Question on Islam -- round 4

[Sam_777]

Another general question:

Why do Muslims believe Muhammad?

Because he was an Arab, he brought power and politics to Arabs when they were worth nothing (politically and morally) infront of the Jews.

Even now, what Arabic countries have other than Islam!!!, no innovations, no democracy, no wisdom.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

With all due respect to everyone present, when someone asks a question about Islam, could we please to allow one of the Muslims to respond first before bringing in our own argument, so that we at least allow the side being questioned to have a chance to defend themselves? We have many Muslim members here who are very active, and they can most likely respond to the person’s question within 24 hours.

 

[planten]

Another general question:

Why do Muslims believe Muhammad? It appears that he is just one man who received this revelation which contradicts previous scriptures. What makes his revelation more believable than any other person - what proof has he provided that his revelations are from God?

This may have been answered before and I apologize for any redundancy.

**Jay, no need to apologize. Revelations are superior to inspirations. Revelations are from above and from outside. Inspirations are from inside of a good person. They belong to him only, i.e. from him to himself. Inspirations are the ideas of one self.

But revelation is not a self generated message. All proper good revelations are from God, the same One God. So there cannot be any difference in the message. God would not give one message to Abraham and a different message to Moses and a different message to Jesus and a different message to Muhammad.

If there is any difference, it may only be the bad work of some men who mutilated the original message, or who misinterpretted the message.

Revelation is from God care of the angels. It comes to a person who receives the message. Nobody can see the angel coming and going. I want to know from you about Jesus too. He was doing what his father (God) was telling him to do. Jesus was saying what God wanted him to say.

Can you tell me how was Jesus getting the message?? How was he knowing what God wanted him to do. He said that he was sent. So he was a messenger on a mission. He was being guided by God / Allah. Can you tell me how he was being guided? How did he know what to do at a certain time? Please let us know what the church says about it and what do you know about such things.

There is no bad intention.

Also, perhaps you believe that God is the God of all creation, i.e. the God of the Indians and Bangalis and Japanese. Did God reveal anything to those people?? Did God talk to them too. Or God talked to only Israelis and christians??

Islam teaches that God spoke to all nations of the world.
**

 

[planten]

Because he was an Arab, he brought power and politics to Arabs when they were worth nothing (politically and morally) infront of the Jews.

Even now, what Arabic countries have other than Islam!!!, no innovations, no democracy, no wisdom.

**Sam_777, all Muslims are not Arabs. It is the message that was given by Allah to Muhammad that was The Truth. people got attracted to it and supported it. There was no Co-ercion or compulsion. Every one was free to accept or reject. But some people got up to stop the message of Islam by use of sword.

They ( The Kuffar) were the enemies of all faiths, as there had been in past too, in the time of Moses and Jesus. Those in the time of Jesus were not nice people. They tried to kill Jesus. They were Kafir. Jesus could not do anything against them, being under the Roman rule. Yet he did his best to spread the message of Islam (Peace) by his love and gentleness. There was no other way. He could not take any harsh step against his enemies.

You are right. Muhammad brought all the good things to his followers. It was not Arabs only. Remember that many Arabs opposed him and did not benefit from the message of Muhammad. Many who were not Arabs, they believed and benefitted.

Before Muhammad came, the Arabs and the rest of the world was sunk deep in paganism and bad deeds. Arabs were the worst people.they used to kill their daughters… They used to marry their widowed mothers. They used to drink and dance. They used to kill for nothing. They used to take away the wealth of the orphans… The list is very long. They used to have many wives.

The Persians also hated the Arabs and so did all the others.

The situation changed after Muhammad came with the new message of Peace and Unitarian faith. naturally, there was a struggle.

It is all well known. What does it matter that the Muslims are misled now?. It does not go against the message of Muhammad. Please consider over all achievements of the prophet Muhammad…**

 

[jakasaki]

Another general question:

Why do Muslims believe Muhammad? It appears that he is just one man who received this revelation which contradicts previous scriptures. What makes his revelation more believable than any other person - what proof has he provided that his revelations are from God?
This may have been answered before and I apologize for any redundancy.

