Question on Islam -- round 4

[Byzantine_Wolf]

As for Ishamel,unless you think praising Ishmael equals to making a covenant , I don’t see anywhere in the Quran where Allah say that His covenant was given to Ishmael and not Issac …

I never said it wasn’t given to Isaac (read my post again, please), but that in the Koran it often speaks of Ishmael with those whom were promised the covenant. As I pointed out, this contradicts what God Himself said to Abraham. The inclusion of Ishmael with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is also a strange addition that doesn’t comply with the constant use of those names throughout the OT and NT. If you read the OT, you’ll find that once Hagar and Ishmael settle down they’re rarely mentioned. It isn’t until Islam that you suddenly hear a lot about Ishmael again.

as for the sacriface,the name is not mentioned in the Quran…and why is Isaac mentioned more than once in the Quran if God didn’t want him…

I never said God didn’t want Isaac. Do not misrepresent my opinion.

Furthermore, if you read the passages in the Koran involving the sacrifice, they actually never mention a name - but all the passages beforehand involve Ishmael.

Also, you’ve ignored that an entire Muslim holiday is dedicated to the fact it was Ishmael who was almost sacrificed, not Isaac. If you believe there is fault in this, the problem lies in your religion, not my argument.

So Ishamel was born out of Sarah’s will and not God’s will …intresting…so who created Ishamel ?..was Ishmael born as a mistake ??

With all due respect, did you even bother to go and read the source I provided you? This would have most likely answered your questions.

Was Ishmael born of a mistake? He was born out of a poorly thought out plan. Sarah was eventually too hard-hearted, and she didn’t think things through. He was not given to Abraham by God. The Koran, however, states that Ishmael was provided to Abraham by God, when in fact it was Sarah’s own planning who provided Ishmael to Abraham. God only planned the birth of Isaac, and Isaac was the only son given to Abraham by God.

Sorry , but I don’t expect God to quoute from a scribe

I’ll have to take that as a no. Why? Because the Koran never once directly quotes from the previous scriptures, or else you could have provided at least one example. Mohammad’s cry of “I’m confirmed in your holy books” can only be taken as the circular logic it is often presented as in modern Muslim apologetics. As I’ve pointed out time and time again, God, His prophets, and His apostles always used what came before to verify what they are presenting now. Why did God change this suddenly with the Koran? Why couldn’t Mohammad, under divine guidance, quote the Torat and Injil that Allah (and not a scribe) claimed to have sent down?

I just had to tell you this I was watching one of those debates between Christians and Muslims about whether or not Mohammed is a true prophet of God and at the very end the Muslim scholar stated that the Bible was completely corrupt and meaningless and I quote “the Bible is full of lies so Muslims do not pay attention to it.”

Sadly that’s what the early Muslims argued too.

Narrated Ubaidullah:

Ibn 'Abbas said, “Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah’s Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!” Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461]

Regarding the marriage to the nine-year-old girl the Muslim scholar actually said that his mother married young and it was perfectly fine and Christian should just get over it as he put it. He went on to say that it was perfectly okay for Mohammed to have sex with her because they were married! My jaw hit the floor I couldn’t believe my ears.

I heard something even more gross, regarding their “consummation.” A Muslim woman speaking on it said, “Aisha was probably the happiest girl in Islam that night.”

:ehh:

 

[sedonaman]

…
Perhaps I have not made my question clear, but I don’t know how else to ask it. I just want to know why Muslims believe Muhammad. They don’t believe Joseph Smith who claims to have received revelations from an angel and claims to be a prophet from God so there must be something specific about Muhammad that he somehow proved that his messages were from God.

…

Islamic logic is full of fallacies, and circular reasoning is no exception. Stripped of all its flowery rhetoric and flimflammery, Mohammed’s proof goes something like this: “I am a prophet of God by my own self-declaration; this declaration must be true because a prophet of God made it; and if you doubt a prophet of God, you are a sinner.”

 

[jakasaki]

Originally Posted by Hadi
Please show me theological contradictions between the Torah and the Quran

Why does this happen all of the time with muslim members. First they wish to see “contradictions between the Torah and the koran”

Contradictions are posted and the user requests a “quote from the koran to match the Torah” - and this is the answer to his request…

QUOTE=Hadi;5420151]

Sorry , but I don’t expect God to quoute from a scribe

Well then, - now all of the sudden the Torah is from a “scribe”.

