Question on Islam.

[Trebor135]

Think of the Qur’an as the map to guide us through the journey of life and think of the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as the legend by which to correctly read this map.

Just as we should not be foolish enough to want to read a map without referring to it’s accompanying legend, then only a fool will attempt to interpret the Qur’an in a way which is different than how the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself understood the Qur’an… and therefore, we need to refer to the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in order to obtain the most accurate interpretation possible of the Qur’an.

And so, with regard to the question of how Muslim men should treat their wives (pay particular attention to the highlighted part), here is the Final Sermon of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh);

Muhammad spends just five sentences on relations between men and women in the address you quote–his words can hardly be said to constitute the “legend” of the Sunnah which clarifies the “map” of the Qur’an.

Muhammad informs his audience, “If they [women] abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness.” He encourages the men listening, “Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers,” adding, “And it is your right that they do not
make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.”

Muhammad never prescribes what should be done if the women fail to “abide by [the men’s] right”, or if the women “make friends with any one of whom [the men] do not approve”, or if the women are seen to “be unchaste” by the men. (Are they allowed to talk to male strangers at the market, cooperate with them in a work setting, converse with them over a cup of tea…? Or are women simply expected to avoid adultery and other sexual immorality with men–an eminently reasonable request?)

 

[hamba2han]

Since the subject of the age of Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has once again cropped up, here is a reminder:

On more than one occasion when people were in dire need of water, the blessing of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saved them. In the sixth year after the he migrated from Mecca to Medina, Muhammad went to Mecca for pilgrimage. In the long journey through the desert, people ran out of all water, only the Prophet was left with a vessel with which he performed ablution for prayers. He put his hand in vessel, water began flowing from between his fingers. Jabir bin Abdullah, who witnessed the miracle, says of the fifteen hundred men, ‘We drank it and made ablution.’ This miracle has been transmitted with an unbroken chain of reliable scholars (mutawatir hadith).

The sprouting of water from human fingers is similar to Prophet Moses’ (pbuh) miracle of producing water from a rock and even more so to the miracle of Prophet Elijah (pbuh) spouting water from his fingers as described in Jewish scriptures.

And from Wikipedia:

Mutawatir (Arabic: متواتر) is an Arabic word meaning “consecutive.” It is often used as an Islamic term within the science of hadith. A hadith is said to be mutawatir if it was reported by a significant number of narrators at each chain in the narration, and therefore through multiple chains of narration leading back to Muhammad. This provides confirmation that the hadith is sahih to a level beyond reasonable doubt, as it is beyond historical possibility that narrators could have conspired to forge a narration. Hadiths can be mutawatir in both actual text and meaning.

In contrast, an ahaad hadith is a narration which at some point in the chain has only a single narrator.

The point here is that for those who are continually harping on the age of A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), remember that what you are proclaiming as an undeniable fact is actually a hadith which has been recorded based on her recollection alone.

On the other hand, in the case of the miracle described above, it is recorded as a mutawatir hadith i.e. an authentic hadith which is exceptionally strong to “a level beyond reasonable doubt”.

And so, if indeed you do believe the veracity of the hadith regarding A’ishah’s age at the time of her marriage, then there really is no reason at all why you should have any doubts whatsoever about the veracity of this mutawatir hadith describing the miracle of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) sprouting water from his fingers.

In short, if Christians are indeed insisting to see a miracle of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as “proof” that he is a true Prophet, then you have just been provided one.

And what this also means is that Christians and other non-Muslims cannot have it both ways here i.e. if they choose to believe the relatively weaker hadith concerning Aisha’s age at the time of her marriage, then they cannot at the same time turn around and say that they do not believe the mutawatir hadith describing the miracle of water sprouting from the fingers of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

 

[rinnie]

Since the subject of the age of Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has once again cropped up, here is a reminder:

On more than one occasion when people were in dire need of water, the blessing of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saved them. In the sixth year after the he migrated from Mecca to Medina, Muhammad went to Mecca for pilgrimage. In the long journey through the desert, people ran out of all water, only the Prophet was left with a vessel with which he performed ablution for prayers. He put his hand in vessel, water began flowing from between his fingers. Jabir bin Abdullah, who witnessed the miracle, says of the fifteen hundred men, ‘We drank it and made ablution.’ This miracle has been transmitted with an unbroken chain of reliable scholars (mutawatir hadith).