Jay - hopefully you’ll get answers from our muslim members, but I do want to share some reading I’ve been doing for a while.

In the Catholic Encyclopia, it lists “Apocryphal Gospels” and some facts about them. It also explains when they were written and why they never made it in the Bible.

One of these books is called: **The Arabic Gospel of The Infancy of The Saviour **

In it, the opening passage reads as follows:

We find what follows in the book of Joseph the high priest, who lived in the time of Christ.

Some say that he is Caiaphas.

He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when He was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, **as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me **for the salvation of the world.

Now, if you look at the koran about Baby Jesus speaking in the craddles it states:

In Sura 19:30,

**Jesus says, “I am the servant of Allah,” **…

But in the Arabic Infancy Gospel, he says, “I am Jesus, the Son of God.”

This is just one example where mohamad altered the story to fit his denial of the Sonship of Christ.

If you research all of the Apocryphal Gospels listed in the Catholic Encyclopia, read them and then to go the koran, you will find them there - somewhat distorted - but they are there.

These are not revelations from God to Gabriel to mohamad. These are tales mohamad already knew and heard and ended up in the koran.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

In addition, I have always tried to show that when the apostles were sent out among the Jews, they never argued, “Well you Jews don’t get Jesus because you twisted your scripture and changed it.” They argued with scripture. Say what you want about the apostles, they knew their Jewish scripture. The NT is confirmed by the OT.

Now when we get the Koran, this logic is turned upside down. Suddenly the NT and OT need to be confirmed by a later revelation, and if there are any contradictions in the Koran that’s the fault of the previous revelations. Why did God suddenly change His method of revelation?

 

[jakasaki]

In addition, I have always tried to show that when the apostles were sent out among the Jews, they never argued, “Well you Jews don’t get Jesus because you twisted your scripture and changed it.” They argued with scripture. Say what you want about the apostles, they knew their Jewish scripture. The NT is confirmed by the OT.

Now when we get the Koran, this logic is turned upside down. Suddenly the NT and OT need to be confirmed by a later revelation, and if there are any contradictions in the Koran that’s the fault of the previous revelations.** Why did God suddenly change His method of revelation**?

God did NOT change His method of revelation. The koran is a made up book by mohamad compiled by a bunch of his followers, no chronological order, nothing matching Biblical and historical accounts.

It cannot be a book of God - it can only be of man made.

 

[Jay53]

** It is the message that was given by Allah to Muhammad that was The Truth. people got attracted to it and supported it. **

This is my question!! HOW did they know that it was the Truth? Why did people and why do people today believe Muhammad when the Quran contradicts previous scriptures?

Anyone can come along and say they have been given the Truth - how and why do Muslims believe that Muhammad was given the message from God?

 

[famdigy]

This is my question!! HOW did they know that it was the Truth? Why did people and why do people today believe Muhammad when the Quran contradicts previous scriptures?

Anyone can come along and say they have been given the Truth - how and why do Muslims believe that Muhammad was given the message from God?

Jay53, I can’t speak for anyone who converts to Islam and follows the path, as everyone who converts does so with their own understanding. Many convert were first driven to search outside their faith because they had questions that are unsatisfactorily answered by the ideologies they hold. It could be questions about human existence, purpose, creation etc… And for many, Islam is a satisfactory conclusion. With the help of rational arguments and proof they comprehend the principles of religion. In a way they relate more to Islam and the Quran then they did in their previous ideology.

I can’t speak for anyone else and what was good enough for me may not be good enough for someone else, in this way there really isn’t a “smoking Gun” or proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

personally, I like the practicality in Islam, I like the wholesome way of life and the clear guidelines it provides to living that life. I like that there are rational arguments for everything I believe which are not shrouded in Mystery and are clear to understand.

 

[planten]

This is my question!! HOW did they know that it was the Truth? Why did people and why do people today believe Muhammad when the Quran contradicts previous scriptures?

Anyone can come along and say they have been given the Truth - how and why do Muslims believe that Muhammad was given the message from God?

