Question on Islam -- round 4

[sedonaman]

…
They chose to follow this Noble Prophet … after they witnessed the signs of his truthfulness and the evidences of his miracles. …

What miracles? Mohammed performed no miracles. In fact he admitted he performed none.

Mohammed admittedly performed no miracles (at least apart from the Koran itself, which is considered as miraculous.)
“Islam – He had no miracles except the Qur’an, the like of which no human can produce.” – Britannica.com
The Koran itself affirms this quote from Britanica.com that the only miraculous sign given to Mohammed was said to be the Koran itself.

When you have no verse to recite to them, they say: ‘Have you not yet invented one?’ Say: ‘I follow only what is revealed to me by my Lord. This Book is a veritable proof from your Lord, a guide and a blessing to true believers.’ When the Koran is recited, listen to it in silence so that you may be shown mercy. (Koran, p. 126, 7:199, 3rd Para. – 4th Para.)
The fact that Mohammed himself performed no miracles to attest to his message is made even more ironic by the fact that according to the Koran some of the previous [mere] apostles, which the Koran appeals to for validation, did perform miracles.
Islam – Prophethood is indivisible, and the Qur’an requires recognition of all prophets as such without discrimination. Yet they are not all equal, some of them being particularly outstanding in qualities of steadfastness and patience under trial. Abraham , Noah , Moses , and Jesus were such great prophets. As vindication of the truth of their mission, God often vests them with miracles: Abraham was saved from fire, Noah from the deluge, and Moses from the Pharaoh. Not only was Jesus born from the Virgin Mary, but God also saved him from crucifixion at the hands of the Jews." – Britannica.com
And the Koran itself often addresses this question of why Mohammed doesn’t do miracles as other prophets and apostles have done before him. The fact that the Koran addresses this question demonstrates that it was an issue during Mohammed’s own lifetime and one, which Mohammed was himself well aware of.
​

They ask: ‘Why was no sign sent down to him from his Lord?’ Say: ‘God is well able to send down a sign.’ But most of them are ignorant men. (Koran, p. 96, 6:36, 2nd Para. – 3rd Para.)

The unbelievers ask: ‘Why has no sign been sent down to him by his Lord?’ Say: 'God leaves in error whom He will, and guides to Himself those who repent and have faith; whose hearts find comfort in the remembrance of God. Surely in the remembrance of God all hearts are comforted. Blessed are those who have faith and do good works; blissful is their end. (Koran, p. 177, 13:25, 4th Para.)

If they say: ‘He has invented it (1) himself,’ say to them: ‘Produce ten invented chapters like it. Call on whom you will among your idols, if what you say be true. But if they fail you, know that it is revealed with God’s knowledge, and that there is no god but Him. Will you then accept Islam?’ (Koran, p. 157, 11:9, 4th Para.)
Source: “Evidentiary Religions – Islam Introduction” biblestudying.net/islam1.html

As a sidebar, notice the logical fallacies employed by Mohammed, debate tactics that Muslims use down to this very day. [This is to be expected since they are following the Koran’s dictates.] The first paragraph contains a non-sequitur – those who don’t accept Mohammed without a heavenly sign are “ignorant men”. In the second response, he says those who accept him are “blessed” because they have faith and do good works.

In the third paragraph, in response to the statement, “'He has invented it himself,” he doesn’t explain why the Koran should be accepted as having a divine origin; rather, he demands his doubters to, “Produce ten invented chapters like it.” In other words, he throws the challenge back to his challengers. The fact that no one in present company cannot produce similar literature is no proof of divine origin. The Iliad is literature of which few could duplicate even a single chapter. Does that mean it has a divine origin?

Since the only “miracle” attributed to Mohammed is alleged to be the Koran, we can conclude that Mohammed produced no miracles … other than his skillful use of flimflam.

 

[Jay53]

1. It is impossible that any person conceive wisdom, morals, good manners, and nobleness of characters as what this honorable Prophet (P.B.U.H) brought. In a full and complete manner, Muhammad (P.B.U.H) spread a teaching regarding character and manners toward one’s parents, relatives, fiends, family, humanity, animals, plants and inanimate objects. It is impossible for the human mind alone to grasp all of that teaching or come with a similar teaching. All of that unequivocally indicates that this Messenger (P.B.U.H) did not bring any of this religion from his own accord, but that it was rather a teaching and inspiration that he (P.B.U.H) received from The One Who created the earth and the high heavens above and created this universe in its miraculous architecture and perfection.
2. The legal and creedal make-up of the religion that the Messenger Muhammad (P.B.U.H) brought resembles the engineering of the heavens and the earth. All of that indicates that He Who created the heavens and the earth is The One Who sent down this great law and upright religion. The degree of inimitability of the Divine law that was sent down upon Muhammad (P.B.U.H) is to the same degree of inimitability of the Divine creation of the heavens and the earth. For just as humanity cannot create this universe, in the same manner humanity cannot bring forth a law like Allaah’s law that He sent down upon His servant and messenger Muhammad (P.B.U.H).

you tell me jay
why any muslim will leave his relegion and worship someone (jesus) never asked his followers to worship him?
Because Jesus told us He is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him. Jesus revealed Himself as God and told us to worship God.

why any muslim will leave the unique God they worship to believe in unlogic trinity God ?

