Question on Purgatory, Answered!

[Isaiah45_9]

Only by God’s grace, are we saved… “the initial justification comes from faith not from works.” [Karl Keating, *What Catholics really Believe

, p 100].

Where they [the Reformers] erred is in saying that we are saved by faith alone. Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Karl Keating, p 175]

“Faith alone is not enough and works alone are not enough.” [Karl Keating, *What Catholics really Believe, p 101]. Thus only by cooperating with God’s grace can we be saved.

Thus to imagine that no effort is required from us is false. We have to cooperate with that grace by our efforts, and we lose salvation if we refuse to cooperate with the grace always available to us.

You said on post #221:

Thus to get to heaven we most emphatically have to earn our way by cooperating with God’s grace.

That is not true to Catholic theology and as such you are placing yourself outside Church teaching.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God’s gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

We don’t earn our way to heaven. It is God’s gift to us. We just use whatever He gives us for His own purpose.

 

[Reuben_J]

Jews did not believe in purgatory but Sheol at this time . By Catholic standards the slain committed a mortal sin (and were slain) for they stole and stole idols. These are not venial sins as you know under Judaism. Venial sins are not met with capital punishment.

The prayers were for the hope in their resurrection.

They did pray for the dead because:
“It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” 2 Maccabees 12:46

Any other name for purgatory is fine.

You also know Macabees for many is not “inspired” and in the next chapter suicide is

If you do not believe in purgatory, Macabees is not inspired for you.

There is nothing in scripture that says we can make atonement for deceased.

Agreed.

 

[Reuben_J]

Thus to get to heaven we most emphatically have to earn our way by cooperating with God’s grace.

If to be saved is to respond to God’s grace, then it is 100% correct.

Jesus might die on the cross but if we do nothing about it, it’s not gonna do any good for us.

God’s love needs a response from us because if there is no response there is no love. Love needs a response so that we can receive that love.

We need to cooperate with God’s love. Saying Lord, Lord, is not enough without believing and showing why we call Lord, Lord.

Reuben

 

[Abu]

The need for our own ACTION is part of the meaning of salvation for those with the use of reason. Since “to earn = deserve by one’s efforts or actions”, and we do not earn or deserve if we fail to act, St James truly stresses “faith without works is dead.”

Works
Question
The Church teaches we are saved by faith and works, not by faith alone. What are “works”? Are these things that we should morally do? Thanks.
**Answer by Fr.Stephen F. Torraco on 01-15-2008 (EWTN): **
‘ “Works” refers to human actions by which we grow in faith, hope, and charity. Such “works” are made possible only by the grace of God.’
tinyurl.com/ogahmzf

**Salvation
Answer by David Gregson on 09-19-2007 (EWTN): **
‘A mistake that Protestants often make is that they interpret what Christ says by what St. Paul says, rather than interpreting St. Paul by what Christ says. For example, Christ, in his simile of the sheep and goats, lists a number of charitable works on which our salvation depends (Matt 25:31-46). Reading St. Paul in light of the gospels helps us to realize that when he says “works of the law” won’t save us, he’s not talking about good works in general, but the (513 statutes of) the Mosaic Law. Good works in general are necessary. See Romans 2:6-11.
‘It’s not that works are added to faith, but that faith, in the light of Christ’s teaching, implies faithfulness, taking up our cross and following Him. That means obedience.’
tinyurl.com/mxgglrk

‘The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught a doctrine of salvation by works…that we can “work” our way into Heaven. Additionally, nowhere in the Bible does it teach that we are saved by “faith alone.” The only place in all of Scripture where the phrase “faith alone” appears is in James 2:24, where it says that we are not justified (or saved) by faith alone.
The Bible says very clearly that we are not saved by faith alone.

‘Works do have something to do with our salvation. Numerous passages in the New Testament that I know of about judgment says we will be judged by our works, not by whether or not we have faith alone. We see this in Romans 2, Matthew 15 and 16, 1 Peter 1, Revelation 20 and 22, 2 Corinthians 5, and many, many more verses.

