Question on Purgatory, Answered!

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Wow.

Firstly, I’m pretty sure no one is “trying to overwhelm” you with a bunch of posts.

Secondly, what’s uncharitable about stating you are wrong because of your lack of agreement with a point of Catholic teaching?

There’s absolutely nothing uncharitable about saying someone is wrong.

The uncharity may reside in how that is presented.

But simply the fact that you’ve been told someone believes you are wrong is absolutely NOT UNCHARITABLE. Not even close.
Okay, point conceded. I’m certainly wrong often enough, but usually the Bible, the Confessions, those more firmly grounded in the Confessions, coupled with a properly formed conscience, informs me of my errors. Then I confess them and invite the Holy Spirit to remove them. All I can offer to prove my point are the posts directed at me in the end of Protestantism and this Purgatory Question, Answered! thread, but you already noted that the presentation of a rebuttal may be less than charitable, which is something I readily admit that I do, too. Why, I must be a sinner! I guess God’s grace’ll have to keep on working on me. 🙂
 
Good point. That’s actually why I deleted the above post.
:tiphat:
You’re pointed questions are very welcome indeed, just like Reuben J’s or anybody else’s, but if I’m under the impression that people are simply trying to wear me down or take me away from the faith that rescued me from Satan’s jaws not that long ago,
I think you need to understand the culture of a forum a little better.

Debate is an academic endeavor. It is not a personal attack on anyone, when someone refutes a point made by another.

When someone attacks your ideas, they are not attacking you.

That’s the nature of discourse on a forum.

(Of course, the above is all understood with this caveat: it is possible to present your arguments in a contentious and fractious manner. That shouldn’t happen.)

But, again, if the dialogue is academic and charitable, saying you are wrong is not the same thing as being uncharitable.
I will respond with the same tone I’ve been addressed with.
That’s typically my modus as well.
 
I agree with most of what you say here, Reuben J… CFW Walther and Martin Luther alike said that Confession should be for those who are willing to allow the Holy Spirit to transform them and their lives and not a revolving door for impenitent sinners. The Book Of Hebrews as well as the Pauline Epistles and even the very Gospels themselves ( not to mention the Books of the Old Testament) point to the necessity to not stubbornly resist grace as we are prone to do as humans, but when the Holy Spirit enters our hearts to joyfully allow the Holy Spirit to do His work. How we can avoid sin, well, I can’t say that that’s really possible. Walther’s Law and Gospel speaks of the impossibility of us in our human state ( untouched by grace) to avoid sin, or even to* want *to do so. he also goes on to speak of the necessity to hear the Law, that we might understand our utter filth before God before we can be comforted by the Gospel. Mixing Law and Gospel together is considered by our church to be an extremely serious error that can indeed *endanger *one’s salvation. Now, CFW Walther, while being the first President of our Synod ( and the first head of Concordia University in St. Louis) was himself not without sin. None of us are. When we are touched by grace, we have the Third Use of God’s Law, which is to serve as a guideline for the regenerate on how to best love God and serve our neighbor. The First Two Uses are #1: To restrain the reprobate with threats of punishment and #2: to show how utterly powerless we are to please God with outward observance without inward conversion. The fact that it does begin and end with Christ is a source of great consolation to us and our assurance of salvation is what gives us the hope to approach the Throne of Grace every day in prayer with praise, confession, contrition and petition. God is great to all of us.
I am trying to understand your post. It is not easy for me because of my unfamiliarity with your church’s doctrine.

If I understand it correctly, I can immediately see the different premise on where we stand on this topic. That may make it easier to understand why we arrive at our respective position.

I would see that there is no middle ground in your belief – either one is forgiven of his sin or one does not repent and therefore is not forgiven.

If that is the case, then it is just being unrealistic. There are thousands of Catholics who walk into that church entrance every Sunday, and many of them do not fall into the categories mentioned above. They are just ordinary kind of Catholic Joes, somewhere in between simply because it is hard to overcome the challenge of life. They sinned, honestly knowing it is wrong but often fall anyway. The sins they are confessing are often repetitive.

So that is life reality. Do they have the Holy Spirit? Yes. Do they receive grace? Yes. Can they avoid those sins? Yes. Will they commit it again? Maybe no or yes, depending on their circumstances. And if they do, they still have to confess it again and repent. It is ongoing.