The sprouting of water from human fingers is similar to Prophet Moses’ (pbuh) miracle of producing water from a rock and even more so to the miracle of Prophet Elijah (pbuh) spouting water from his fingers as described in Jewish scriptures.

And from Wikipedia:

Mutawatir (Arabic: متواتر) is an Arabic word meaning “consecutive.” It is often used as an Islamic term within the science of hadith. A hadith is said to be mutawatir if it was reported by a significant number of narrators at each chain in the narration, and therefore through multiple chains of narration leading back to Muhammad. This provides confirmation that the hadith is sahih to a level beyond reasonable doubt, as it is beyond historical possibility that narrators could have conspired to forge a narration. Hadiths can be mutawatir in both actual text and meaning.

In contrast, an ahaad hadith is a narration which at some point in the chain has only a single narrator.

The point here is that for those who are continually harping on the age of A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), remember that what you are proclaiming as an undeniable fact is actually a hadith which has been recorded based on her recollection alone.

On the other hand, in the case of the miracle described above, it is recorded as a mutawatir hadith i.e. an authentic hadith which is exceptionally strong to “a level beyond reasonable doubt”.

And so, if indeed you do believe the veracity of the hadith regarding A’ishah’s age at the time of her marriage, then there really is no reason at all why you should have any doubts whatsoever about the veracity of this mutawatir hadith describing the miracle of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) sprouting water from his fingers.

In short, if Christians are indeed insisting to see a miracle of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as “proof” that he is a true Prophet, then you have just been provided one.

And what this also means is that Christians and other non-Muslims cannot have it both ways here i.e. if they choose to believe the relatively weaker hadith concerning Aisha’s age at the time of her marriage, then they cannot at the same time turn around and say that they do not believe the mutawatir hadith describing the miracle of water sprouting from the fingers of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

I can’t get past him having sex with a nine year old. And as far as miracles does scripture not say.

Matt 7:23 It is not everyone who says to me Lord Lord who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. When the day comes MANY will say to me Lord Lord did I not prophesy in your name, Drive out demons in your name WORK MIRACLES in your name. Then I shall tell them to thier faces. I have NEVER known you away from me evil doers.

Now would a 60 year old Man taking a child of 6 to be his wife and having sex with a 9 year old be doing the will of the Father in heaven. Please don’t tell me you truly believe having sex with a 9 year old is Gods will. I am sorry. I can’t believe anyone would accept this as the will of God the Almighty.

 

[rinnie]

Many countries have accepted Islam without a single sword or gun being used. Indonesia, China (yes, China has native Muslims) and Malaysia all did this.

Muhammad (saw) was merely defending himself against attack from pagan tribes who were intent on killing both him and the Muslim people who were following him. Islam only permits fighting in self-defence, and under strict rules.

Really!

I will instill terror into the hearts of the Infidels, strike their heads then, and strke off from them every fingertip (Koran 8:12)

How about the slaughter of Jewish tribes or individuals who refused to support Muhammad.

To name a few the Jewsih tribes of BlanuN-Nadir in AD 626. the Jews of Banu Qurayzain A.D. 627 Bamu Sa’k in A.D. 628.

The list goes on and on…

How about the definitive biography of Muhammad written by one of his followers only a few decades after his death quotes him as saying Kill any Jew that falls into your power.

I am sorry this is not something that a Prophet of the Lord would ever say. All of this anger and hate did not come from God. Not ever.

 

[Kouyate42]

Another problem, who can say what the truth is, Who has authority? Which scholar do you pick?

Is this like the thousands of varying different Christian interpretations of Scripture.

And no, you can’t argue ‘well the Church is the right interpretation of Scripture’ otherwise the Orthodox Church wouldn’t exist. And the whole world would be Catholic.

Here is another disturbing thing. How does the scholars explain this one.

In both Judaism and Christianity heaven is the pure joy of being in God’s presence.

In Islam it comes from sensual pleasures, food, drink. sex. Men in heaven are awarded with 72 ever young virgin wives.

The also receive 28 beardless young boys. Now that is messed up!!

Is it not the adversary who has always used the lures of the flesh to seduce men away from God into sin?:yup:

There is also joy in Allah’s presence in Jannah. And yes, there will be purely sensual pleasures, but there are also deeper spiritual meanings to these things.

