Question on Islam.

[Kouyate42]

What if the attributes of the Islamic God are different than that of the Hebrew God? And of course you know the huge differences between Islam and Christianity’s understanding of Jesus.

Again, you base all your assertions as to God’ nature/personality upon a flawed text. Ditto this for the Jews.
You have to understand that I do not accept the Gospel in its present form to be the original Gospel preached by any of the prophets.

If Islam is a “final revelation” why do not Islam and Christinaity have the same Jesus?

Because as I said before, the Christian Bible has been corrupted. There is evidence in the Bible that says Jesus is NOT God but a mere prophet. These passages/verses are quite clearly backed up with Qur’an verses which state the same thing.

Neither Judaism nor Islam accept Jesus as God. But according to Allah, both Jews and Christians have corrupted their scriptures to their own human whims and desires. In the case of Christianity, this has meant Jesus has become God himself and not just the prophet he is.

 

[septimine]

This post is wrong, wrong and wrong again.

Wrong. Islam places great emphasis on action as well as words, and on the Last Day, a scroll will be read with the account of all my good and bad deeds, and this will decide whether I go to Jannah or Jahannum. (Heaven or Hell)
Islam teaches that for all good deeds, Allah will give appropriate rewards whilst here on earth too. Even the smallest good deed is rewarded.

Well, true, but the literature I’ve read (no personal experience with Islam) shows that Muslims are much more concerned with the outward appearance of things. For example, Muslims are required to pray 5x a day, however there’s no concern with whether a person “means” their prayer, just that they say the words. There’s a requirement that you pay the Zukat, but no requirement to otherwise care for the poor. It’s orthopraxy much more than real charity. Christianity is a bit more demanding in that a person is supposed to do what he does out of love for Christ and the person being helped. When a Christian prays he’s supposed to be talking to his Father in heaven, not reciting a prayer the way one would sing the Star Spangled Banner before a ballgame (and no, it doesn’t end with “play ball”). See it’s easy to conform to a list of rules, it’s hard to change who you are to be more like Jesus.

Again, this is wrong, as Islam teaches that there is no compulsion in religion and that you cannot be forced to convert to Islam or to practice it. One of the conditions of shahadah is full acceptance, which requires free choice.

I’ll agree that this is the ideal, but in practice free will is not a big component. Even as recently as a month ago, a Christian pastor was executed in Iran for being a Christian. It’s also common practice to execute apostates – if a person leaves Islam, he’s in danger from his family and if the nation practices Sharia, from the state as well.

Again, this is wrong. Islam isn’t just something you do on Fridays. You can’t switch off being a Muslim at will. Islam is a complete lifestyle with rules on conduct in all aspects of a Muslim’s life from waking to sleeping, as well as religious rules and practices.

well, it’s an orthopraxy, and again, while you might be living the rules of Islam, it does not follow that a person is doing so for Allah so much as to avoid peer pressure or out of fear. This is the fundemental difference – Christians live for Jesus, muslims follow a bunch of practices, and as long as you follow the form of the religion, it’s good. So when you say switch it off, well, you don’t switch off the rules, but it’s not necessarily because you believe anything about Allah, nor that you want to please Allah. Allah might not even be in your thoughts as you recite the prayers. While some Christians do this, we don’t base our view of whether or not a person is Christian according to whether or not they went to church or didn’t eat meat on Friday or gave to the church. For us, it’s faith, and without that you can act the part all you want, but it does no good. It’s the difference between an actor pretending to be a doctor and a doctor. They can both walk down the hallways and use medical terms, but only one is real.

 

[Trebor135]

I am Lebanese, I have conversed extensively with Muslims for years in fact I have many Muslim friends so I advise you not to make rash judgements like that.

Ehelen ya Augustine3, tsharrifnaa. Shou akhbaarak? (Aslé mish bi Libnén, bes ana déris lughtak il-jemiilé min arba`t sniin.)

