Question on Purgatory, Answered!

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This deserves much thought , but quickly, sometimes churches take a truth and ritualize it. That is, for sure we suffer for righteousness sake as Christians, as light in a dark world, but not for suffering sake, or as meritorial appeasement. For sure, Christ’s suffering is sufficient enough.
Except where He has left it up to you to cooperate. It is insufficient for you without cooperation.
There is no need to suffer as you say we do (and we will not in the next life) but for sure we do now because of the two kingdoms clashing, even within our members, as well as a Body,ministerially.
The Kingdoms do not seize to clash even when we’ve progressed to a different region of battle.
Again our sufferings are not redemptive and apart from Calvary but are as ministers as Christ was also.
Why would any act of a baptized be apart from the Incarnation, Suffering, Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ?
 
LutheranScholar #194
We can’t earn our way into Heaven. That idea completely does away with the very concept of grace itself. Grace is an undeserved gift.
Faith is indeed a free gift of God, but essentially also, is a voluntary response on our part by which “man offers to God Himself a free obedience, inasmuch as he concurs and cooperates with God’s grace, when he could resist it.” [First Vatican Council, *Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, 3: Denzinger 1791 (3010). See Fr John A Hardon, S.J., The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday, 1975, p 36].

Thus to get to heaven we most emphatically have to earn our way by cooperating with God’s grace.
 
Faith is indeed a free gift of God, but essentially also, is a voluntary response on our part by which “man offers to God Himself a free obedience, inasmuch as he concurs and cooperates with God’s grace, when he could resist it.” [First Vatican Council, *Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith
, 3: Denzinger 1791 (3010). See Fr John A Hardon, S.J., The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday, 1975, p 36].

Thus to get to heaven we most emphatically have to earn our way by cooperating with God’s grace.Yes, and aren’t we well enough to be smart and cooperate. Hooray for those marching in!!??

This another topic,the depravity of man and just how deep does His salvation go.
 
Except where He has left it up to you to cooperate. It is insufficient(Christ’s atonement) for you without cooperation.
My friend , even that is a gift. He gave me the will, where once I had none to do so (but did the opposite).
The Kingdoms do not seize to clash even when we’ve progressed to a different region of battle.
??? Oh ok I meant when Christ finally puts all things under Him and Satan is cast into the lake of fire and every tongue confesses etc .I was talking in the new earth there is no suffering.
Why would any act of a baptized be apart from the Incarnation, Suffering, Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ?
it is not apart from Christ just in differing ways that we relate to Him.Just as you have ways of describing Him in his incarnation, his suffering,his death etc . We are not saved by His Incarnation, or Resurrection or even His ministerial suffering. We are saved by His death on the Cross. Paul separates the latter from his own suffering but relates to the ministerial suffering ,being rejected,mocked even beat.
 
Hi Pablope.

Then why do we pray for those in purgatory for a quicker release,as PR stated ?

On the contrary, I think some aspects of Purgatory don’t understand/accept the reality of the judgement and the futility of making the non negotiable purging negotiable .
Quicker release??? It is God’s ultimate decision…the prayers are for obtaining mercy…like the last part of the Hail Mary…pray for us sinners…
 
Quicker release??? It is God’s ultimate decision…the prayers are for obtaining mercy…like the last part of the Hail Mary…pray for us sinners…
I know but you can’t pray away what has to be, judgement/purging. Just like Christ could not pray away the Cross and “justice” had to be served.

Even the Hail Mary puts a nice emphasis on the “now” and it’s importance, like at death our course is sealed. It does not say pray for us sinners after our death.
 
Even the Hail Mary puts a nice emphasis on the “now” and it’s importance, like at death our course is sealed. It does not say pray for us sinners after our death.
“It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” 2 Maccabees 12:46:
 
We are not saved by His Incarnation, or Resurrection or even His ministerial suffering. We are saved by His death on the Cross. Paul separates the latter from his own suffering but relates to the ministerial suffering ,being rejected,mocked even beat.
I’m sorry but this to me sounds like bordering on heresy. Eastern theology while not reducing the salvific event of the Crucifixion, certainly sees the salvation of the entire universe as tied to Christ’s Incarnation and Transfiguration/Resurrection.
 