Plus, women in Jannah have the pleasure of being beautiful queens, dressed in fine robes and jewellery, drinking and eating from gold cups and plates. They will be far more beautiful than the companions of the men.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Let’s work backwards-

-Me quoting you [post 69] in response to
-you quoting me [post 68] in respone to
-me quoting you [post 66] in response to
-you quoting me [post 63] in response to
-me quoting **someone not you **[post 61] in response to
-**someone not you’s **post [post 59]

And if you reread my comment in post 61 you’ll see I’m not calling for us not to continue to question her false claims or even arguing against your point quoted in someone not you’s post [post 59]; I’m calling on us to do so in a polite manner. A manner which is completely missing in someone not you’s comment in post 59. And all of this is how I came to the “a” or “b” conclusions in post 69.

Let’s just drop it, OK? There was a misunderstanding.

 

[hamba2han]

Muhammad spends just five sentences on relations between men and women in the address you quote–his words can hardly be said to constitute the “legend” of the Sunnah which clarifies the “map” of the Qur’an.

Muhammad informs his audience, “If they [women] abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness.” He encourages the men listening, “Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers,” adding, “And it is your right that they do not
make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.”

Muhammad never prescribes what should be done if the women fail to “abide by [the men’s] right”, or if the women “make friends with any one of whom [the men] do not approve”, or if the women are seen to “be unchaste” by the men. (Are they allowed to talk to male strangers at the market, cooperate with them in a work setting, converse with them over a cup of tea…? Or are women simply expected to avoid adultery and other sexual immorality with men–an eminently reasonable request?)

There are actually a number of ahadith which shows how the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) always enjoined the believers to be kind and gentle in their treatment of women, among them are the following:

Narrated Mu’awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) and asked him: “What do you say (command) about our wives?” He replied: ** “Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.”** (Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 11, Number 2139)

"The best of you is one who is best towards his family and I am best towards the family". (At-Tirmithy)

"None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully". (At-Tirmithy).

 

[Trebor135]

There are actually a number of ahadith which shows how the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) always enjoined the believers to be kind and gentle in their treatment of women, among them are the following:

Narrated Mu’awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) and asked him: “What do you say (command) about our wives?” He replied: ** “Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.”** (Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 11, Number 2139)

"The best of you is one who is best towards his family and I am best towards the family". (At-Tirmithy)

"None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully". (At-Tirmithy).

The passages you cite demonstrate that Muhammad encouraged good treatment of women as a general rule; these Ahadith do not cover what should be done to women when they do things, real or imagined, that are sinful or displeasing in the eyes of men.

Let’s look at passages where Muhammad discusses how to settle inter-gender and inter-spouse conflict.

 

[Trebor135]

There is also joy in Allah’s presence in Jannah. And yes, there will be purely sensual pleasures, but there are also deeper spiritual meanings to these things.

Plus, women in Jannah have the pleasure of being beautiful queens, dressed in fine robes and jewellery, drinking and eating from gold cups and plates. They will be far more beautiful than the companions of the men.

Isn’t it only fair that girls be given handsome men and youth to keep them sexually fulfilled too, though?

I should go say a decade of the rosary to get my mind off such things–according to Islam and Christianity they would all be gravely sinful if we were talking about this earthly life.

 

[hamba2han]

I can’t get past him having sex with a nine year old. And as far as miracles does scripture not say.

Matt 7:23 It is not everyone who says to me Lord Lord who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. When the day comes MANY will say to me Lord Lord did I not prophesy in your name, Drive out demons in your name WORK MIRACLES in your name. Then I shall tell them to thier faces. I have NEVER known you away from me evil doers.

Now would a 60 year old Man taking a child of 6 to be his wife and having sex with a 9 year old be doing the will of the Father in heaven. Please don’t tell me you truly believe having sex with a 9 year old is Gods will. I am sorry. I can’t believe anyone would accept this as the will of God the Almighty.

Funny that you should mention the passage in Matthew 7.

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The people who are talking to Jesus (pbuh) in this Biblical passage i.e. the “evildoers”, are calling him ‘Lord, Lord’… and so they are not likely to be Muslims because Muslims simply do not call Jesus ‘Lord’ and drive out demons in HIS name.

Also, an important point that should not be missed here is that Jesus Christ (pbuh) is saying that those who will enter heaven are “only the one who does the will of my Father”.

There is an Arabic word to describe submitting oneself to the will of God Almighty… and that word is ‘Islam’.