Back to our regularly scheduled programming…

 

[Trebor135]

Coming at this from the other side, as someone who wishes to practice Islam fully, you have to understand that from the Islamic point of view, what the religion of Islam teaches is NOT new, but in fact the natural, first religion and the true religion of Adam, Eve, Abraham, Moses, Lot and Jesus as well as the Arabic prophets including the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw).

Apart from the Qur’an, what evidence do we have to believe this claim?

Islam actually accepts the Torah and Gospels to be valid revelations from God, albeit corrupted ones.

What exactly is the point of celebrating agreement on the divine origin of texts other than the Qur’an when those works are supposedly now teaching errors that have sendt billions to eternal damnation?

And I’ve seen a quote from a Bahá’í who was accusing Muslims of corrupting their Scripture to cover up that a new prophet would come after Muhammad. How would you respond?

Qur’an is the final revelation of these, not the only revelation.

But why should we accept the Islamic claim that Jesus and Moses brought us books in the same manner as Muhammad did? No one has ever found a “Gospel of Jesus dictated by the Archangel Gabriel” or a “Torah of Moses dictated by the Archangel Gabriel”. And in Sunni Islamic theology, are the Injil and Tawrat co-eternal with God just like the Qur’an?

 

[Kouyate42]

Well, true, but the literature I’ve read (no personal experience with Islam) shows that Muslims are much more concerned with the outward appearance of things. For example, Muslims are required to pray 5x a day, however there’s no concern with whether a person “means” their prayer, just that they say the words. There’s a requirement that you pay the Zukat, but no requirement to otherwise care for the poor.

Wrong. Reciting the salat prayers is no different to a Catholic reciting the rosary. Each relies on repetition, but ultimately means nothing if it is treated as nothing more than repetition. Salat teaches discipline, thankfullness to Allah and obedience. The prayers themselves have great meaning, both generally but also to the individual Muslim themselves and their own faith.

well, it’s an orthopraxy, and again, while you might be living the rules of Islam, it does not follow that a person is doing so for Allah so much as to avoid peer pressure or out of fear. This is the fundemental difference – Christians live for Jesus, muslims follow a bunch of practices, and as long as you follow the form of the religion, it’s good. So when you say switch it off, well, you don’t switch off the rules, but it’s not necessarily because you believe anything about Allah, nor that you want to please Allah. Allah might not even be in your thoughts as you recite the prayers. While some Christians do this, we don’t base our view of whether or not a person is Christian according to whether or not they went to church or didn’t eat meat on Friday or gave to the church. For us, it’s faith, and without that you can act the part all you want, but it does no good. It’s the difference between an actor pretending to be a doctor and a doctor. They can both walk down the hallways and use medical terms, but only one is real.

Doing something like wearing hijab or praying salah is meaningless without having to heart the reasons for doing so. You must do all things for the sake of Allah, and not just for outward show. Otherwise it is hypocrisy of the highest standard. This goes for every aspect of Islam, as doing all of these practices shows obedience to Allah.

For example, the hijab isn’t just about wearing a piece of cloth round your head. It’s about modesty in its entirety, from the clothes you wear to the way you act in public and in private. All of this is commanded by Allah, but seems to get reduced down to the physical headscarf issue itself by those who understand little.

for a Muslim, faith follows into practice. Physical things are done for profoundly spiritual reasons.

 

[Kouyate42]

Apart from the Qur’an, what evidence do we have to believe this claim?
What exactly is the point of celebrating agreement on the divine origin of texts other than the Qur’an when those works are supposedly now teaching errors that have sendt billions to eternal damnation?

And I’ve seen a quote from a Bahá’í who was accusing Muslims of corrupting their Scripture to cover up that a new prophet would come after Muhammad. How would you respond?

But why should we accept the Islamic claim that Jesus and Moses brought us books in the same manner as Muhammad did? No one has ever found a “Gospel of Jesus dictated by the Archangel Gabriel” or a “Torah of Moses dictated by the Archangel Gabriel”. And in Sunni Islamic theology, are the Injil and Tawrat co-eternal with God just like the Qur’an?