I’m sorry but this to me sounds like bordering on heresy. Eastern theology while not reducing the salvific event of the Crucifixion, certainly sees the salvation of the entire universe as tied to Christ’s Incarnation and Transfiguration/Resurrection.
I would agree that we are saved by Christ’s obedient life in His incarnation, by His death at the crucifixion, and by His resurrection. Now He, the Glorious Lord of the Universe, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity Who Sits at the Right Hand of the Father, intercedes for us and rules us, watching over and caring for us.

You could expand the act of the salvation outward to the beginning and end of time. You can also look at it, as I think ben-hur is looking at it, as the component of salvation that occurred at the central event of creation as that which saves us: God’s mercy and justice met at the cross and His anger was put away from us. We are only justified because of Christ’s work on the cross, and that in itself is a great wonder and joy, and not to diminish it, but it is set among a number of great marvels and wonders.

You could spend your whole life drinking the thought of what Christ did on the cross, and never empty that ocean. But there are other wonders of the salvation-history, great oceans of wonder and mercy and God’s love, and I don’t think ben-hur is denying their existence. I think he speaks only of the one.
 
I’m sorry but this to me sounds like bordering on heresy. Eastern theology while not reducing the salvific event of the Crucifixion, certainly sees the salvation of the entire universe as tied to Christ’s Incarnation and Transfiguration/Resurrection.
Yes, they are tied in as you say but the crux of salvation is the Cross.Without it no resurrection. Without it the incarnation would not have wrought atonement. It does not "reduce’’ Salvation as you say but defines it, even highlights it…

PS Just read Tomyris’s post above and it explains it quite eloquently.
 
The sufferings and crucifixion of Christ all achieve** our redemption **– NOT our salvation.

Our salvation depends on our cooperation with God’s grace.
 
The sufferings and crucifixion of Christ all achieve** our redemption **– NOT our salvation.

Our salvation depends on our cooperation with God’s grace.
Our cooperation with God’s grace depends on God’s grace. To restate, we cannot cooperate with God’s grace without God’s grace.
 
Yes, they are tied in as you say but the crux of salvation is the Cross.Without it no resurrection. Without it the incarnation would not have wrought atonement. It does not "reduce’’ Salvation as you say but defines it, even highlights it…

PS Just read Tomyris’s post above and it explains it quite eloquently.
Thanks!🙂
 
In no way can we claim to merit heaven. Salvation is a gift. Merit would be wages and would allow you to show up and demand heaven, because you earned it.

Either an infinitely precious gift or some measly wages. And Christ said that we were to say that when we have done our duty, we are only unworthy servants. NOT that we are worthy.
 
First, Our Lord had to redeem us from the effects of Original Sin which had closed heaven, but was opened by Him for us

Then, for our salvation, what is needed still is what we can and should suffer with Him; have to suffer, and offer supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings as coredeemers (1 Tim 2:5).
It is St. Paul, who wrote: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience. [Frank Sheed, *Christ In Eclipse, p 105-7].

Faith is indeed a free gift of God, but essentially also, is a voluntary response on our part by which “man offers to God Himself a free obedience, inasmuch as he concurs and cooperates with God’s grace, when he could resist it.” [First Vatican Council, *Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, 3: Denzinger 1791 (3010). See Fr John A Hardon, S.J., The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday, 1975, p 36].

Thus to get to heaven we most emphatically have to earn our way by cooperating with God’s grace.
 
“It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” 2 Maccabees 12:46:
Jews did not believe in purgatory but Sheol at this time . By Catholic standards the slain committed a mortal sin (and were slain) for they stole and stole idols. These are not venial sins as you know under Judaism. Venial sins are not met with capital punishment.