‘If we are saved by faith alone, why does 1 Corinthians 13:13 say that love is greater than faith? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

‘As Catholics we believe that we are saved by God’s grace alone. We can do nothing, apart from God’s grace, to receive the free gift of salvation. We also believe, however, that we have to respond to God’s grace.’
catholicscomehome.org/salvation/

The CCC 1273 teaches that baptism “enables and commits Christians to serve God….by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.” [See *Lumen Gentium #10].

What is needed is to “remain faithful to the demands of baptism”, for the CCC 1274 emphasises that it is “the faithful Christian who has ’kept the seal’ until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life ‘marked with the sign of faith,’ with his baptismal faith in expectation of the blessed vision of God – the consummation of the faith – and in the hope of resurrection.”
[My emphasis throughout].

From the Modern Catholic Dictionary by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
PELAGIANISM.
Extract:
“Pelagianism is a cluster of doctrinal errors, some of which have plagued the Church ever since. Its principal tenets are: 1. Adam would have died even if he had not sinned; 2. Adam’s fall injured only himself and at worst affected his posterity by giving them a bad example; 3. newborn children are in the same condition as Adam before he fell; 4. mankind will not die because of Adam’s sin or rise on the Last Day because of Christ’s redemption 5. the law of ancient Israel no less than the Gospel offers equal opportunity to reach heaven. As Pelagianism later developed, it totally denied the supernatural order and the necessity of grace for salvation.”
therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl

Thus there is no question of Pelagianism in the Church’s teaching that we shall be judged by our works, and not faith alone.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

You said that we earn heaven.

Show me in official Catholic teaching where this is taught.

 

[Abu]

Earn = deserve by one’s efforts or actions; to gain by labour, to acquire, to deserve; labour = work

Further clarity:
faith and works
Answer by Bill Bilton on 04-16-2002 (EWTN):
Excerpts:
‘Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation, because such is the teaching of Jesus Christ. What Our Lord demands is ``faith that worketh by charity .’’ (Gal. 5 :6). Read Matthew 25:31-46, which describes the Last Judgment as being based on works of charity.’

‘The Catholic Church does not teach that purely human good works are meritorious for salvation; such works are not meritorious for salvation, according to her teaching. Only those good works performed when a person is in the state of grace – that is, as a branch drawing its spiritual life from the Vine which is Christ (John 15:4-6) – only these good deeds work toward our salvation, and they do so only by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ. These good works, offered to God by a soul in the state of grace (i.e., free of mortal sin, with the Blessed Trinity dwelling in the soul), are thereby supernaturally meritorious because they share in the work and in the merits of Christ. Such supernatural good works will not only be rewarded by God, but are necessary for salvation.’

‘St. Paul shows how the neglect of certain good works will send even a Christian believer to damnation: But if any man have not care of his own, and especially of those of his house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.'' (1 Tim. 5:8). Our Lord tells us that if the Master (God) returns and finds His servant sinning, rather than performing works of obedience, He shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers.’’ (Luke 12:46).

Furthermore, Catholics know they will be rewarded in Heaven for their good works. Our Lord Himself said: For the Son of man . . . will render to every man according to his works.'' (Matt. 16:27). And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.’’ (Matt. 10:42). **Catholics believe, following the Apostle Paul, that every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labor.'' (1 Cor. 3:8). **For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints.’’ (Heb. 6:10). ``I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming.’’ (2 Tim. 4:7-8).’
[My emphasis].

“Justification by faith alone is a new doctrine; it was unheard of in the Christian community before the sixteenth century.”
tinyurl.com/ptfrpop

That’s how we earn our reward – by our cooperative work with God – “good works”.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

snipped unrelated content

It is one thing to say:

We earn heaven by our good works.

and another to say:

We earn a reward in heaven by our good works.