I’ll have to answer these points in the morning after fajr prayers as it’s 2am now and I’m very tired.

 

[meltzerboy]

Islam is the fastest growing religion because:

• Emphasis is placed in the Islamic community to have as many children as possible. While Muslims are having 4-6 children with multiple wives, the half of the rest of the world are having 2 kids per family while the other half are killing them with abortions.

• It’s much easier to follow a religion that promises carnal pleasures in the afterlife and following the simple belief of god being one person rather than the idea of one God of three person, the second person of the tri-une God has two natures divine/human. Which would be easier to believe?

I’m not sure about the current statistics whether the Catholic Church is still the largest religion in the world…

God bless,

Does Islam, including all the divisions, really promise carnal pleasures in the afterlife? I’ve heard that many times but have never confirmed it. At least Islam promises an afterlife, compared to Judaism, which for the most part does believe in an afterlife, but doesn’t really focus on it. Maybe that’s why Judaism is probably the slowest growing religion. But who’s counting?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Again, you base all your assertions as to God’ nature/personality upon a flawed text. Ditto this for the Jews.
You have to understand that I do not accept the Gospel in its present form to be the original Gospel preached by any of the prophets.

** Because as I said before, the Christian Bible has been corrupted. There is evidence in the Bible that says Jesus is NOT God but a mere prophet. These passages/verses are quite clearly backed up with Qur’an verses which state the same thing.
**

Neither Judaism nor Islam accept Jesus as God. But according to Allah, both Jews and Christians have corrupted their scriptures to their own human whims and desires. In the case of Christianity, this has meant Jesus has become God himself and not just the prophet he is.

Please list these Bible passages.

 

[Augustine3]

Ehelen ya Augustine3, tsharrifnaa. Shou akhbaarak? (Aslé mish bi Libnén, bes ana déris lughtak il-jemiilé min arba`t sniin.)

Back to our regularly scheduled programming…

Nahna elna elsharref habib albi!!

 

[rinnie]

**How is Islam the fastest growing religion? What do people see in Islam that attracts them more then Christianity? Are they now the worlds biggest religion and bigger than the Catholic Church?

God Bless**

Because many of them have no choice. And until they have the true teachings of the CC revealed to them. they do not know any better.

But someday they will convert because many of them are indeed Children of God also. And when they hear his voice they shall come.

 

[Augustine3]

Does Islam, including all the divisions, really promise carnal pleasures in the afterlife? I’ve heard that many times but have never confirmed it. At least Islam promises an afterlife, compared to Judaism, which for the most part does believe in an afterlife, but doesn’t really focus on it. Maybe that’s why Judaism is probably the slowest growing religion. But who’s counting?

Yes majority of them do believe in sensual pleasures in the afterlife they call el-janah (paradise). It’s not just sexual pleasure with multiple women, they also will have never ending fruit sweet has honey, the finest wine to drink (that does not make them drunk) and the most comfortable couches etc.

Can I ask you a question? If you don’t believe in the afterlife why do you choose to serve God? What’s the difference if you sin or not?

 

[rinnie]

Coming at this from the other side, as someone who wishes to practice Islam fully, you have to understand that from the Islamic point of view, what the religion of Islam teaches is NOT new, but in fact the natural, first religion and the true religion of Adam, Eve, Abraham, Moses, Lot and Jesus as well as the Arabic prophets including the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw). Islam actually accepts the Torah and Gospels to be valid revelations from God, albeit corrupted ones. Qur’an is the final revelation of these, not the only revelation.

If Islam isn’t new, then why is it Muhammad started it long after the CC? Why is it Muhammad was trying to teach it to Catholic Monks and they made fun of him, because he was contradicitng himself left and right?

Why is it that it was then that he became angry and began his own faith?