And in Arabic, someone who does Islam is called a ‘mu-Islam’ → Muslim.

Jesus Christ (pbuh) is saying in Matthew 7:21 that only true Muslims will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Trebor135]

Funny that you should mention the passage in Matthew 7.

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The people who are talking to Jesus (pbuh) in this Biblical passage i.e. the “evildoers”, are calling him ‘Lord, Lord’… and so they are not likely to be Muslims because Muslims simply do not call Jesus ‘Lord’ and drive out demons in HIS name.

Also, an important point that should not be missed here is that Jesus Christ (pbuh) is saying that those who will enter heaven are “only the one who does the will of my Father”.

There is an Arabic word to describe submitting oneself to the will of God Almighty… and that word is ‘Islam’.

And in Arabic, someone who does Islam is called a ‘mu-Islam’ → Muslim.

Jesus Christ (pbuh) is saying in Matthew 7:21 that only true Muslims will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

حقا شاطر جدا! (Very clever indeed!)

But are Muslims renowned for prophesying, exorcising demons, and working miracles?

And if Jesus said and did things in the New Testament which indicate that he considered himself to be divine, are those who persist in viewing Christ as solely a human prophet truly “doing the will of [his] Father”?

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Yes, the prophet Muhammad who when he was about 60 married a 6 year old girl and consummating his marriage with her when she was 9.

Don’t tell me thats respecting women and CHILDREN!!

How about when he said when a man calls on his wife to satisfy his desire let her come to him though she is occupied at the oven.

Yeah Right!!

For a 60 year old man to have sex with a nine year old baby will get your jail time.

How are you going to feel when your six year old daughter is given to a 60 year old man and he has sex with her at 9. Please don’t tell me you are okay with this.

And please don’t tell me you believe this was something a true Prophet of God would teach.

I agree with you too rinnie. And I feel that anybody who follows Mohammad is actually saying that this behavior is okay.

Anyone who thinks an old man having sex with a child is okay needs mental help, ASAP!

 

[Augustine3]

Pray tell how this- “She’s even showed her interest in becoming a Catholic now she considering reverting back to Islam. How can we trust her answers?” is an attempt to refute her false claims. It is an uncharitable statement made out of frustration [which is understandable, I’ve unfortunately made some myself in other threads] and an attack on her character [which is neither something we should be doing as Catholics or as guests on the CA forums].

Then I guess by your standard St Paul was also uncharitable.

“O stupid Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? I want to learn only this from you: did you receive the Spirit from works of the law, or from faith in what you heard? Are you so stupid? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?” – Galatians 3:1-2

With all respect my friend, there is a fine line between uncharitable and apologetical statements.

God bless,

 

[perro_sarnoso]

**How is Islam the fastest growing religion? What do people see in Islam that attracts them more then Christianity? Are they now the worlds biggest religion and bigger than the Catholic Church?

God Bless**

Because Catholicism is too complicated for their minds.

It is incomprehensible to them that God would become flesh…yet…God is a book which they will kill and die for.

Paper is more worthy of Godship…not flesh.

God is not powerful enough to bring about sinless flesh but…He is able to bring about sinless paper.

I could go on and on. But I won’t.

Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

 

[Armyvet007]

Then I guess by your standard St Paul was also uncharitable.

“O stupid Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? I want to learn only this from you: did you receive the Spirit from works of the law, or from faith in what you heard? Are you so stupid? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?” – Galatians 3:1-2

With all respect my friend, there is a fine line between uncharitable and apologetical statements.

God bless,

Differences between your statment and St. Paul’s-
-He was directly addressing his target, not making a snide remark to others
-His comment wasn’t an insult on his target’s character “nah nah, you’re stupid”], but a comment on their actions [stop acting foolish/ignorant]

• His comment actually served a purpose to further the conversation, yours merely demonstrates pettiness

There is a fine line, you crossed it.

 

[Augustine3]

Differences between your statment and St. Paul’s-
-He was directly addressing his target, not making a snide remark to others
-His comment wasn’t an insult on his target’s character “nah nah, you’re stupid”], but a comment on their actions [stop acting foolish/ignorant]

• His comment actually served a purpose to further the conversation, yours merely demonstrates pettiness

There is a fine line, you crossed it.

There’s nothing snide about what I said, that is merely your interpretation. I was demonstrating Kou’s answers are unreliable and cannot represent Islam’s position because she keeps on changing her mind about which religion she wishes to follow. My comment just like St Paul’s was concerning her actions.