The prayers were for the hope in their resurrection.

You also know Macabees for many is not “inspired” and in the next chapter suicide is

There is nothing in scripture that says we can make atonement for deceased.
 
Everything in the N.T. of the Sacred Scriptures, which we have only on the confirmation of the Catholic Church, expresses the true teaching of Christ.

So, St Paul:
“But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

Our Lord expressly linked greater rewards with greater merit in His parable of the talents. St Athanasius the talent as a symbol of grace – “For it is not His will that the grace we have received should be unprofitable, but he requires us to take pains to render Him His own fruits, as the blessed Paul saith: ‘The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace.’ ” [St Athanasius, *Letter VI, 5].

“All, of us have a scrutiny to undergo before Christ’s judgment-seat, for each to reap what his mortal life has earned, good or ill, according to his deeds.” (2 Cor 5:10).

God “will award to every man what his acts have deserved.” (Rom 2:6).

“The apostle notes that ‘there is a graciousness, then, in God, and there is also severity. His severity is for those who have fallen away, his graciousness is for thee, only so long as thou dost continue in His grace; if not, thou too shall be shalt be pruned away’ (Rom 11:22). Paul wrote this to people who were already ‘saved’, in a state of grace – a grace they could lose, becoming ‘unsaved’.”

“Consider Romans 5:2: ‘We are confident in the hope of attaining glory as the sons of God.’ If we….are now sure of heaven, and know nothing can deprive us of it, then we have no reason to hope because we know that heaven is ours. But ‘our salvation is founded on the hope of something’ says Paul. ‘Hope would not be hope at all if its object were in view; how could man still hope for something which he sees?’ (Rom 8:24). We hope for heaven, however well disposed we might be spiritually, because we know we still have a chance to lose it.” [Karl Keating, *Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Ignatius 1988, p 174-5].

“All, of us have a scrutiny to undergo before Christ’s judgment-seat, for each to reap what his mortal life has earned, good or ill, according to his deeds.” (2 Cor 5:10).

“Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.” (Phil 2:12).

The interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures by the saints and by Christ’s Church is the key to the road to holiness, not the feelings and musings of those who contradict Christ’s Church and muddle Her Scriptures.

Thus to get to heaven we most emphatically have to earn our way by cooperating with God’s grace.
 
Everything in the N.T. of the Sacred Scriptures, which we have only on the confirmation of the Catholic Church, expresses the true teaching of Christ.

So, St Paul:
“But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

Our Lord expressly linked greater rewards with greater merit in His parable of the talents. St Athanasius the talent as a symbol of grace – “For it is not His will that the grace we have received should be unprofitable, but he requires us to take pains to render Him His own fruits, as the blessed Paul saith: ‘The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace.’ ” [St Athanasius, *Letter VI,
5].

“All, of us have a scrutiny to undergo before Christ’s judgment-seat, for each to reap what his mortal life has earned, good or ill, according to his deeds.” (2 Cor 5:10).

God “will award to every man what his acts have deserved.” (Rom 2:6).

“The apostle notes that ‘there is a graciousness, then, in God, and there is also severity. His severity is for those who have fallen away, his graciousness is for thee, only so long as thou dost continue in His grace; if not, thou too shall be shalt be pruned away’ (Rom 11:22). Paul wrote this to people who were already ‘saved’, in a state of grace – a grace they could lose, becoming ‘unsaved’.”

“Consider Romans 5:2: ‘We are confident in the hope of attaining glory as the sons of God.’ If we….are now sure of heaven, and know nothing can deprive us of it, then we have no reason to hope because we know that heaven is ours. But ‘our salvation is founded on the hope of something’ says Paul. ‘Hope would not be hope at all if its object were in view; how could man still hope for something which he sees?’ (Rom 8:24). We hope for heaven, however well disposed we might be spiritually, because we know we still have a chance to lose it.” [Karl Keating, *Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Ignatius 1988, p 174-5].