By the way Islam was founded 600 years AFTER Christianity. Now if it was the first Religion after adam and eve how was it founded 600 years after Christianity? Could you explain that? Thanks.

 

[Augustine3]

Because as I said before, the Christian Bible has been corrupted. There is evidence in the Bible that says Jesus is NOT God but a mere prophet. These passages/verses are quite clearly backed up with Qur’an verses which state the same thing.

So your incorrect interpretation of the bible and false Quranic teachings that are not been proven to be inspired is evidence the Bible is corrupt? Try again because that is just ridiculous.

Kouyate what’s your story you keep changing your mind about which religion you want to follow. Your actions prove your posts are unreliable.

God bless,

 

[meltzerboy]

Yes majority of them do believe in sensual pleasures in the afterlife they call el-janah (paradise). It’s not just sexual pleasure with multiple women, they also will have never ending fruit sweet has honey, the finest wine to drink (that does not make them drunk) and the most comfortable couches etc.

Can I ask you a question? If you don’t believe in the afterlife why do you choose to serve God? What’s the difference if you sin or not?

Interesting…comfortable couches: it’s worth it for that alone!

My answer is that virtue is its own reward: it betters oneself, others, and the world. Similar to the Quaker philosophy, I think. I do believe in an afterlife but that’s not the main focus of Judaism.

 

[rinnie]

Coming at this from the other side, as someone who wishes to practice Islam fully, you have to understand that from the Islamic point of view, what the religion of Islam teaches is NOT new, but in fact the natural, first religion and the true religion of Adam, Eve, Abraham, Moses, Lot and Jesus as well as the Arabic prophets including the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw). Islam actually accepts the Torah and Gospels to be valid revelations from God, albeit corrupted ones. Qur’an is the final revelation of these, not the only revelation.

This also interests me, if Islam is the True Religion of Jesus then why did Jesus tell us that he would be the last. Why did he say that there would be no new revelation. that you would see him comming back through the clouds the same way as he went back to heaven?

Why did the O.T. give us thousands of claims to Jesus comming but the O.T. never mentioned Muhammad. And why did the N.T. tell us to say away from false teacher claiming to be prophets? And to stay away from false teachings and to stick to the teachings of the early Fathers of the Church.

They tell us there is no one but Christ. Also curious what do you feel that Christ did not do that Muhammad could do for us??

 

[Wandile]

Again, you base all your assertions as to God’ nature/personality upon a flawed text. Ditto this for the Jews.
You have to understand that I do not accept the Gospel in its present form to be the original Gospel preached by any of the prophets.

You’re free to believe that.

Because as I said before, the Christian Bible has been corrupted. There is evidence in the Bible that says Jesus is NOT God but a mere prophet. These passages/verses are quite clearly backed up with Qur’an verses which state the same thing.

These are huge accusations to make. Can you back them up?

1- Any proof of biblical corruption amounting to the doctrines of Trinity and Jesus as Son of God or any corruption at all??

2- please cite the verses indicating that Jesus was not divine

Neither Judaism nor Islam accept Jesus as God. But according to Allah, both Jews and Christians have corrupted their scriptures to their own human whims and desires. In the case of Christianity, this has meant Jesus has become God himself and not just the prophet he is.

Ok… but this is circular reasoning

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

And I’ve seen a quote from a Bahá’í who was accusing Muslims of corrupting their Scripture to cover up that a new prophet would come after Muhammad. How would you respond?