Which are not ours but Christ’s.

IOW: You are still outside Church teaching and in grave danger of apostasy unless you change your stance that we “earn” heaven.

 

[Techno2000]

IOW: You are still outside Church teaching and in grave danger of apostasy unless you change your stance that we “earn” heaven.

For as the body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
James 2:26

 

[spedteacherita]

For as the body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
James 2:26

Hi, Techno,

I don’t think Ike (Isaiah 45_9 ) has any issues with this verse at all. What he wants to emphasize is that Catholics don’t “earn” salvation by doing works.

Ike - you’re going to have to help me with what y’all do believe beyond this much.

Earning salvation is what some Protestants understand Catholics do to get to heaven - that was what I always heard - but I have learned differently in here…just can’t totally remember what that is…

Thanks and God bless!

Rita

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi, Techno,

I don’t think Ike (Isaiah 45_9 ) has any issues with this verse at all. What he wants to emphasize is that Catholics don’t “earn” salvation by doing works.

Ike - you’re going to have to help me with what y’all do believe beyond this much.

Earning salvation is what some Protestants understand Catholics do to get to heaven - that was what I always heard - but I have learned differently in here…just can’t totally remember what that is…

Thanks and God bless!

Rita

I think there was a bit of argument on ‘cooperating with God’s grace’. That has to be qualified and it was, I think.

Of course no Catholic would say that we have to earn salvation purely by doing works, which is obvious. Too bad Protestants seem to believe this about Catholics.

 

[spedteacherita]

I think there was a bit of argument on ‘cooperating with God’s grace’. That has to be qualified and it was, I think.

Of course no Catholic would say that we have to earn salvation purely by doing works, which is obvious. Too bad Protestants seem to believe this about Catholics.

I watch Calvary Chapel teachings a lot on my TV - having an illness that inhibits my ability to get to church a lot only allows me certain teachings. Last night one pastor that normally doesn’t do this actually was “downing” some of the teachings of the Catholic Church and I understood the blatant “misinformation” about some of the Church’s teaching. I turned him off…

Rita

 

[Abu]

**What do Catholics teach about being saved?
Answer by Fr. John Echert on 09-02-2007 (EWTN): **
You are getting closer to the truth, but I must make further distinctions. The Catholic Church teaches that faith is necessary for salvation but not of itself sufficient. Our Lord Himself commanded that the disciples go forth and baptise the nations, which confers a particular grace of sanctification. This grace of sanctification is necessary for salvation – at least in the case of those who have access to baptism. The **good works **and repentance which you cite in James are essential, but we say that **they [proceed from supernatural charity as a motive, and not simply faith. In other words, someone can truly have faith in Christ by which they are drawn to Him and accept Him, but would not necessarily do acts of charity for the motive of faith alone – which is why we typically call them acts of charity, that is, supernatural love.
tinyurl.com/k27zdzs

So salvation depends not only on baptism but on **actively doing **what Christ requires through that sacrament as taught by His Church, and not as conjectured by anyone else.

As explained in *The Acts of Explicit Faith Necessary for Salvation *in Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine:
“without faith, it is impossible to please God. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him” [Heb 11:6].
There must also be the holiness that comes from charity. Hebrews also says, ‘Strive….for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.’ ” [Heb 12:14].

“Implicit always in this love or charity is repentance and contrition for sin: Our Lord warns, ‘unless you repent you will all likewise perish.’ ” [Lk 13:3].
Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Archbishop Sheehan, revised by Fr Peter Joseph, The Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 288].

Furthermore, **Catholics know they will be rewarded in Heaven for their good works. ****Our Lord Himself said: For the Son of man . . . will render to every man according to his works.'' (Matt. 16:27). **And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.’’ (Matt. 10:42). Catholics believe, following the Apostle Paul, that every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labor.'' (1 Cor. 3:8).** For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints.’’ (Heb. 6:10). ``I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming.’’ (2 Tim. 4:7-8).’