The trinity is NOT unlogical. In my own mind it makes perfect sense. I don’t know that I can explain it to someone unwilling to learn (that’s why my occupation is NOT teacher ), but it DOES make sense to me (and the millions of Christians worldwide. You just need to ask God to help you understand.

and why in the first place they will believe in trinity while jesus never describe or mentioned it ?

Again, Jesus DID!!! Matthew 28:16-20 (These verses also confirm that Jesus was God and wanted to be worshipped!!!)

But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had directed them to go. and when they saw him they worshipped him; but some doubted. And Jesus drew near and spoke to them saying, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and behold, I am with you all days, even unto the consummation of the world.”

why any muslims will trust records written by normal human and then doubt in the words of mohammed (pbuh)

Muhammad is not a normal human? Again, what proof is there that is revelations are from God - especially since they contradict previous scriptures. What makes you know that his revelations, as opposed to Joseph Smith’s, are from God?

why any muslim should to worship jesus where we have one and only one from his discples said to him o’ my lord my God , yet he said these words after curcifixion of jesus as if it wasn’t somthing worth to mention by jesus about himself before his curcifixion
how i base my belief in one statement said by just one who is known by doubting thomas ?

The proof Jesus gave to Thomas is but one proof of Jesus’ Divinity. I wouldn’t expect you to base your faith on this one example. (And BTW, he is known as “doubting Thomas” because he would not believe without seeing Jesus and his wounds firsthand. Jesus told him, “Blessed are they who have not seen and yet believe.”

This also contradicts Muhammad’s verses that say that Jesus was not put on the cross. This is one example of why I would like to know why Muslims believe that Muhammad is correct - he contradicts previous scriptures.

 

[sedonaman]

…
2. Muhammad … also foretold of everything that would occur to him and his community after him, …

Then why did he eat poisoned meat the did him in? He should have known it was coming. Plus, if he was a true prophet, Allah would have saved him just like he saved Jesus. [And don’t use that worn out “Allah-does-what-he-wills” excuse.]

 

[planten]

**
I admire Elwill for the great posts about the Last Prophet from Allah, that is the greatest Prophet (Khaatam an Nabiyyeen), the Seal (Super Seal) of the prophets through whom the prophethood of all prophets is proved.

If there was no Muhammad, then the prophethood of Zakariyya and John the Baptist and Jesus could not be proved. Quran is the Last Testament (LT). All the good things of the OT and NT are included in the LT. I challenge the christians to show anything good from their NT. I will show them same or better from LT (The Quran).

Quran is the greatest Miracle of the prophet Muhammad. It is a pity that the Catholics have come down to their lowest level by denying that Jesus had anything. They say Jesus did not give anything and he did not have anything. The Catholics deny that Jesus gave the bibleNT. What a bad show.

Previosly, the Catholics agreed that Jesus was cursed. How bad calling a man of God as a cursed person. Very bad. Then in their man made book (bibleNT) they are not having a good story about the disciples of Jesus who ran away in the time of difficulty. Quran says that they remained steadfast.

First Calling Jesus a cursed person, then calling the whole humanity as sinful and born sinners, even newborn babies being sinners. How can the church explain all these things?. They invented the original sin theory so that they could use Jesus as a scapegoat, to redeem the sins of sinners. There was no need of anything like that. Our prophet never taught such things. Jesus also never said that all mankind is sinner. Jesus never talked about teh inherited sin.

All these problems need an explanation. The Trinity too, Three gods in One and One in three. Also How was Jesus getting messages from the Father God? Nobody is telling.

Calling Jesus a cursed person and then saying that he did not give any Bible. How could the christians come near the man of God, Muhammad. Jesus has been given many roles. He is a man and a son of man and a prophet of God and a god and a son of God, all at the same time. How come !!.

Quran is the miracle and God miracolously saved Jesus from the attack of his enemies. So according to Muslism, he was not cursed. He was a prophet, i.e. messenger. he said so himself that he was sent. Every messenger has the message.Jesus also had the message. But the Catholics deny that Jesus had anything. But Quran states that Allah taught Jesus the Torah and gave him the Injeel (i.e. the bible).

Quran is the last message for all mankind till the day of judgement. Now, no new message will come from Allah to add or subtract any word of the Quran. No word of the Quran will be deleted too.