In the midst of it all, it is obvious to see that somewhere the repentance has not been perfect, not because there is no Holy Spirit, but because of insufficient cooperation by the penitent or not being truly decisive in not wanting to do it again, life factor notwithstanding. Will God condemn him? Yes, if he turns away and never come back; no, if he repents.

I guess that is our differences.

God bless.

Rueben.
 
Okay, well, after taking a deep breath and having some Swiss Miss, let’s see if the Lord will lend some coherency to my passion. The Blood of Christ cleaned that stain of sin from my soul. I am made clean by Christ, by His Body and Blood, by no merit of my own, no work of my own. Jesus did all of that already. I can approach the Throne of Grace because Jesus enables me to do so.
So right now if you think about how much you hate the dog that yaps beneath your window at 4am every morning…and then you die (rhetorical situation, ok?)…tell me what happens to your soul when it goes before the Eternal Godhead?

Can it enter with that stain?
 
Okay, well, after taking a deep breath and having some Swiss Miss, let’s see if the Lord will lend some coherency to my passion. The Blood of Christ cleaned that stain of sin from my soul. I am made clean by Christ, by His Body and Blood, by no merit of my own, no work of my own. Jesus did all of that already. I can approach the Throne of Grace because Jesus enables me to do so.
The Catholic and Orthodox view is that “the Blood of Christ restores me, is restoring me, and will restore me totally. I am made fully human by Christ, by His Body and Blood, by no merit of my own, cooperating fully with Him by his Grace. Jesus did all that is necessary already. I can approach the Throne of Grace because Jesus enables me to do so. His Grace is so encompassing that even physical death can no longer separate those in His Body.”
 
:tiphat:

I think you need to understand the culture of a forum a little better.

Debate is an academic endeavor. It is not a personal attack on anyone, when someone refutes a point made by another.

When someone attacks your ideas, they are not attacking you.

That’s the nature of discourse on a forum.

(Of course, the above is all understood with this caveat: it is possible to present your arguments in a contentious and fractious manner. That shouldn’t happen.)

But, again, if the dialogue is academic and charitable, saying you are wrong is not the same thing as being uncharitable.

That’s typically my modus as well.
Correct in all point, thank you, PR. 🙂 As long as the dialogue is academic and charitable, I gladly and eager share what some might regard as insights and what others might shake their heads over. The tone of respect that I saw here in CA was what actually spurred me into signing up in the first place.
 
So right now if you think about how much you hate the dog that yaps beneath your window at 4am every morning…and then you die (rhetorical situation, ok?)…tell me what happens to your soul when it goes before the Eternal Godhead?

Can it enter with that stain?
Jesus took that stain away. I believe that the filthy garment that I wore was rinsed and washed clean at my baptism and that hearing the Word, taking the Sacraments and letting the Holy Spirit transform my heart, God the Father doesn’t record that sin and my name is still safely inscribed in the Book of Life.
 
Jesus took that stain away.
Yes. Until you sin again.

Surely you don’t believe that at baptism all your sins, past present and future are forgiven? You can be baptized as an infant, commit adultery as an adult, and go straight to heaven?

Really?

I’m pretty sure that’s not the Lutheran view–maybe another denomination. But not Lutheranism.
I believe that the filthy garment that I wore was rinsed and washed clean at my baptism and that hearing the Word, taking the Sacraments and letting the Holy Spirit transform my heart, God the Father doesn’t record that sin and my name is still safely inscribed in the Book of Life.
How can God the Father see you as clean when you are not? Isn’t that making God blind?
 
I am trying to understand your post. It is not easy for me because of my unfamiliarity with your church’s doctrine.

If I understand it correctly, I can immediately see the different premise on where we stand on this topic. That may make it easier to understand why we arrive at our respective position.

I would see that there is no middle ground in your belief – either one is forgiven of his sin or one does not repent and therefore is not forgiven.

If that is the case, then it is just being unrealistic. There are thousands of Catholics who walk into that church entrance every Sunday, and many of them do not fall into the categories mentioned above. They are just ordinary kind of Catholic Joes, somewhere in between simply because it is hard to overcome the challenge of life. They sinned, honestly knowing it is wrong but often fall anyway. The sins they are confessing are often repetitive.