Jay, I had asked you a similar question. Perhaps you did not notice it. here it is again:

Revelation is from God care of the angels. It comes to a person who receives the message. Nobody can see the angel coming and going. I want to know from you about Jesus too. He was doing what his father (God) was telling him to do. Jesus was saying what God wanted him to say.

Can you tell me how was Jesus getting the message?? How was he knowing what God wanted him to do. He said that he was sent. So he was a messenger on a mission. He was being guided by God / Allah. Can you tell me how he was being guided? How did he know what to do at a certain time?

Please reply, how was Jesus getting the messages from God?

 

[Hadi]

Now when we get the Koran, this logic is turned upside down. Suddenly the NT and OT need to be confirmed by a later revelation, and if there are any contradictions in the Koran that’s the fault of the previous revelations. Why did God suddenly change His method of revelation?

Please show me theological contradictions between the Torah and the Quran

 

[Jay53]

Jay53, I can’t speak for anyone who converts to Islam and follows the path, as everyone who converts does so with their own understanding. Many convert were first driven to search outside their faith because they had questions that are unsatisfactorily answered by the ideologies they hold. It could be questions about human existence, purpose, creation etc… And for many, Islam is a satisfactory conclusion. With the help of rational arguments and proof they comprehend the principles of religion. In a way they relate more to Islam and the Quran then they did in their previous ideology.

I can’t speak for anyone else and what was good enough for me may not be good enough for someone else, in this way there really isn’t a “smoking Gun” or proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

personally, I like the practicality in Islam, I like the wholesome way of life and the clear guidelines it provides to living that life. I like that there are rational arguments for everything I believe which are not shrouded in Mystery and are clear to understand.

Thank you for your response, famdigy. But, how do you know that it is from God - if someone else came along with something ‘practical’ and with ‘clear guidelines’ would you then follow that religion, believing it to be from God? I wouldn’t think so, but that is what I am wondering. Christianity was here for ~600 years before Muhammad came along and changed things. How do you know he was right in his revelations - that they were from God. Why do you believe him?

Just as another example, Joseph Smith came along and started Mormonism claiming he had revelations from God - how do you know that he doesn’t have the True Revelation?

 

[Jay53]

Jay, I had asked you a similar question. Perhaps you did not notice it. here it is again:

Please reply, how was Jesus getting the messages from God?

What does this have to do with my question?
(Although I will say, Jesus IS God; He doesn’t need angels to give Him any messages. )

Are you saying you believe in Muhammad because you believe that only angels give the messages from God? Then my question becomes, what did Muhammad do/say that makes you believe he actually received a message from an angel? Why don’t you believe Joseph Smith who also received a message from an angel?

 

[elwill]

Another general question:

Why do Muslims believe Muhammad? It appears that he is just one man who received this revelation which contradicts previous scriptures. What makes his revelation more believable than any other person - what proof has he provided that his revelations are from God?

This may have been answered before and I apologize for any redundancy.

what a great question . jay

Muhammad (P.B.U.H) the son of `Abdullaah, is Allaah’s Prophet and the Final Messenger sent by Allaah to the inhabitants of the earth. You should know that he (P.B.U.H) is Allaah’s Messenger in reality and truth. The evidences that show his veracity are abundant. None but an infidel, who out of arrogance alone, could deny these signs.
Among these proofs:

1. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death. Among all his people, he (P.B.U.H) was known as being truthful and trustworthy. Before receiving revelation, he (P.B.U.H) had no prior knowledge of religion or any previously sent Message. He (P.B.U.H) remained like that for his first forty years. Revelation then came to Muhammad (P.B.U.H) with the Quran that we now have between our hands. This Quran mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he (P.B.U.H) witnessed them. These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses (P.B.U.H) and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus (P.B.U.H). Never the less, neither the Jews nor the Christians believed anything that he (P.B.U.H) said.
2. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) also foretold of everything that would occur to him and his community after him, pertaining to victory, the removal of the tyrannical kingdoms of Chosroes [the royal title for the Zoroastrian kings of Persia] and Caesar, and the establishment of the religion of Islam throughout the earth. These events occurred exactly as Muhammad (P.B.U.H) foretold, as if he (P.B.U.H) was reading the future from an open book.
3. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) also conveyed an Arabic Quran that is the peak of eloquence and clarity. The Quran challenged those eloquent and fluent Arabs of his time, who initially belied him, to bring forth a single chapter like the Quran. The eloquent Arabs of his day were unable to contest this Quran. Indeed, till our day, none has ever dared to claim that he has been able to compose words that equal-or even approach-the order, grace, beauty and splendor of this Glorious Quran.
4. The life history of this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H) was a perfect example of being upright, merciful, compassionate, truthful, brave, generous, distant from all evil character, and ascetic in all worldly matters, while striving solely for the reward of the Hereafter. Moreover, in all his actions and dealings, he (P.B.U.H) was ever mindful and fearful of Allaah.
5. Allaah instilled great love for Muhammad (P.B.U.H) in the hearts of all who believed in and met him (P.B.U.H). This love reached such a degree that any of his companions would willingly sacrifice his (or her) self, mother or father for him (P.B.U.H). Till today, those who believe in Muhammad (P.B.U.H) honor and love him. Anyone of those who believe in him would ransom his own family and wealth to see him (P.B.U.H) even if but once.
6. All of history has not preserved the biography of any person in the manner it has preserved the life of Muhammad (P.B.U.H) who is the most influential human in history. Nor has the entire earth known of anyone whom every morning and evening, and many times thereafter throughout the day, is thought of by those who believe in him. Upon remembering Muhammad (P.B.U.H) the believers in him will greet him and ask Allaah to bless him (P.B.U.H) and exalt his status. They do such with full hearts and true love for him (P.B.U.H).
7. Nor has there every been a man on earth whom is still followed in all his doings by those who believe in him (P.B.U.H). Those who believe in Muhammad (P.B.U.H)sleep in the manner he (P.B.U.H) slept; purify themselves (through ablution and ritual washing) in the manner he (P.B.U.H) purified himself; and adhere to his practice in the way they eat, drink, and clothe themselves.
8. There has never been, nor will there ever be, a man anywhere upon this earth who has received such love, respect, honor, and obedience in all matters, small and large alike, as has this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H).
9. Since his days, in every region of the earth and during every period, this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H) has been followed by individuals from all nations, colors and peoples. Many of those who followed him were previously Christians, Jews, pagans, idolaters, or without any religion. Among those who chose to follow him, were those who were known for their sound judgment, wisdom, reflection, and foresight. They chose to follow this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H)after they witnessed the signs of his truthfulness and the evidences of his miracles. They did not choose to follow Muhammad (P.B.U.H) out of compulsion or coercion or because they had adopted the ways of their fathers and mothers.

Indeed many of the followers of this Prophet (P.B.U.H) chose to follow him during the time when Islam was weak, when there were few Muslims, and when there was severe persecution of his followers on earth. People who have followed this Prophet (P.B.U.H) have not done so to acquire some material benefits. Indeed many of his followers have suffered the greatest forms of harm and persecution as a result of following him. Despite all this harm and persecution, this did not turn them back from his religion. All of this clearly indicates, to anyone possessing any sense, that this Prophet (P.B.U.H) was truly and really Allaah’s messenger and that he (P.B.U.H) was not just a man who claimed prophethood or spoke about Allaah without knowledge.

 

[Sam_777]

People who have followed this Prophet (P.B.U.H) have not done so to acquire some material benefits.

What you call the war booty, the Jizya, the concubines, the virgins in paradise, the political power, …etc.

 

[elwill]