Elwill has boldly informed all christians about the truth of the prophet Muhammad. It is upto the Catholics to believe it or not. No harm will come to them from the Muslims for not believing in Muhammad. But they will suffer in the end when they will face God. They will suffer in this world and the next world by natural calamities.

I fully support Elwill in the above posts of Elwill about prophet Muhammad. Thanks to Elwill for taking up the case of the prophet Muhammad. Elwill has done his duty and will be rewarded by Allah, Insha Allah.
**

 

[sedonaman]

Correction:

“The fact that no one in present company cannot produce similar literature is no proof of divine origin”

should read, "“The fact that no one in present company can produce similar literature is no proof of divine origin”

 

[sedonaman]

**
I admire Elwill for the great posts about the Last Prophet from Allah, that is the greatest Prophet (Khaatam an Nabiyyeen), the Seal (Super Seal) of the prophets through whom the prophethood of all prophtes is proved.
…
**

You admire elwill because you agree with him. What kind of justification for admiration is that? Suppose he is wrong.

 

[jakasaki]

Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death.

The first ridiculous thing here is all of the pbuh’s. It sounds like a broken LP…

Second, this thing about “illiterate” is nonsence. He was able to read and write - he is called the “An-Nabi Ul-Ummi” and that does NOT mean illiterate. We’ve been through this before on here.

There are many indications in the hadiths which state mohamad was able to read & write. All one has to do is read them with an open mind and with NOT what they’ve been told about him being illiterate.

Among all his people, he (P.B.U.H) was known as being truthful and trustworthy.

Breaking treaties is truthful and trustworthy??

Killing people who mocked him through poetry and to his face is beign truthful & trustworthy??

Messing around with all of the wives and fooling them with Maria the Copt was truthful & trustworthy??? - Even the wives banned mohamad from visiting them for 30 days. Would a bunch of wives do that to a “truthful and trustworthy” husband???

Before receiving revelation, he (P.B.U.H) had no prior knowledge of religion or any previously sent Message.

More balony - there were Christians and Jews living with him - he met many people during his caravan trading days and hust hanging around these people.

He (P.B.U.H) remained like that for his first forty years. Revelation then came to Muhammad (P.B.U.H) with the Quran that we now have between our hands.

Any book that goes agaisnt the Old and Testament if no revelation. While in the cave, mohamad was deceived by some spirit or something else. It was not God and it was not Gabriel.

This Quran mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he (P.B.U.H) witnessed them.

This is laughable

These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses (P.B.U.H) and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus (P.B.U.H).

More laughable statements - there is nothing “precisely” about the accounts from the Torah and the Gospel.

Never the less, neither the Jews nor the Christians believed anything that he (P.B.U.H) said.

This is true - that is because the Jews were always testing mohamads claim to prophethood. It’s in the Torah to test these “so called prophets” to see if they are trully sent from God. He failed all of the “prophetic” tests, therefore the Jews & Christians laughed at him and did not believe him. He was NOT a prophet of God.

 

[jakasaki]

1. **Muhammad (P.B.U.H) also foretold of everything that would occur to him **and his community after him, pertaining to victory, the removal of the tyrannical kingdoms of Chosroes [the royal title for the Zoroastrian kings of Persia] and Caesar, and the establishment of the religion of Islam throughout the earth. These events occurred exactly as Muhammad (P.B.U.H) foretold, as if he (P.B.U.H) was reading the future from an open book.

Interesting paragraph - it contradicts the statement in the koran #188

Koran chapter 7:

187 They ask thee about the (final) Hour - when will be its appointed time? Say: “The knowledge thereof is with my Lord (alone): None but He can reveal as to when it will occur. Heavy were its burden through the heavens and the earth. Only, all of a sudden will it come to you.” They ask thee as if thou Wert eager in search thereof: Say: “The knowledge thereof is with Allah (alone), but most men know not.”

188 Say: "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me: I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith."

 

[sedonaman]

Interesting paragraph - it contradicts the statement in the koran #188 …

“For every verse in the Koran, there is an equal but opposite verse.” – Mohammad’s Third Law

 

[jakasaki]

“For every verse in the Koran, there is an equal but opposite verse.” – Mohammad’s Third Law

Indeed - allah changes his mind quite often. But since I don’t believe this koran book is from God, I would say mohamad changes his mind quite often.