So that is life reality. Do they have the Holy Spirit? Yes. Do they receive grace? Yes. Can they avoid those sins? Yes. Will they commit it again? Maybe no or yes, depending on their circumstances. And if they do, they still have to confess it again and repent. It is ongoing.

In the midst of it all, it is obvious to see that somewhere the repentance has not been perfect, not because there is no Holy Spirit, but because of insufficient cooperation by the penitent or not being truly decisive in not wanting to do it again, life factor notwithstanding. Will God condemn him? Yes, if he turns away and never come back; no, if he repents.

I guess that is our differences.

God bless.

Rueben.
:o If you’re interested, I can give you a link to my church’s position on this matter: lcms.org/faqs/doctrine#repentance I hope that provides you with some further understanding of the position of the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod and her members on this topic…
 
Yes. Until you sin again.

Surely you don’t believe that at baptism all your sins, past present and future are forgiven? You can be baptized as an infant, commit adultery as an adult, and go straight to heaven?

Really?

I’m pretty sure that’s not the Lutheran view–maybe another denomination. But not Lutheranism.

How can God the Father see you as clean when you are not? Isn’t that making God blind?
Nope. God doesn’t see the sin because there’s no sin to see. He put it away.lcms.org/faqs/doctrine#sin
 
LutheranScholar #133
Ah, if you deny the Roman Catholic Church, you deny Jesus, eh? At least, that’s what the Roman Catholic Church teaches ( hardly surprising for an institution seeking to regain some fictitious " monopoly" on salvation. Sorry, that polemic doesn’t work).
Since when has Jesus been afraid of a “polemic”? Polemic = involving dispute or controversy.

But denying His superlative founding of His own Church on St Peter, with His authority, as you now know, is merely indulging in a mirage.

BTW the “monopoly” on salvation is complete:
Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

So, It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle** “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body”** (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #846).
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].

Further, on *Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus *(literally, “outside the Church, there is no salvation”): Some people have wished to understand this saying in the most literal sense: that is, that the person who is not formally a practicing Catholic cannot be saved. The Church has condemned such an interpretation (cf. Denzinger-Schönmetzer, 3870-3873).
 
Doesn’t this render your salvation a legal technicality and make God unjust?
See, but that is the heart of the matter! It was God’s Justice that brought about the need for Jesus to come to us in the first place! The Lord satisfied God’s Justice on the Cross, for the sins of the whole world! It’s not just my salvation, it is our salvation! All of us who believe and call upon God’s Name ( although, to be sure, it is not our faith that saves us, but the finished work of Christ on the Cross, of which our faith makes us aware) benefit from this, even to our eternal salvation. That is the Gospel! The Law has been fulfilled! Say that you’re under sentence of death ( as we all were), but your solicitor stands and declares that he will die in your stead. Even more incredible, the Judge says, " that is acceptable." The man is led away and dies for you. He takes your sentence. Would that knowledge not spur you to act with deeper devotion to the needs of others? What if you discovered that in his will, he left you a kingdom? What if the Judge were God and the Solicitor was His Son? What if the Judge embraced you and showed you adoption papers that stipulated that you were an adopted child of this King? The Law is still in effect. The Gospel is the consolation that comes after ( the two Lutheran prerequisites for a good confession) contrition and faith. Who would declare God unjust? His Justice was satisfied by an incomparable Substitute.
 
How did God put away those sins that you are now sinless? Or free of sin?

And how can yo be sure you have repented enough for your sins?
He washed them with Jesus’ Blood and declared me innocent.
That was Luther’s dilemma. He kept confessing and he kept confessing. Then he read something out of the Book of Romans. He read that Jesus already did it all. He read that he was saved by grace through faith. Of course we’re meant to live a life of repentance, but repentance is geared toward the teaching of the Law. the Gospel gives us hope and consolation that our sins have been forgiven.
 
Since when has Jesus been afraid of a “polemic”? Polemic = involving dispute or controversy.

But denying His superlative founding of His own Church on St Peter, with His authority, as you now know, is merely indulging in a mirage.