It’s best we both show a little charity by ending this dialogue rather than spend the rest of our time arguing…

God bless you,

 

[rinnie]

Is this like the thousands of varying different Christian interpretations of Scripture.

And no, you can’t argue ‘well the Church is the right interpretation of Scripture’ otherwise the Orthodox Church wouldn’t exist. And the whole world would be Catholic.

There is also joy in Allah’s presence in Jannah. And yes, there will be purely sensual pleasures, but there are also deeper spiritual meanings to these things.

Plus, women in Jannah have the pleasure of being beautiful queens, dressed in fine robes and jewellery, drinking and eating from gold cups and plates. They will be far more beautiful than the companions of the men.

Oh Beauty queens are you kidding me! You are joking now right. With this beauty queens, sensual pleasure of the flesh, and eating and drinking in gold cups and plates.

You can’t be really buying into this now.

And there is only One version of the bible in the Catholic Church. Thats it ONE. Why can’t you say the same.

If you believe in One God as you claim how could he lead you into various versions?

Funny how you cannot accept the Trinity, yet the Trinity is One God and the Church accepts the One true God in the Trinity, and the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all line up with scripture in the CC. How do you explain that?

People who do not accept the Catholic Church in scripture well, lets just say the bible itself explains that. Read it!

 

[Trebor135]

Since the subject of the age of Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has once again cropped up,

How old was the girl when Muhammad married her? How about when they consumated the marriage?

here is a reminder:

On more than one occasion when people were in dire need of water, the blessing of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saved them. In the sixth year after the he migrated from Mecca to Medina, Muhammad went to Mecca for pilgrimage. In the long journey through the desert, people ran out of all water, only the Prophet was left with a vessel with which he performed ablution for prayers. He put his hand in vessel, water began flowing from between his fingers. Jabir bin Abdullah, who witnessed the miracle, says of the fifteen hundred men, ‘We drank it and made ablution.’ This miracle has been transmitted with an unbroken chain of reliable scholars (mutawatir hadith).

The sprouting of water from human fingers is similar to Prophet Moses’ (pbuh) miracle of producing water from a rock and even more so to the miracle of Prophet Elijah (pbuh) spouting water from his fingers as described in Jewish scriptures.

I for one refuse to follow you down this rabbit trail.

If the Hadith claiming that the girl was six when she was wed and nine when the marriage was consumated is fairly weak, let us discard it for the sake of argument. Please present a very strong Hadith showing at what ages these things took place in the life of A’isha.

 

[rinnie]

Is this like the thousands of varying different Christian interpretations of Scripture.

And no, you can’t argue ‘well the Church is the right interpretation of Scripture’ otherwise the Orthodox Church wouldn’t exist. And the whole world would be Catholic.

There is also joy in Allah’s presence in Jannah. And yes, there will be purely sensual pleasures, but there are also deeper spiritual meanings to these things.

Plus, women in Jannah have the pleasure of being beautiful queens, dressed in fine robes and jewellery, drinking and eating from gold cups and plates. They will be far more beautiful than the companions of the men.

By the way a heads up for you. Many People do not know this BUT if you are baptised in the name of the Trinity you are part of the Catholic Church rather you see it or not!!

So to comment on your statement. Yes the Orthodox are indeed Catholic.

 

[Trebor135]

Oh Beauty queens are you kidding me! You are joking now right. With this beauty queens, sensual pleasure of the flesh, and eating and drinking in gold cups and plates.

You can’t be really buying into this now.

I struggle to understand how Muslims are able to consider activities gravely sinful on earth–promiscuity, extramarital sex, homosexuality, and perhaps gluttony–but completely holy in paradise. Truly baffling.

And there is only One version of the bible in the Catholic Church. Thats it ONE. Why can’t you say the same.

Kouyate42 was saying that Christians differ on their theology, not their Scripture.

If you believe in One God as you claim how could he lead you into various versions?

Funny how you cannot accept the Trinity, yet the Trinity is One God and the Church accepts the One true God in the Trinity, and the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all line up with scripture in the CC. How do you explain that?

People who do not accept the Catholic Church in scripture well, lets just say the bible itself explains that. Read it!

What do you mean? Kouyate42 would say that the Bible was thoroughly corrupted–without evidence–and any religion based on such a text would teach many errors.