 

[elwill]

Muhammad (P.B.U.H) the son of `Abdullaah, is Allaah’s Prophet and the Final Messenger sent by Allaah to the inhabitants of the earth. You should know that he (P.B.U.H) is Allaah’s Messenger in reality and truth. The evidences that show his veracity are abundant. None but an infidel, who out of arrogance alone, could deny these signs.
Among these proofs:
Then, apparently I am an arrogant infidel!

i’m sorry if you felt any offenses , i really didn’t mean that
the arrogant is the one who knew the signs and denyed it , may be you denied it out of misinforming or misunderstnding , or may be it’s out of arrognt , who knows but God !!!
but be sure that i didn’t mean you or any one personally , i don’t know the intension of every one of you
so please , accept my apology

. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death. Among all his people, he (P.B.U.H) was known as being truthful and trustworthy. Before receiving revelation, he (P.B.U.H) had no prior knowledge of religion or any previously sent Message. He (P.B.U.H) remained like that for his first forty years. Revelation then came to Muhammad (P.B.U.H) with the Quran that we now have between our hands. This Quran mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he (P.B.U.H) witnessed them. These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses (P.B.U.H) and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus (P.B.U.H). Never the less, neither the Jews nor the Christians believed anything that he (P.B.U.H) said.

What Gospel “sent down” to Jesus? I have yet to see any evidence of this - simply Muhammad’s word that the Christian’s corrupted it. And I thought that there were discrepancies between accounts from the Old Testament and New Testament vs. the Quran. (i.e. Jesus speaking from the cradle, Mary giving birth under a palm tree etc.)

jay , you simply asked about our reasons to believe mohammed (pbuh) , i just give you some reasons , i’m not in the position of debate here
anyway , what is wrong with quran to mention some events which not mentioned in your bible , where is the discrepancies in that ? lacking of some details in your bible dosn’t mean that quran fabricated it either

1. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) also foretold of everything that would occur to him and his community after him, pertaining to victory, the removal of the tyrannical kingdoms of Chosroes [the royal title for the Zoroastrian kings of Persia] and Caesar, and the establishment of the religion of Islam throughout the earth. These events occurred exactly as Muhammad (P.B.U.H) foretold, as if he (P.B.U.H) was reading the future from an open book.

This might be a plausible reason. Is foretelling the future a sign of a prophet from God? Does anyone know?

so you don’t consider prophecies to be proof for prophets ? will i have to admit that i differ with you in that
but to be clear with you , i believe that 100% of his prophecies came true exactly as he described it , i can consider that just one reason from many to believe him

1. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) also conveyed an Arabic Quran that is the peak of eloquence and clarity. The Quran challenged those eloquent and fluent Arabs of his time, who initially belied him, to bring forth a single chapter like the Quran. The eloquent Arabs of his day were unable to contest this Quran. Indeed, till our day, none has ever dared to claim that he has been able to compose words that equal-or even approach-the order, grace, beauty and splendor of this Glorious Quran.

This is strictly opinion and does not prove it is from God.

again , it dosn’t matter with me if you believe or not that it’s from God , i just give you one of many reasons

1. The life history of this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H) was a perfect example of being upright, merciful, compassionate, truthful, brave, generous, distant from all evil character, and ascetic in all worldly matters, while striving solely for the reward of the Hereafter. Moreover, in all his actions and dealings, he (P.B.U.H) was ever mindful and fearful of Allaah.

No offense, but this is a load of baloney!!! He is NOT a perfect example - he killed people, he ordered people killed. He did not remain faithful to one wife after Khadijah died. This is strictly an opinion and not proof that his revelations were from God.

killing someone for defense oneself or one’s family or one’s society isn’t disrespectfull in islam , i think that jesus have no problems with death punishment for crimers , or should we leave all the crimers free because God is love and don’t wnat to hurt anybody !!!

and you can’t complain for his first wife , as for we know allready how much she loved the prophet and how much he was faithfull to her

1. Allaah instilled great love for Muhammad (P.B.U.H) in the hearts of all who believed in and met him (P.B.U.H). This love reached such a degree that any of his companions would willingly sacrifice his (or her) self, mother or father for him (P.B.U.H). Till today, those who believe in Muhammad (P.B.U.H) honor and love him. Anyone of those who believe in him would ransom his own family and wealth to see him (P.B.U.H) even if but once.

Again, this is pure conjecture and proves nothing about his revelations being from God. This also says that people would sacrifice themselves and their families for Muhammad, but would he do the same for them? Jesus did!!!

did you forgot your question ? your first question was about mohammed (pbuh)
it was why muslims believe in mohammed (pbuh) , that’s why i’m talking about him (pbuh)

 

[Booklover]

what a great question . jay

Muhammad (P.B.U.H) the son of `Abdullaah, is Allaah’s Prophet and the Final Messenger sent by Allaah to the inhabitants of the earth. You should know that he (P.B.U.H) is Allaah’s Messenger in reality and truth. The evidences that show his veracity are abundant. None but an infidel, who out of arrogance alone, could deny these signs.
Among these proofs:

1. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death. Among all his people, he (P.B.U.H) was known as being truthful and trustworthy. Before receiving revelation, he (P.B.U.H) had no prior knowledge of religion or any previously sent Message. He (P.B.U.H) remained like that for his first forty years. Revelation then came to Muhammad (P.B.U.H) with the Quran that we now have between our hands. This Quran mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he (P.B.U.H) witnessed them. These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses (P.B.U.H) and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus (P.B.U.H). Never the less, neither the Jews nor the Christians believed anything that he (P.B.U.H) said.
2. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) also foretold of everything that would occur to him and his community after him, pertaining to victory, the removal of the tyrannical kingdoms of Chosroes [the royal title for the Zoroastrian kings of Persia] and Caesar, and the establishment of the religion of Islam throughout the earth. These events occurred exactly as Muhammad (P.B.U.H) foretold, as if he (P.B.U.H) was reading the future from an open book.
3. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) also conveyed an Arabic Quran that is the peak of eloquence and clarity. The Quran challenged those eloquent and fluent Arabs of his time, who initially belied him, to bring forth a single chapter like the Quran. The eloquent Arabs of his day were unable to contest this Quran. Indeed, till our day, none has ever dared to claim that he has been able to compose words that equal-or even approach-the order, grace, beauty and splendor of this Glorious Quran.
4. The life history of this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H) was a perfect example of being upright, merciful, compassionate, truthful, brave, generous, distant from all evil character, and ascetic in all worldly matters, while striving solely for the reward of the Hereafter. Moreover, in all his actions and dealings, he (P.B.U.H) was ever mindful and fearful of Allaah.
5. Allaah instilled great love for Muhammad (P.B.U.H) in the hearts of all who believed in and met him (P.B.U.H). This love reached such a degree that any of his companions would willingly sacrifice his (or her) self, mother or father for him (P.B.U.H). Till today, those who believe in Muhammad (P.B.U.H) honor and love him. Anyone of those who believe in him would ransom his own family and wealth to see him (P.B.U.H) even if but once.
6. All of history has not preserved the biography of any person in the manner it has preserved the life of Muhammad (P.B.U.H) who is the most influential human in history. Nor has the entire earth known of anyone whom every morning and evening, and many times thereafter throughout the day, is thought of by those who believe in him. Upon remembering Muhammad (P.B.U.H) the believers in him will greet him and ask Allaah to bless him (P.B.U.H) and exalt his status. They do such with full hearts and true love for him (P.B.U.H).
7. Nor has there every been a man on earth whom is still followed in all his doings by those who believe in him (P.B.U.H). Those who believe in Muhammad (P.B.U.H)sleep in the manner he (P.B.U.H) slept; purify themselves (through ablution and ritual washing) in the manner he (P.B.U.H) purified himself; and adhere to his practice in the way they eat, drink, and clothe themselves.
8. There has never been, nor will there ever be, a man anywhere upon this earth who has received such love, respect, honor, and obedience in all matters, small and large alike, as has this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H).
9. Since his days, in every region of the earth and during every period, this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H) has been followed by individuals from all nations, colors and peoples. Many of those who followed him were previously Christians, Jews, pagans, idolaters, or without any religion. Among those who chose to follow him, were those who were known for their sound judgment, wisdom, reflection, and foresight. They chose to follow this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H)after they witnessed the signs of his truthfulness and the evidences of his miracles. They did not choose to follow Muhammad (P.B.U.H) out of compulsion or coercion or because they had adopted the ways of their fathers and mothers.

Indeed many of the followers of this Prophet (P.B.U.H) chose to follow him during the time when Islam was weak, when there were few Muslims, and when there was severe persecution of his followers on earth. People who have followed this Prophet (P.B.U.H) have not done so to acquire some material benefits. Indeed many of his followers have suffered the greatest forms of harm and persecution as a result of following him. Despite all this harm and persecution, this did not turn them back from his religion. All of this clearly indicates, to anyone possessing any sense, that this Prophet (P.B.U.H) was truly and really Allaah’s messenger and that he (P.B.U.H) was not just a man who claimed prophethood or spoke about Allaah without knowledge.

This post is just another reminder of why I hardly ever post anything here anymore. It seems such a waste of time trying to debate with people who prefer to believe in fairytales and who refuse to deal with reality. These are fairytales, pure and simple! You Muslims need to grow up!

Vickie

 

[elwill]

1. All of history has not preserved the biography of any person in the manner it has preserved the life of Muhammad (P.B.U.H) who is the most influential human in history. Nor has the entire earth known of anyone whom every morning and evening, and many times thereafter throughout the day, is thought of by those who believe in him. Upon remembering Muhammad (P.B.U.H) the believers in him will greet him and ask Allaah to bless him (P.B.U.H) and exalt his status. They do such with full hearts and true love for him (P.B.U.H).