BTW the “monopoly” on salvation is complete:
Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

So, It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle** “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body”** (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #846).
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].

Further, on *Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus *(literally, “outside the Church, there is no salvation”): Some people have wished to understand this saying in the most literal sense: that is, that the person who is not formally a practicing Catholic cannot be saved. The Church has condemned such an interpretation (cf. Denzinger-Schönmetzer, 3870-3873).
It is by grace through faith we have been saved, by God’s work, so no man may boast. Christ stands as the Head of the entire Christian Church, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox. We affirm the Three ancient Creeds and we proclaim the Gospel and have the Sacraments correctly distributed. To my knowledge, Jesus never had a problem with polemic… He actually used it once or twice to make some rather smug Pharisees squirm in their fine robes.
 
How did God put away those sins that you are now sinless? Or free of sin?

And how can yo be sure you have repented enough for your sins?
Again, the OT had a yearly sacrifice in case you had not repented enough, or if at all, due to ignorance. Last I heard Calvary replaced that and all other OT sacrifice (except the sacrifice of praise!). The best you can say is that Calvary allows for the grace and means of a Purgatory, but it is also understandable that it could also be seen as an affront to Calvary as insufficient.

What I think is unscriptural is to think Christians will be judged for sins in the flesh just as non believers at the white throne judgement. What will be judged is our works in Christ and for sure some of our works are done in the spirit and some in the flesh, some in faith and some not.

I am not sure Purgatory has gone beyond the simplicity of standing before the Lord for “examination”. We have a foreshadow of that as seen in any of our courtrooms today. The judge does not send you off somewhere to* prepare* for his his pronouncements. Indeed the pronouncements is the refining in and of itself.
 
LutheranScholar #160
Christ stands as the Head of the entire Christian Church, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox. We affirm the Three ancient Creeds and we proclaim the Gospel and have the Sacraments correctly distributed.
Such a “proclamation” displays sophistry and is unworthy of anyone one who claims to follow Christ for it assumes that the Christ both sanctions/doesn’t sanction:
Anything goes for the “Gospel”
Christ’s founding of His Catholic Church with the pope as His supreme authority to teach, sanctify and rule
Sacraments without valid priests
Divorce and remarriage
Abortion
Contraception
Euthanasia
IVF
Women as “priests” and “bishops”
Cloning

What a confused mirage compared with the teaching, sanctifying and ruling of Christ’s Catholic Church.
 
the Gospel gives us hope and consolation that our sins have been forgiven.
Yes, and that they can be overcome, with the help of grace. “Your sins are forgiven; go, and sin no more.” John 8:11 God didn’t create us to sin after all. The major point of the New Covenant is that “Apart from Me you do can nothing.” John 15:5, and, “With man this is impossible but not with God; with God all things are possible.” Mark 10:27

Man was meant for communion with God. Adam separated humankind from that communion. Without God man is lost, and, perhaps, even prefers things that way if truth be known; man is in “hiding” from God. But without Him our moral integrity fails almost completely; we cannot be who we were created to be; we cannot be ourselves, apart from God.

This other notion, that we don’t need to strive, to persevere, to choose rightly, to will rightly, daily, to do right, that we can’t resist grace, that we just can’t be good, or perfect, or holy, actually smacks of priggishness to me, a kind of false holiness of its own where we would sort of over-congratulate ourselves on our faith, on our trusting, on our helplessness, as if God is just so happy to be reminded of our continous acknowledgement of our totally depraved state. But I don’t buy it. God wants our willing participation: this willingness, which He seeks to draw out of us, this alignment with His own will, which He won’t force, is one aspect of our justice, in fact. It’s what He created us for.

It’s a synergistic effort, where we work out our salvation together with He who works in us.
 
Yes. Until you sin again.

Surely you don’t believe that at baptism all your sins, past present and future are forgiven? You can be baptized as an infant, commit adultery as an adult, and go straight to heaven?

Really?

I’m pretty sure that’s not the Lutheran view–maybe another denomination. But not Lutheranism.

How can God the Father see you as clean when you are not? Isn’t that making God blind?
God sees us clean because of Christ’s atoning sacrifice. When the veil was torn we were no longer separated from God because the last sacrifice was made.

God bless!!

Rita
 
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