“All, of us have a scrutiny to undergo before Christ’s judgment-seat, for each to reap what his mortal life has earned, good or ill, according to his deeds.” (2 Cor 5:10).

“Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.” (Phil 2:12).

The interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures by the saints and by Christ’s Church is the key to the road to holiness, not the feelings and musings of those who contradict Christ’s Church and muddle Her Scriptures.

Thus to get to heaven we most emphatically have to earn our way by cooperating with God’s grace.
None of this supports your heretical contention that we earn salvation.

Here is something from CAF, for example. catholic.com/quickquestions/why-does-the-church-teach-that-works-can-obtain-salvation
Why does the Church teach that works can obtain salvation?
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Full Question
Why does the Roman Catholic Church teach the doctrine of “works righteousness,” that through good works one can earn salvation?
Answer
The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God’s grace–completely unmerited by works–that one is saved.
The Church teaches that it’s God’s grace from beginning to end which justifies, sanctifies, and saves us. As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, “God is the one, who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.”
Notice that Paul’s words presuppose that the faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it. This is the second half of the justification equation, and Protestants either miss or ignore it.
James 2:17 reminds us that “faith of itself, if it does not have work, is dead.” In verse 24 James says, “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” And later: “For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead” (2:26).
The Council of Trent harmonizes the necessity of grace and works: “If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema” (Session 6; can. 1).
The Council fathers continued by saying, “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema” (Session 6: can. 9).
By the way, “let him be anathema” means “let him be excommunicated,” not “let him be cursed to hell.” The phrase was used in conciliar documents in a technical, theological sense, not in the same sense as the word “anathema” is found in Scripture. Don’t let “Bible Christians” throw you for a loop on this one.
So, far from teaching a doctrine of “works righteousness” (that would be Pelagianism, which was condemned at the Council of Carthage in A.D. 418), the Catholic Church teaches the true, biblical doctrine of justification.
Answered by: Catholic Answers Staff
I fail to see any difference between your position and Pelagianism. I**f you read the above, you will find that the Catholic Church actually has formally condemned and anathematized what you have been saying. **

You need to repent.
 
Only by God’s grace, are we saved… “the initial justification comes from faith not from works.” [Karl Keating, *What Catholics really Believe, p 100].

Where they [the Reformers] erred is in saying that we are saved by faith alone. Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, p 175]

“Faith alone is not enough and works alone are not enough.” [Karl Keating, *What Catholics really Believe, p 101]. Thus only by cooperating with God’s grace can we be saved.

Thus to imagine that no effort is required from us is false. We have to cooperate with that grace by our efforts, and we lose salvation if we refuse to cooperate with the grace always available to us.
 
Thank you for the careful restatement. 🙂
Only by God’s grace, are we saved… “the initial justification comes from faith not from works.” [Karl Keating, *What Catholics really Believe
, p 100].
Ok, as far as it goes.
Where they [the Reformers] erred is in saying that we are saved by faith alone. Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, p 175]
I’m not convinced he really understands sola fide.
“Faith alone is not enough and works alone are not enough.” [Karl Keating, *What Catholics really Believe
, p 101]. Thus only by cooperating with God’s grace can we be saved. I nod my head and go further. Only by the grace of God can we cooperate.
Thus to imagine that no effort is required from us is false. We have to cooperate with that grace by our efforts, and we lose salvation if we refuse to cooperate with the grace always available to us.
The elect WILL cooperate. It’s tautological, as the elect are those who will make it to heaven. But they are given the grace to cooperate until the end. The effort to cooperate requires superhuman energies as we face situations beyond our own natural ability to meet. And those superhuman energies are not in us, but are the gift of God.

All we have is His, and if God crowns us, He is crowning His own work in us. Augustine said something along those lines.
 
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