Again this is not true. There is controversy/speculation as to whether he was actually illiterate or not, the age of Aisha, etc.
It is, again, pure opinion that he is the most influential human in history. This does not prove that his revelations are from God.

oh , you bring for me some controversy issues , so do you know any human being in the world where his biography in the manner and every aspect of his life were preserved as with mohammed (pbuh)
give me names if you suggest that i’m wrong , because i’m think that i’m right in my openion regardless of the age of his wife which you brought up

 

[elwill]

This post is just another reminder of why I hardly ever post anything here anymore. It seems such a waste of time trying to debate with people who prefer to believe in fairytales and who refuse to deal with reality. These are fairytales, pure and simple! You Muslims need to grow up!

Vickie

we will do our best , booklover
your post was very enlightment

 

[sedonaman]

Mega

 

[Jay53]

i’m sorry if you felt any offenses , i really didn’t mean that
the arrogant is the one who knew the signs and denyed it , may be you denied it out of misinforming or misunderstnding , or may be it’s out of arrognt , who knows but God !!!
but be sure that i didn’t mean you or any one personally , i don’t know the intension of every one of you
so please , accept my apology

Don’t worry - I’m not really offended. I am completely secure in my faith that I honestly don’t worry about what anyone else thinks. I have absolutely no doubt that Muhammad is NOT a prophet from God.

jay , you simply asked about our reasons to believe mohammed (pbuh) , i just give you some reasons , i’m not in the position of debate here
anyway , what is wrong with quran to mention some events which not mentioned in your bible , where is the discrepancies in that ? lacking of some details in your bible dosn’t mean that quran fabricated it either

I was actually looking for YOUR (and other Muslim posters here) reasons - not a cut and paste job about how wonderful Muhammad is. The list you posted isn’t even valid reasons WHY you believe Muhammad - unless “feel good” opinions about how wonderful a person is determine prophethood. I’m looking for concrete evidence as to why Muslims believe his revelations are from God. If Joseph Smith had lived at the same time and gave everyone his “revelations” would you believe him instead?

Jesus came and founded the Catholic Church which existed for at least 600 years before Muhammad came along. Then Muhammad comes and says he has received new revelations that Christians have corrupted Jesus’ message - divorce is actually OK, polygamy is actually OK, you’re supposed to be praying in a certain way and if anyone walks in front of you while your praying God doesn’t acknowledge those prayers, love your neighbor as yourself is not valid, etc. I want to know why you believe him - what proof did he give that his contradictions were from God and that he was not just some “crackpot” with new ideas.

so you don’t consider prophecies to be proof for prophets ? will i have to admit that i differ with you in that
but to be clear with you , i believe that 100% of his prophecies came true exactly as he described it , i can consider that just one reason from many to believe him

I don’t know if they are or not - that’s why I asked. I don’t think that is a singular criteria because there are numerous fortune tellers etc around who can accurately predict some future events - are they all prophets from God? Is Nostradamus considered a prophet from God? There has to be more to it than that, but if that is one of your criteria, then fine, start the list with that one.

again , it dosn’t matter with me if you believe or not that it’s from God , i just give you one of many reasons

So you are saying that Muslims believe that simply the eloquence of the Quran is the reason Muhammad’s revelations are from God? So if someone else writes something eloquent, you will consider it to be from God? Was that how Moses was determined to be a prophet - the eloquence of the Ten Commandments?

killing someone for defense oneself or one’s family or one’s society isn’t disrespectfull in islam , i think that jesus have no problems with death punishment for crimers , or should we leave all the crimers free because God is love and don’t wnat to hurt anybody !!!

This has nothing to do with this topic.

and you can’t complain for his first wife , as for we know allready how much she loved the prophet and how much he was faithfull to her

I completely acknowledge that he was faithful to Khadijah - it was after her that he couldn’t be faithful! And I only mention this because your list said that Muhammad was a “perfect example” for everyone. Just being “good” doesn’t signify prophethood does it? I don’t think it does, but even if it did Muhammad wouldn’t qualify.

did you forgot your question ? your first question was about mohammed (pbuh)
it was why muslims believe in mohammed (pbuh) , that’s why i’m talking about him (pbuh)

Your list said that people were willing to sacrifice themselves and their wealth etc for Muhammad as if that signifies prophethood. I was simply pointing out that other people willing to sacrifice themselves for Muhammad does not prove his prophethood. I would willingly sacrifice my life for my husband or my children - does that mean they are prophets?

Perhaps I have not made my question clear, but I don’t know how else to ask it. I just want to know why Muslims believe Muhammad. They don’t believe Joseph Smith who claims to have received revelations from an angel and claims to be a prophet from God so there must be something specific about Muhammad that he somehow proved that his messages were from God.