Well Hadi, perhaps you should look into the koran because ** The word(s) “torah” appears 17 time(s) in 15 verse(s) in Quran in Pickthal translation. **

I’ll post just a few for you review since you believe the koran is from allah…

He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the **torah **and the Gospel.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #3)

And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the **torah **and the Gospel,
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #48)

And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #50)

O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the **torah **and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #65)

All food was lawful unto the Children of Israel, save that which Israel forbade himself, (in days) before the **torah **was revealed. Say: Produce the torah and read it (unto us) if ye are truthful.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #93)

searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=torah&chapter=&translator=4&search=1&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

 

[planten]

Whoever posted that:
This is incorrect. God did not grant Ishmael to Abraham - that was a human scheme planned by Sarah, who realized due to her barren nature she could not give Abraham a son (see Genesis 16). It was when Sarah was granted by God the ability to give birth even in her old age that Abraham received a son by miracle - this was planned by God (see Genesis 18, as well as the end of Genesis 17).

**It is a narrow minded view to say that Ishmael was not born by the will of God. In fact,it was all done by the Will of God that the idea was put in the head of Sarah to do justice to her husband. (Abraham). That was the plan of God, not anything of Sarah.

And God knew it all very well and wanted it that way. God blessed Ishmael too. It is all written in the BibleOT. Nobody can deny it.

The name of the sacrificed son is not mentioned in the Quran for soem good reason ( Iwill not disclose it here now). But if any one will read chapter 37 of Quran from verse 83 onward to verse 112, he/she will become sure that the sacrifice offered was that of Ishmael. The sacrifice demanded by God was also of Ishmael.

Issac was not even born at the time of the sacrifice. The incident of the scrifice is described in a haphazard way in the OT. Abraham takes his son Issac for sacrifice and does not tell him what he was doing. The son was asking about the lamb and Abraham said that it will be provided. In other words Abraham did not tell Issac that he was the lamb.

But in the Quran we read that Abraham was asked to sacrifice the most beloved thing in the way of Allah. He tried to fulfil the vision by slaughtering some animals. But he had the same vision again and again. The ne realised that the most dear thing for him was the only son of old age that Ishmael. So he told Ishmael about it. Ishmael responded in the positive and told his father that he should fulfil the command of Allah.

issac could not be sacrificed because Abraham was told by Allah before birth of Issac that he would live to be a prophet. See verse 37:112.

Also Issac was not even born at the time of sacrifice. the sacrifice is always of the first fruit. Issac was never the only son of Abraham. The birth of Issac was due the sacrifice of Ishamel. Allah was pleased with Abraham by the sacrifice that Allah gave good news to Abraham and Sarah about another son for them.

If any one reads Quran ch. 37 verses 83 to 112, it will become very clear that sacrifice was of Ishmael.**

 

[sedonaman]

**
…
If any one reads Quran ch. 37 verses 83 to 112, it will become very clear that sacrifice was of Ishmael.**

If anyone watches the TV pitchman, it will become very clear that the viewer needs whatever it is the pitchman is selling. What makes the Qur’an the authority on anything, much less the Bible?

 

[jakasaki]

Sorry , but I don’t expect God to quoute from a scribe

Who do you think wrote the koran you have today?

A bunch of scribes mohamad had and then after mohamads death Uthman got hold of the bits and pieces of what was written and put a non-chronological book together, and only allah knows how many verses were lost during the wars and the scribes being killed.

 

[Hadi]

Who do you think wrote the koran you have today?

A bunch of scribes mohamad had and then after mohamads death Uthman got hold of the bits and pieces of what was written and put a non-chronological book together, and only allah knows how many verses were lost during the wars and the scribes being killed.

thanks

 

[Jay53]

Because the evil Christians will abuse him and abuse Muhammad and write too long of posts so that he cannot respond.

 

[Jay53]

I’ve made a summary from elwill’s list of how Muslims determine if a prophet or message is from God. Perhaps they can add or detract from this list as necessary to make sure it is accurate. Perhaps they can also acknowledge if all of these criteria were applied to all previous prophets recognized by Islam and also post where/when God gave His people this criteria to recognizing true vs. false prophets.

How Muslims determine if a person is a prophet and his message is from God:

1. Must be trustworthy and truthful
2. Can foretell future events with accuracy
3. The message is conveyed with eloquence and clarity
4. Must be a “perfect example” of being upright, merciful, compassionate, truthful, brave, generous, distant from all evil character, and ascetic in all worldly matters, while striving solely for the reward of the Hereafter.
5. People must love him and be willing to sacrifice their lives, families and wealth for him
6. History must preserve his biography and he must be thought of throughout each day by those who believe in him
7. He must receive “love, respect, honor, and obedience in all matters, small and large alike”
8. He must be “followed by individuals from all nations, colors and peoples”
9. It must be “impossible for the human mind alone to grasp all of that teaching or come with a similar teaching”

 

[sedonaman]

…
only allah knows how many verses were lost during the wars and the scribes being killed.

Some revelations were eaten up by a goat.
islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=40:ancient-Qur’anic-manuscripts-of-sanaa-spell-downfall-of-islam&catid=18:sujit

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

It is a narrow minded view to say that Ishmael was not born by the will of God. In fact,it was all done by the Will of God that the idea was put in the head of Sarah to do justice to her husband. (Abraham). That was the plan of God, not anything of Sarah.