It sounds as if you have got the wrong end of the stick on this one. Bahais do not say that the Quran is corrupted, they say just the opposite,

“In regard to your question concerning the authenticity of the Qur’án. I have referred it to the Guardian for his opinion. He thinks that** the Qur’án is, notwithstanding the opinion of certain historians, quite authentic**, and that consequently it should be considered in its entirety by every faithful and loyal believer as the sacred scriptures of the Muhammadan Revelation.”
(From a letter dated July 6, 1934 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi (great-grandson of the founder, and designated Guardian of the Bahai Faith)

The evidence since 1934 supports the substantial authenticity of the Qur’an. There was for example a very very early manuscript found under the eaves of a mosque in Yemen, which does not differ enormously from later versions. There were early texts with slight variants, documented by Jeffrey in his “materials for the history of the Quran” but they are of the order of synonymous words, or whether a fa or a wa (two forms of “and”) is used. One of the short surahs appears in a very-short, a longer, and an extra long version in different manuscripts, but the most reasonable explanation for this is that it was revealed early in Muhammad’s life, and it raised questions which were answered by another revelation, and then elaborated again later. Ali’s version has the longest text, which is the one used in today’s Qurans. That figures, because Ali was with Muhammad until the end of his life. The shorter versions would be those remembered and recorded by someone who was with Muhammad in Mecca, and missed out on the later elaborations of the text. So the variant gives us more, not less, confidence in the substantial accuracy of the text.

Where Bahais do differ from traditional Islamic belief, is that while Islamic scholars have generally taught that the Bible has been corrupted, based on a verse in the Quran, Baha’u’llah (founder of the Bahai Faith) said that the verse does **not **mean that the words of the Biblical text have been corrupted, it means the message has been corrupted by the interpretations of the Islamic scholars.

Baha’u’llah’s explanation is:

… by “perverting” the text is not meant that which these foolish and abject souls have fancied, even as some maintain that Jewish and Christian divines have effaced from the Book such verses as extol and magnify the countenance of Muhammad, and instead thereof have inserted the contrary. How utterly vain and false are these words! Can a man who believes in a book, and deems it to be inspired by God, mutilate it? Moreover, the Pentateuch had been spread over the surface of the earth, and was not confined to Mecca and Medina, so that they could privily corrupt and pervert its text. Nay, rather, by corruption of the text is meant that in which all Muslim divines are engaged today, that is the interpretation of God’s holy Book in accordance with their idle imaginings and vain desires. And as the Jews, in the time of Muhammad, interpreted those verses of the Pentateuch, that referred to His Manifestation, 87 after their own fancy, and refused to be satisfied with His holy utterance, the charge of “perverting” the text was therefore pronounced against them. Likewise, it is clear, how in this day, the people of the Qur’an have perverted the text of God’s holy Book, concerning the signs of the expected Manifestation, and interpreted it according to their inclination and desires.

In yet another instance, He saith: “A part of them heard the Word of God, and then, after they had understood it, distorted it, and knew that they did so.”[Q 2:75] This verse, too, indicates that the meaning of the Word of God hath been perverted, not that the actual words have been effaced.
(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 86)

It sounds to me as if you’ve heard part of a conversation between a Muslim (arguing that the Quran verse shows the Bible is corrupted, to remove prophecies of the coming of Muhammad) and a Bahai (arguing the Quran verse doesn’t mean that the Bible text was changed).

Bahais do not however believe that the Bible is word for word authentic: the historical evidence doesn’t support that.

 

[manualman]

Indonesia has a relatively large Catholic minority population (something like 9% of the population) and has many mosques and churches side-by-side.

Iran also affords legal protection and representation of Jews and Christians as being ‘People of the Book’. Iran has also some Jewish and Christian politicians and senior government members.

Azerbaijan also has a significant population of both Jews and Christians, and its move towards secularism ensures that anti-Semitic and anti-Christian attacks rarely happen. There are Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic and other Christian churches in this country.

Egypt has a long history of peaceful Coptic Christianity which largely existed without problem until recently.

Lebanon also has a largely peaceful existence between Muslims and Christians/Jewish people. Politically power is equal between the Islamic and Christian population and Christians hold major power including in the Army.

Syria has also a significant Syriac Christian Church, and given that there is no religious restriction in this country, Christianity has continued to survive peacefully there, present events not withstanding. Possibly the one restrition is that the President of Syria must be a Muslim as per the Syrian constitution.

In Syria in particular, there are Christian/Catholic schools, and Christian Syrians are given the day off to attend church, even though Sunday is a working day in Syrian culture.