(Just for example, we know Jesus is God/from God because he fulfilled numerous Old Testament prophecies, He was acknowledged directly by God at His baptism and His transfiguration, He performed numerous miracles, He forgave sins, He died and rose on the third day which He also foretold, He acknowledged the Old Testament covenant and gave us a new covenant. This is just a small list of all the reasons we know that He is from God - whether you acknowledge that He is God or not.)

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Please show me theological contradictions between the Torah and the Quran

We’ve gone over this before, and found two problems:

1. 
   *]This is a non-sequitor, especially now. I mentioned that the revelation and use of previous scripture between the Koran and previous books is inconsistent with how the NT treated the OT: the NT confirmed the validity of the OT; the Koran denounces the OT and NT, considers them tarnished, but assures us to just believe Islam. This has nothing to do with theological contradictions between the “Torah” (the first five books of the OT) and Koran. To make this demand is to avoid the point entirely.
   *]Last time this was discussed, intellectual dishonesty regarding the definition of theology was employed, namely that a strict, narrow version of the definition was demanded, even when the true definition was supplied from outside sources.
   
   However, if you want at least one or two theological contradictions, I can easily supply them.
   
   First is the matter of Ishmael. The Koran, and Islam in general, glorifies Ishmael to the point that they associate him with the other descendants of Abraham.
   
   Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: “What will ye worship after me?” They said: “We shall worship Thy god and the god of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma’il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah: To Him we bow (in Islam).” [S. 2:133]
   
   Say: “We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).” [S. 3:84]
   
   Also mention in the Book (the story of) Isma’il: He was (strictly) true to what he promised, and he was a messenger (and) a prophet. [S. 19:54]
   
   This is completely inaccurate - Ishmael was never part of God’s covenant with Abraham. How do we know this? Because God said it Himself.
   
   But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.” [Genesis 17:19-21; emphasis mine]
   
   The very inclusion of Ishmael with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Mohammedan addition. The Old Testament, let alone the Torah, never included Ishmael in the list of prophets.
   
   And Joseph said to his brethren, “I am dying; but God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land to the land of which He swore to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.” [Genesis 50:24]
   
   “…that they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.” [Exodus 4:5]
   
   Remember Your servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; do not look on the stubbornness of this people, or on their wickedness or their sin… [Deuteronomy 9:27]
   
   But the LORD was gracious to them, had compassion on them, and regarded them, because of His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not yet destroy them or cast them from His presence. [2 Kings 13:23]
   
   Furthermore, it gets the priorities wrong - it says Allah granted Abraham Ishmael.
   
   “Praise be to Allah, Who hath granted unto me in old age Isma’il and Isaac: for truly my Lord is He, the Hearer of Prayer!” [S. 14:39]
   
   This is incorrect. God did not grant Ishmael to Abraham - that was a human scheme planned by Sarah, who realized due to her barren nature she could not give Abraham a son (see Genesis 16). It was when Sarah was granted by God the ability to give birth even in her old age that Abraham received a son by miracle - this was planned by God (see Genesis 18, as well as the end of Genesis 17).
   
   Even more humorously, Islam erroneously believes Ishmael was the one almost sacrificed by Abraham (the Muslim holiday Eid al-Adha celebrates this fact).
   
   Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” [Genesis 22:1-2; emphasis mine]
   
   One major contradiction I would argue is that the idea of covenants is completely different. Covenant-making involves a covenant-making event - no such event exists in Islam. In the OT it takes place when Moses sprinkles sacrificial blood on the Hebrew people; in the NT it takes place at the crucifixion. In Islam the idea of a covenant is more of a vague concept of obligation, and often the words “law” and “covenant” are coextensive. It has more to do with obedience than a covenant-making act. Regardless, this is not in line with how the OT nor the NT view the definition of a covenant.
   
   Now, I would like to make a request myself, and one that relates to the original subject…
   
   I would like, Hadi, for you to please quote one section of the Koran that makes a direct quote from the OT or NT. And I mean a direct quotation - not a vague reference to an event, nor a passage that names a few prophets, but a direct quote from the OT or NT. If you can find at least one passage in the Koran which has one, we’ll see that the Koran is consistent at least to some degree with God’s method of revelation before the advent of Islam

 

[Aydan]

Yes this question has already been addressed much earlier in the thread and I’m satisfied that I am fully aware of the Muslim interpretation of this event so it has not been brought up because it has already been fully addressed but thank you for your reply.

I havn’t read the entire thread, and I don’t think this point has been brought up.