1. It is impossible that any person conceive wisdom, morals, good manners, and nobleness of characters as what this honorable Prophet (P.B.U.H) brought. In a full and complete manner, Muhammad (P.B.U.H) spread a teaching regarding character and manners toward one’s parents, relatives, fiends, family, humanity, animals, plants and inanimate objects. It is impossible for the human mind alone to grasp all of that teaching or come with a similar teaching. All of that unequivocally indicates that this Messenger (P.B.U.H) did not bring any of this religion from his own accord, but that it was rather a teaching and inspiration that he (P.B.U.H) received from The One Who created the earth and the high heavens above and created this universe in its miraculous architecture and perfection.
2. The legal and creedal make-up of the religion that the Messenger Muhammad (P.B.U.H) brought resembles the engineering of the heavens and the earth. All of that indicates that He Who created the heavens and the earth is The One Who sent down this great law and upright religion. The degree of inimitability of the Divine law that was sent down upon Muhammad (P.B.U.H) is to the same degree of inimitability of the Divine creation of the heavens and the earth. For just as humanity cannot create this universe, in the same manner humanity cannot bring forth a law like Allaah’s law that He sent down upon His servant and messenger Muhammad (P.B.U.H).

you tell me jay
why any muslim will leave his relegion and worship someone (jesus) never asked his followers to worship him?
why any muslim will leave the unique God they worship to believe in unlogic trinity God ?
and why in the first place they will believe in trinity while jesus never describe or mentioned it ?
why any muslims will trust records written by normal human and then doubt in the words of mohammed (pbuh)

why any muslim should to worship jesus where we have one and only one from his discples said to him o’ my lord my God , yet he said these words after curcifixion of jesus as if it wasn’t somthing worth to mention by jesus about himself before his curcifixion
how i base my belief in one statement said by just one who is known by doubting thomas ?

 

[elwill]

What you call the war booty, the Jizya, the concubines, the virgins in paradise, the political power, …etc.

war booty was for the victorious whether from muslims or thier enemy , so i didn’t find it good reason for someone to leave his religion for it

seems to me that you forgot about zakat , because muslims actuly pay more than nonmuslims , it’s another bad reason for someone leave his religion to not pay jiziah rather he will pay more in zakat

what about paradise , i see it good reason for someone to convert for the virgins in paradise , it proof at least that he trust mohammed (pbuh) about the heavin

and political power , what silly statement , how many of people convert for political power , how many political positions in that time after all?

 

[sedonaman]

What you call the war booty, the Jizya, the concubines, the virgins in paradise, the political power, …etc.

The rightful property of Allah’s prophet and believers.

 

[Jay53]

Muhammad (P.B.U.H) the son of `Abdullaah, is Allaah’s Prophet and the Final Messenger sent by Allaah to the inhabitants of the earth. You should know that he (P.B.U.H) is Allaah’s Messenger in reality and truth. The evidences that show his veracity are abundant. None but an infidel, who out of arrogance alone, could deny these signs.
Among these proofs:
Then, apparently I am an arrogant infidel!

1. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death. Among all his people, he (P.B.U.H) was known as being truthful and trustworthy. Before receiving revelation, he (P.B.U.H) had no prior knowledge of religion or any previously sent Message. He (P.B.U.H) remained like that for his first forty years. Revelation then came to Muhammad (P.B.U.H) with the Quran that we now have between our hands. This Quran mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he (P.B.U.H) witnessed them. These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses (P.B.U.H) and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus (P.B.U.H). Never the less, neither the Jews nor the Christians believed anything that he (P.B.U.H) said.

What Gospel “sent down” to Jesus? I have yet to see any evidence of this - simply Muhammad’s word that the Christian’s corrupted it. And I thought that there were discrepancies between accounts from the Old Testament and New Testament vs. the Quran. (i.e. Jesus speaking from the cradle, Mary giving birth under a palm tree etc.)

1. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) also foretold of everything that would occur to him and his community after him, pertaining to victory, the removal of the tyrannical kingdoms of Chosroes [the royal title for the Zoroastrian kings of Persia] and Caesar, and the establishment of the religion of Islam throughout the earth. These events occurred exactly as Muhammad (P.B.U.H) foretold, as if he (P.B.U.H) was reading the future from an open book.

This might be a plausible reason. Is foretelling the future a sign of a prophet from God? Does anyone know?

1. Muhammad (P.B.U.H) also conveyed an Arabic Quran that is the peak of eloquence and clarity. The Quran challenged those eloquent and fluent Arabs of his time, who initially belied him, to bring forth a single chapter like the Quran. The eloquent Arabs of his day were unable to contest this Quran. Indeed, till our day, none has ever dared to claim that he has been able to compose words that equal-or even approach-the order, grace, beauty and splendor of this Glorious Quran.