Thanks for your response and charitable patience. Threads like this get heated when they take on tones of “Of course you’re wrong and I’m right” and you’ve done a good job of sticking up for your convictions without belligerency. But I do have some quibbles.

Indonesia is hardly a safe place to be a christian. I had Indonesian friends in college including some converts to christianity from Islam. They were VERY concerned about having to go back after college, including two who faced the very real possibility of being killed by their own family members if they found out about the conversion to christianity. Add in the atrocious treatment of the christian East Timorese by their largely muslim neighbors in recent years, I’m not sure how you place Indonesia on the list of places of harmony between christians and muslims. Maybe grading on a curve compared to Saudi Arabia it’s good, but it’s hardly Milwaukee, is it?

Iran, you have to be kidding. They are in the paper all the time for imprisoning and threatening to execute people ‘caught’ preaching christianity.

Azerbaijan I know nothing about and will look into, thanks.

Egypt was dominated by secular dictators for decades who used their power to suppress all threats against them. Religious groups were ALL considered potetial threats, so they were marginalized as a matter of government policy. Now that the dictators are gone, aren’t we seeing the true character of the people there? Seems like an extermination in progress to me, not an example of how divergent beliefs can live side by side in peace.

Lebanon is one of the most war torn places on earth! There seems to be peace only insofar as each side has their armed groups staking out turf and people have learned where they can safely go and where they can’t. But maybe I’m too far removed to understand.

Syria has been dominated by fairly secular rulers for a long time. It remains to be seen how christians will be treated once the ‘Arab Spring’ throws off that secular leaning authority. I hopy you’re right, but based on the Egypt experience, I worry you aren’t.

I hope the Azerbaijan example pans out because if the others are the pinnacle of Islamic peace and tolerance, I’m pretty scared of it.

Too much of my inside view of Islamic life comes from outside sources. I enjoyed the novel Kite Runner about life in 80’s Afghanistan by someone who lived it, but most of my other reading is by outsiders. Would you care to recommend some reading that you believe would give me a more accurate picture of what life is like in an Islamic society and how that society actually treats non-muslims?

Thanks.

 

[Kouyate42]

This also interests me, if Islam is the True Religion of Jesus then why did Jesus tell us that he would be the last. Why did he say that there would be no new revelation. that you would see him comming back through the clouds the same way as he went back to heaven?

Actually, according to the Qur’an, he stated quite clearly that he was both merely human and that he was not the last of the prophets, but that there was one to come.v

I suggest you read this: islamreligion.com/articles/1576/

Why did the O.T. give us thousands of claims to Jesus comming but the O.T. never mentioned Muhammad. And why did the N.T. tell us to say away from false teacher claiming to be prophets? And to stay away from false teachings and to stick to the teachings of the early Fathers of the Church.

This is wrong. The Aramaic Bible actually DOES mention Muhammad’s (pbuh) coming. Similarly, the Gospel of John also predicts his coming.

Article source: answering-christianity.com/prediction.htm

They tell us there is no one but Christ. Also curious what do you feel that Christ did not do that Muhammad could do for us??

Actually, I believe that only God can do anything for me. All the prophets were sent only to warn people and bring them back to the One they should fear and worship alone. In Muhammad (pbuh) there is the best example of what true worship of God is and of a true believer. But I neither worship either 'Isa nor Muhammad (peace be upon them).

If I want something, or wish to ask something, I ask God and God alone.

 

[Kouyate42]

You’re free to believe that.

Yippee!

These are huge accusations to make. Can you back them up?

1- Any proof of biblical corruption amounting to the doctrines of Trinity and Jesus as Son of God or any corruption at all??

2- please cite the verses indicating that Jesus was not divine

I put an article in my last post on the Islamic argument for the non-divinity of Christ and for the story of who the real Jesus is. .

Ok… but this is circular reasoning

I could make an argument purely from the Bible if I so wished.