The occasion for the revelation of this Chapter was a historic event which took place. Once the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) was with some the rich individuals of Quraish from the tribe of Umayad, among them was Uthman Ibn Affan, who took the office of caliphate later. While the Messenger of Allah was preaching them, Abdullah Ibn Umm Maktoom who was blind and was one of the companions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) came to see him. The Holy Prophet received him with honor and pleasure and gave him the closest place to himself. However, the Prophet did not answer the question of the blind immediately Since he was at the middle of his speech with the Qurashites. Since Abdullah was poor and blind, the chieftains of the Quraish looked down upon him and they did not like the honor and the respect bestowed upon him by the Prophet (PBUH&HF). They also did not like the presence of the blind among themselves and his interrupting their conversation with the Prophet (PBUH&HF). Finally one of the wealthy Umayad (namely Uthman Ibn Affan) frowned at Abdullah and turned his back to him.

This act of the chieftains of Quraish displeased Allah and thus He revealed the Chapter 80 (Abas) through Gabriel at the same time. This Chapter commended Abdullah’s position though poor and blind. In the first 4 verses, Allah denounced the detesting attitude of the chieftain of the Quraish. And in the later verses, Allah * reminds * his Prophet (PBUH&HF) that preaching an unbeliever is not necessary if the unbeliever does not intend to purify himself and offenses a believer just because of his lack of wealth and health.

There are some Sunni commentators who align the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) along with below-average ordinary morals, and accuse him of insulting Abdullah, and by that, they try to say that he was not free from the weakness of character and conduct. This is while the one who insulted the poor man was a wealthy member of Umayad who was either still non-Muslim, or had recently joint the companions (namely Uthman). Yet some people, in order to clear the face of Uthman from such misconduct, do not have any hesitation to accuse the Prophet of such action, and to put down the Prophet in favor of Uthman. Such twist of the event was done by the Umayad during their reign through pay-roll narrators. It is well-known that Umayad were the most ardent enemies of the family of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) and Islam; as such, it was not befitting of them that their leader, Uthman, be reprimanded in the Quran; thus, the scholars who worked for the Umayad were forced to write that this verse was revealed to reprimand the Prophet (PBUH&HF), not Uthman. Such flat-out lie was to preserve the dignity of Uthman with the price of humiliating the master of all the prophets.

Quran does NOT give any evidence that the person who frowned at the blind was the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and does not state who is being addressed. In the above verses of Quran Allah (SWT) did NOT address the Prophet either by name or title (i.e. O Muhammad, or O Prophet, or O Messenger). Moreover, there exists switching in the pronoun from “he” in the first two verses to “you” in the later verses of the chapter. Allah did NOT state: “You frowned and turned away”.

Moreover, frowning is not from the manners/descriptions of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) even with his obvious enemies, let alone believers seeking guidance! One may question how can a Prophet (PBUH&HF) who was sent as a mercy to mankind be cruel when an AVERAGE believer does not in such behavior? This allegation is also in contradiction with the announcement of the sublime morals and the ethics of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) by God himself:

"And most certainly you are on sublime morality (exalted standard of character)." (Quran, al-Qalam 68:4).

 

[Hadi]

As for Ishamel,unless you think praising Ishmael equals to making a covenant , I don’t see anywhere in the Quran where Allah say that His covenant was given to Ishmael and not Issac …as for the sacriface,the name is not mentioned in the Quran…and why is Isaac mentioned more than once in the Quran if God didn’t want him…

This is incorrect. God did not grant Ishmael to Abraham - that was a human scheme planned by Sarah, who realized due to her barren nature she could not give Abraham a son (see Genesis 16). It was when Sarah was granted by God the ability to give birth even in her old age that Abraham received a son by miracle - this was planned by God (see Genesis 18, as well as the end of Genesis 17).

So Ishamel was born out of Sarah’s will and not God’s will …intresting…so who created Ishamel ?..was Ishmael born as a mistake ??

I would like, Hadi, for you to please quote one section of the Koran that makes a direct quote from the OT or NT. And I mean a direct quotation - not a vague reference to an event, nor a passage that names a few prophets, but a direct quote from the OT or NT. If you can find at least one passage in the Koran which has one, we’ll see that the Koran is consistent at least to some degree with God’s method of revelation before the advent of Islam

Sorry , but I don’t expect God to quoute from a scribe

 

[Aydan]

Most Muslims also denounce the Old Testament (Torat) as well, pointing out what they perceive to be errors in storytelling and/or teachings.

I just had to tell you this I was watching one of those debates between Christians and Muslims about whether or not Mohammed is a true prophet of God and at the very end the Muslim scholar stated that the Bible was completely corrupt and meaningless and I quote "the Bible is full of lies so Muslims do not pay attention to it. Regarding the marriage to the nine-year-old girl the Muslim scholar actually said that his mother married young and it was perfectly fine and Christian should just get over it as he put it. He went on to say that it was perfectly okay for Mohammed to have sex with her because they were married! My jaw hit the floor I couldn’t believe my ears.