorder, love their own children unconditionally—so much so that we would readily die that they might live. And this is us—just regular folks. How much more will the love of God unconditionally extend to all his creations? That is the point.

We say we believe in St Augustine’s god because we think it’s Catholic teaching. We think it’s orthodoxy. We’ve convinced ourselves that it must be true that the omni-benevolent creator of all is capable of handing down an unending sentence of eternal suffering and torment…to our children. And we further embolden the mythology by telling ourselves that our children “chose” such a fate, if they end up in Hell.

But Hart’s point is precisely this—if it’s 50/50 whether our children end up in Heaven or Hell, then it would be irrational to create these children and expose them to this real possibility of eternal damnation. And yet, couples keep having children left and right. Stands to reason then that we don’t actually believe in this real possibility. We tell ourselves that we do only because we are trying to be faithful to what we believe Mother Church teaches on the subject.
 
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CANON V.–If any one saith, that the contrition which is acquired by means of the examination, collection, and detestation of sins,–whereby one thinks over his years in the bitterness of his soul, (b) by pondering on the grievousness, the multitude, the filthiness of his sins, the loss of eternal blessedness, and the eternal damnation which he has incurred, having therewith the purpose of a better life,–is not a true and profitable sorrow, does not prepare for grace, but makes a man a hypocrite and a greater sinner; in fine, that this (contrition) is a forced and not free and voluntary sorrow; let him be anathema.

CANON XV.–If any one saith, that the keys are given to the Church, only to loose, not also to bind; and that, therefore, priests act contrary to the purpose(g) of the keys, and contrary to the institution of Christ, when they impose punishments on those who confess; and that it is a fiction, that, after the eternal punishment, has, by virtue of the keys, been removed, there remains for the most part a temporal punishment to be discharged; let him be anathema.
 
Tobit 8:9 (Knox)
“And now, Lord, thou knowest, that not for fleshly lust do I take my sister* to wife, but only for the love of posterity, in which thy name may be blessed for ever and ever.”
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  • Sister, in ancient Israel, meant a woman from your same tribe of the twelve, not a blood relative.
 
Usagi said:
I don’t think anyone (well, maybe the Westboro Baptist people) defends the idea of Hell because they like it or want a single soul to end up there.
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Fair enough. Although there are undoubtedly some who do actually hope that folks like Hitler are bound for unending suffering. Not most people, mind you, but some. And then there are those who are in what might be called a “group-stage” of consciousness—the tribal stage where one over-identifies with a group and forms an allegiance to it. This group includes some members and excludes others. In this particular case, the group is Catholics. And the Catholics will, in the end, be the eschatological ‘winners.’ They’ll be Team Heaven. Lumen Gentium 16 leaves open the possibility that there may be some other stragglers on the winning Team too. But, it’s the Catholic Church that is the main vehicle for being on the right Team in the eschaton. Again, this is group over identification, and it’s a fairly low level of a consciousness/spirituality that some of us won’t rise above here on Earth. These folks are perfectly ok with the idea that they’re the winners. They may feel sorry for the “others” who are outside of the heavenly country club, but they’re also ok with the fact that there is an exclusive heavenly club and happy as clams that they’re members.
Usagi said:
The consensus of Scripture and Tradition (and, obviously, Magisterial teaching)
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I’ll only grant that in the medieval church in the West was there such a consensus. But considering East vs West? Early vs Medieval vs Modern vs Contemporary? I’m afraid no such consensus exists.

But I like the rest of your points—very Balthasarian of you, and that’s vastly preferable to Augustinian on this issue!!
 
Maximus1 said:
Many Catholics believe Hell has many many damned souls. I don’t share this view, but maybe they are right. Let’s assume they are.
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I am reading ‘The City of God’ by St Augustine and he is of the opinion that most people are going to Hell. This is because most people are faithless and ignore God. And to neglect those who do not seek God is but justice, he says.
 
You are very kind. Hart is much more blunt. Unfortunately for me, Hart’s suspicion confirmed my long-standing one precisely. I decided to keep it in the quiver today.
Balthasar had one of the most unique works touching on this subject. SPJPII and Pope Benedict both cited to it.
His writings about Holy Saturday. It was a busy day. Lol. He believes Christ’s light in hell in his decent remained.
 
Children are always a blessing , besides we need children to sustain our society. It is a risk worth taking, and with the help of God we will all go to Heaven, if we choose to.

Many people risk a lot more to start their business despite the fact that there is greater uncertainty and a very high risk of failure. If we wanted to be 100% safe we would not do anything at all.

Besides with Jesus, everything is possible.
 
Magnanimity said:
Petra, the fact that you and countless others don’t think this way is evidence of the fact (so Hart argues) that people don’t actually believe in the real possibility of an all-good Creator condemning forever their own children. At our core, we know better than to believe in such a monstrous version of divinity.
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As a parent, though, I know you have to let go and allow your children to choose what they decide to choose. You cannot force them to choose what is best for them.
Magnanimity said:
But Hart’s point is precisely this—if it’s 50/50 whether our children end up in Heaven or Hell, then it would be irrational to create these children and expose them to this real possibility of eternal damnation. And yet, couples keep having children left and right. Stands to reason then that we don’t actually believe in this real possibility. We tell ourselves that we do only because we are trying to be faithful to what we believe Mother Church teaches on the subject.
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I think it is axiomatic that human beings are really bad at risk assessment, though.
 