And God knew it all very well and wanted it that way. God blessed Ishmael too. It is all written in the BibleOT. Nobody can deny it.

People can deny it if they read the OT and know what they’re talking about. No where is Ishmael blessed in the same manner that Isaac is blessed (entering into the covenant with Abraham) and nowhere is Ishmael included with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the same manner that he is in the Koran.

Furthermore, no where in the OT is it said that Ishmael’s birth was God’s plan. This is eisegesis, not exegesis. You have cited blanket opinion with no source to verify it.

The incident of the scrifice is described in a haphazard way in the OT.

No one in the history of mankind has ever had a problem with the sacrifice of Isaac story in the OT. The only people who could possibly have a problem understanding it or believing it to be read “in a haphazard way” are those attempting to read something else into it.

If any one reads Quran ch. 37 verses 83 to 112, it will become very clear that sacrifice was of Ishmael.

Yes, and the Koran is wrong. Apologies, but I’m going to believe the original Jewish sources over a source that came many thousands of years later and not even written by a Jew or member of the Jewish faith, and with no evidence other than his own word.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Because the evil Christians will abuse him and abuse Muhammad and write too long of posts so that he cannot respond.

SHHH!!! Don’t give away our plans. :tsktsk:

 

[sedonaman]

Who do you think wrote the koran you have today? …

Scribes who wrote down what Muhammad’s illiterate wives, concubines, slaves, and a few contacts told them, those who claimed to have heard Muhammad and his companions utter various verses.

Credit: “The Invention of Islam” by Ahmed Simon

 

[Jay53]

SHHH!!! Don’t give away our plans. :tsktsk:

:doh2: Oops!

But I would still really like to know from our Muslim friends how they know that Muhammad’s revelations are from God - actual proof that Muhammad showed/gave to everyone, not a few comments about how everyone liked him and to this day everyone follows him. I don’t think that’s how anyone else (i.e. Abraham, Moses etc) was determined to be from God.

Please note that this is not a baiting or trick question - I am genuinely interested in this topic.

 

[planten]

Islamic logic is full of fallacies, and circular reasoning is no exception. Stripped of all its flowery rhetoric and flimflammery, Mohammed’s proof goes something like this: “I am a prophet of God by my own self-declaration; this declaration must be true because a prophet of God made it; and if you doubt a prophet of God, you are a sinner.”

**sedonaman, We Muslims believe in Muhammad in the same way as we do in Jesus. I have asked you a few times “How was Jesus receiving the message from God?” We know that Jesus was sent. He was guided by God. How was he guided? When any message came to Jesus, did any one else also saw the message coming to Jesus?? I hope not.

Jesus was doing what God wanted him to do. He was saying what God wanted him to say. Could any one tell me how was he getting the message. He was a messenger (prophet). He had prophesied. So Jesus was a prophet. And we Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet of God. he was not God. How Jesus can be a prophet of God and the God at the same time?

There have been other prophets before Jesus and Muhammad. Please read the Old Testament. In that book, the prophets were saying " The Lord God of Israel says like this…". Can you tell me how they knew what the Lord God was saying?

Same is my reply to Jay’s post shown below:**

Originally Posted by Jay53
…
Perhaps I have not made my question clear, but I don’t know how else to ask it. I just want to know why Muslims believe Muhammad. They don’t believe Joseph Smith who claims to have received revelations from an angel and claims to be a prophet from God so there must be something specific about Muhammad that he somehow proved that his messages were from God.

** Why we should not believe in Muhammad when we have no problem in believing Jesus and all the Jewish prophets?? We have no problem. We believe in Muhammad in the same way as we Muslims believe in all the previous prophets of God. We believe that it is illegal to deny even one prophet of God.**

 

[Jay53]

Same is my reply to Jay’s post shown below:

** Why we should not believe in Muhammad when we have no problem in believing Jesus and all the Jewish prophets?? We have no problem. We believe in Muhammad in the same way as we Muslims believe in all the previous prophets of God. We believe that it is illegal to deny even one prophet of God.**

This doesn’t answer HOW you know he was a prophet from God. How do you know he wasn’t just a regular man who had hallucinations and made up all this stuff - or how do you know it wasn’t demonic revelations from Satan trying to lead God’s people astray. His revelations contradicted previous scriptures - how do you know that these contradictions are from God?

 

[planten]

This doesn’t answer HOW you know he was a prophet from God. How do you know he wasn’t just a regular man who had hallucinations and made up all this stuff - or how do you know it wasn’t demonic revelations from Satan trying to lead God’s people astray. His revelations contradicted previous scriptures - how do you know that these contradictions are from God?