This is strictly opinion and does not prove it is from God.

1. The life history of this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H) was a perfect example of being upright, merciful, compassionate, truthful, brave, generous, distant from all evil character, and ascetic in all worldly matters, while striving solely for the reward of the Hereafter. Moreover, in all his actions and dealings, he (P.B.U.H) was ever mindful and fearful of Allaah.

No offense, but this is a load of baloney!!! He is NOT a perfect example - he killed people, he ordered people killed. He did not remain faithful to one wife after Khadijah died. This is strictly an opinion and not proof that his revelations were from God.

1. Allaah instilled great love for Muhammad (P.B.U.H) in the hearts of all who believed in and met him (P.B.U.H). This love reached such a degree that any of his companions would willingly sacrifice his (or her) self, mother or father for him (P.B.U.H). Till today, those who believe in Muhammad (P.B.U.H) honor and love him. Anyone of those who believe in him would ransom his own family and wealth to see him (P.B.U.H) even if but once.

Again, this is pure conjecture and proves nothing about his revelations being from God. This also says that people would sacrifice themselves and their families for Muhammad, but would he do the same for them? Jesus did!!!

1. All of history has not preserved the biography of any person in the manner it has preserved the life of Muhammad (P.B.U.H) who is the most influential human in history. Nor has the entire earth known of anyone whom every morning and evening, and many times thereafter throughout the day, is thought of by those who believe in him. Upon remembering Muhammad (P.B.U.H) the believers in him will greet him and ask Allaah to bless him (P.B.U.H) and exalt his status. They do such with full hearts and true love for him (P.B.U.H).

Again this is not true. There is controversy/speculation as to whether he was actually illiterate or not, the age of Aisha, etc.
It is, again, pure opinion that he is the most influential human in history. This does not prove that his revelations are from God.

1. Nor has there every been a man on earth whom is still followed in all his doings by those who believe in him (P.B.U.H). Those who believe in Muhammad (P.B.U.H)sleep in the manner he (P.B.U.H) slept; purify themselves (through ablution and ritual washing) in the manner he (P.B.U.H) purified himself; and adhere to his practice in the way they eat, drink, and clothe themselves.

This does not prove that his revelations are from God. It actually makes me think that the people who follow him and have to do everything as he did have some form of OCD.

1. There has never been, nor will there ever be, a man anywhere upon this earth who has received such love, respect, honor, and obedience in all matters, small and large alike, as has this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H).

Again, pure opinion. Personally, I think Jesus is a better person.

 

[Jay53]

1. Since his days, in every region of the earth and during every period, this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H) has been followed by individuals from all nations, colors and peoples. Many of those who followed him were previously Christians, Jews, pagans, idolaters, or without any religion. Among those who chose to follow him, were those who were known for their sound judgment, wisdom, reflection, and foresight. They chose to follow this Noble Prophet (P.B.U.H)after they witnessed the signs of his truthfulness and the evidences of his miracles. They did not choose to follow Muhammad (P.B.U.H) out of compulsion or coercion or because they had adopted the ways of their fathers and mothers.

This is more of what I am looking for - WHAT “signs of his truthfulness and the evidences of his miracles.”? What did he do that proves his revelations are from God?

Indeed many of the followers of this Prophet (P.B.U.H) chose to follow him during the time when Islam was weak, when there were few Muslims, and when there was severe persecution of his followers on earth. People who have followed this Prophet (P.B.U.H) have not done so to acquire some material benefits. Indeed many of his followers have suffered the greatest forms of harm and persecution as a result of following him. Despite all this harm and persecution, this did not turn them back from his religion. All of this clearly indicates, to anyone possessing any sense, that this Prophet (P.B.U.H) was truly and really Allaah’s messenger and that he (P.B.U.H) was not just a man who claimed prophethood or spoke about Allaah without knowledge.

This answers nothing. Christians were also persecuted.

This whole lists does not answer my question - it is pure conjecture and opinion by a very arrogant individual as well. (as evidenced by the very last sentence!)