You are coming at the hypo a bit differently. Catholics traditional families have lots of kids due to faith issues. It is hard to extrapolate and tease out this one issue. This is why I posed the question as " should people" rather than do people. It is a question of reason, not practice. A young healthy couple with no birth control, which describes a typical traditional couple, is going to have babies and there is minimal reason beforehand.( Immediately beforehand) It is farcical to think that kids in their 20s are contemplating much, and we are designed not to think much after a certain point. ( It’s my spouse, Church gives the green light, no birth control, young and attracted…thats about it)
Honestly, God did say be fruitful and multiply, but I never heard of foreplay with ones wife reading that passage before lovemaking either. It seems obvious to me that God took care of that snippet of his will with hormones and some preliminaries and some " method" that does not actually work which we learn afterwards. Did all the thinking for us creating our nature. Lol.
The “should we” question is very different as it is a classroom question not a bedroom question.
I rather focus on responses like we see in this OP. You see discomfort. People tended to explain how " the ideal CCC Catholic thinker" would engage in ethics and exemplary catechism analysis to be fruitful Accord to God’s will. It really does not happen like that either with a young couple in love after a certain point. Your no contraception decisions and such happen well before the lovemaking in real life with married people. Nobody actually wants to raise the issue of the Holy Spirit in the room and anybody who tells me they do, every time, I have to roll my eyes.
It is a thought experiment!
Does eternal damnation of my beloved child as a hypo cause more trepidation , the more limited the salvation. And vice versa. In a reasoned response.
It should. Eternal damnation, Dante Inferno images, are more unthinkable the more you think about them. At some point reason requires consideration.
Unless you really do not contemplate that result. It won’t happen to my child, who isn’t even born yet, is irrational in a very limited salvation. And if you say it doesn’t matter, that is irrational. St. Augustine described it intentionally so that it has to matter.
 
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PetraG said:
As a parent, though, I know you have to let go and allow your children to choose what they decide to choose. You cannot force them to choose what is best for them.
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Very true. My children range from ages 19 down to 10. And yes, this “letting go” process extends to every area of life. It happens naturally to us as we age, I think. It’s sort of a process of “disidentification,” as it were. But I can only truly do this toward the most precious creatures (to me) in the whole world—my children—because of my utter confidence in a God who wills and works for the good of all his creatures. If I did not believe in such a God, I can imagine suffering from an acute anxiety, paranoia and a desire to be very controlling over my children—for the purpose of increasing their ‘chances’ of getting into Heaven. I can only let it all go because God is infinitely good and will ever will and work for the good end of all his creations.
 
Justice? I have to be honest, for 40 years since Catholic School and a Catholic life, " Justice" as a thought process we atribute to God, has been " the most challenging" to accept.
There are so many reasons why it has bothered me since childhood.
You begin with God loves us in his perfect way. Retributive justice is far from perfect. Justice will always represent a limitation and God has none. We can be cruel to our children, but killing and eating your kids is not as punitive as eternal damnation.
Jesus was our opportunity to experience the ineffable God. Nothing Jesus ever did makes me believe God would allow that level of retribution for sin. We are so imperfect and God knows it. Sinning is irrational, and is always done with diminished reason as far as I can tell.
The Adulteress was caught red handed breaking a Commandment. NOR SHALL I, GO AND SIN NO MORE evidences that the sin was not everything. And Jesus was consistent with sinners that exhibited humility.
Confession erases ETERNAL PUNISHMENT pretty painlessly. 1 hour portal to portal vs fires and suffering for eternity? There is a disconnect.
But what really causes question is God, and Jesus who we met I the flesh. The Sermon was an event of radical love beyond human love. Jesus sacrifice was so great, it can’t have been for a tiny handful. The rest lost. What about God’s will in Ephesians 1:3-4? The idea God doesn’t fail God Wins? Again, GOD IS PERFECT! I think it insulting since childhood to saddle God with our imperfect thoughts as finite contingent beings.
Then there is the Church mission. And my own desire to love God. Divine Union. The intimacy shared by mystics like John of the Cross, Song of Songs, and many others. A pretty consistent body of intimate experience reported. Being made fearful of an all powerful being who hated us , but then could love us once Divine Justice was satiated killing his beloved, is scary. And it didn’t sit right and still doesnt. The consistent picture from our Saints and mystics is a consistent and intimate love.
I learned that it didn’t sit right for Millennia for many including Saints and prominent Catholics either. I learned it wasn’t even the atonement theory of the Church for the first 1000 years.
And so much more " difficulty" accepting.
Justice vs DIVINE love and superabundant grace. It is precisely because it matters deeply to me,that it torments me since grade school. Since, I have 30+ years of legal experience with a lot of reading on matters of faith and law, and I learned a little bit about discerning. My image of God has become what it is. I chose love, not psychosis.
 
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