**Thanks Jay for clarifying your question. But my Question still stands about Jesus. How he was getting any messages?. That needs to be replied, to establish the commonality between Jesus and Muhammad. You please answer that question. Then I will give you a simple and easy reply to your question.

The primary job of a prophet is to prophecy. Jesus was also a prophet. So was Muhammad. You seem to have difficulty believing that Muhammad was a prophet. So let us establish the prophethood of Jesus and Muhammad first. then we will be able to differentiate between the two. You look after Jesus please. May be you will be unable to do anything for Jesus.

Please establish the prophethood of Jesus first.**

 

[famdigy]

:doh2: Oops!

But I would still really like to know from our Muslim friends how they know that Muhammad’s revelations are from God - actual proof that Muhammad showed/gave to everyone, not a few comments about how everyone liked him and to this day everyone follows him. I don’t think that’s how anyone else (i.e. Abraham, Moses etc) was determined to be from God.

Please note that this is not a baiting or trick question - I am genuinely interested in this topic.

Jay53, when you really trust someone you will believe them and take their word for things you haven’t seen yourself. Even before the Ministry of the Prophet (pbuh&hf) began. He was known to the Makkans by his nickname Al-Amin (The trustworthy). After God asked The holy prophet to proclaim the message publicly, Muhammad (pbuh&hf) first appealed to their knowledge of his character and the trust they established with him, and asked that they listen to the message and give it careful consideration.

[Pickthal 16:125] Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright.

And for those who don’t initially know the Prophet to trust him, they turn to the Quran which establishes rational and logical arguments for all of the fundamentals of the faith that people come to understand and associate with the truth. The Quran appeals to our sense of reason with examples from history, nature and human experience.

Even today it continues to appeal to us through our understanding of the natural world.

Quran 21:30 "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Until recently what the Quran described as one unit of creation that was cleaved asunder was known as the big bang theory. Now it’s just called the big bang, it’s no longer a theory.
Another interesting statement is “we made from water every living thing”, It is an established scientific fact that the buildingblocks of all living things are made up of mostly water, it’s for this reason that scientists now are looking for evidence of water on Mars, to verify whether or not there are living organism on Mars.

There is no other scripture in the world that appeals to human reason at the same level as the Quran. Many of the converts who objectively compare the different arguments in the various religions , converted to Islam because it had the strongest argument.

 

[Jay53]

**Thanks Jay for clarifying your question. But my Question still stands about Jesus. How he was getting any messages?. That needs to be replied, to establish the commonality between Jesus and Muhammad. You please answer that question. Then I will give you a simple and easy reply to your question.

The primary job of a prophet is to prophecy. Jesus was also a prophet. So was Muhammad. You seem to have difficulty believing that Muhammad was a prophet. So let us establish the prophethood of Jesus and Muhammad first. then we will be able to differentiate between the two. You look after Jesus please. May be you will be unable to do anything for Jesus.

Please establish the prophethood of Jesus first.**

I don’t need to establish the prophethood of Jesus first. Jesus is God. He established the Catholic Church. Christianity and the Bible had already been in existence for hundreds of years before Muhammad came along. At the bottom of post #866 I posted a small list of some of the reasons how we how that Jesus and His message are from God - even if you don’t believe that He is God.

After Christianity had already been established - Muhammad comes along and says, No these scriptures are incorrect, the Jews and Christians have corrupted things, divorce is OK, polygamy is OK, you’re supposed to be praying 5 times a day and face this direction, if someone walks in front of you while you’re praying God won’t hear/recognize that prayer etc. I want to know what proof Muhammad gives that we should believe him. So far I haven’t seen anything other than ‘he was a nice guy and trustworthy in business’. I don’t think that cuts it as far as prophethood goes.

 

[sedonaman]

**
sedonaman, We Muslims believe in Muhammad in the same way as we do in Jesus.
**

No you don’t. When was the last time Muslims, any Muslims, rioted because someone insulted Jesus?

**
I have asked you a few times “How was Jesus receiving the message from God?”

Jesus was doing what God wanted him to do. He was saying what God wanted him to say. Could any one tell me how was he getting the message. He was a messenger (prophet). He had prophesied. So Jesus was a prophet. And we Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet of God. he was not God. How Jesus can be a prophet of God and the God at the same time?

There have been other prophets before Jesus and Muhammad. Please read the Old Testament. In that book, the prophets were saying " The Lord God of Israel says like this…". Can you tell me how they knew what the Lord God was saying?
**

And I have asked you many times not to change the subject, which is Islam, not Jesus and not Christianity. I think the reason you keep bringing Jesus and Christianity into the discussion is that Mohammed relied on them and the Old Testament to validate himself, and now you are trying to pull the same trick. Islam and Mohammed are so weak in evidence and substance that they cannot even stand on their own, which is one reason why Islam should be rejected.