 

[campeador]

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, 3,15-17:

1. In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

17.We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God’s saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.

Link: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

[Isaiah45_9]

For as the body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
James 2:26

And? I don’t believe in Sola Fide.

We don’t earn heaven and any Catholic that says we do is in grave danger of apostasy.

 

[Tomyris]

**What do Catholics teach about being saved?
Answer by Fr. John Echert on 09-02-2007 (EWTN): **
You are getting closer to the truth, but I must make further distinctions. The Catholic Church teaches that faith is necessary for salvation but not of itself sufficient. Our Lord Himself commanded that the disciples go forth and baptise the nations, which confers a particular grace of sanctification. This grace of sanctification is necessary for salvation – at least in the case of those who have access to baptism. The **good works **and repentance which you cite in James are essential, but we say that they [proceed from supernatural charity as a motive, and not simply faith. In other words, someone can truly have faith in Christ by which they are drawn to Him and accept Him, but would not necessarily do acts of charity for the motive of faith alone – which is why we typically call them acts of charity, that is, supernatural love.
tinyurl.com/k27zdzs

So salvation depends not only on baptism but on **actively doing **what Christ requires through that sacrament as taught by His Church, and not as conjectured by anyone else.

As explained in *The Acts of Explicit Faith Necessary for Salvation *in Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine:
“without faith, it is impossible to please God. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him” [Heb 11:6].
There must also be the holiness that comes from charity. Hebrews also says, ‘Strive….for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.’ ” [Heb 12:14].

“Implicit always in this love or charity is repentance and contrition for sin: Our Lord warns, ‘unless you repent you will all likewise perish.’ ” [Lk 13:3].
Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Archbishop Sheehan, revised by Fr Peter Joseph, The Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 288].

Furthermore, **Catholics know they will be rewarded in Heaven for their good works. ****Our Lord Himself said: For the Son of man . . . will render to every man according to his works.'' (Matt. 16:27). **And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.’’ (Matt. 10:42). **Catholics believe, following the Apostle Paul, that every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labor.'' (1 Cor. 3:8).** For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints.’’ (Heb. 6:10). ``I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice, which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming.’’ (2 Tim. 4:7-8).’

There is a difference between earning your salvation and God granting rewards in heaven.

You seem unable to grasp that.

 

[Abu]

Tomyris #233
There is a difference between earning your salvation and God granting rewards in heaven.
You seem unable to grasp that.

Faith and works
Answer by Catholic Answers (EWTN) on 12-05-2001:
‘Basically, the Catholic concept of “faith working through love” (merit) is the same as the Protestant concept of rewards. After a person has been justified, God puts his love in the person’s heart (Romans 5:5), and the person is able to perform loving actions that please God (Romans 8:8-9, Colossians 1:10, 1 Corinthians 7:32). Thus, we are saved by Christ alone, by grace alone (a free gift), by a living faith, manifesting itself in love. No number of good works can get you into heaven, since “for by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).’

Without our cooperation and application of God’s grace received as a free gift through our faith we cannot be saved, for faith without works is dead.

Father John A. Hardon, S.J. Archives
Questions and Answers
How do we contribute to the work of salvation?
“We contribute to the work of salvation by our willing response to grace; by interceding with God to give us grace; and by freely co-operating with grace when it is conferred.”
therealpresence.org/archives/Q_and_A/Q_and_A_024.htm

Thus cooperation is required by our willing response, is only valid by our free cooperative efforts, not someone else’s, and thus our cooperative response contributes, as promised, to our salvation. Without our cooperative efforts we would not be able to receive, or be worthy of deserving, our salvation. By our active cooperative work we contribute to earning our salvation, which would be impossible without our active cooperation.

 

[benhur]

They did pray for the dead because:
“It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.” 2 Maccabees 12:46

Any other name for purgatory is fine.

If you do not believe in purgatory, Macabees is not inspired for you.

Agreed.

one out of two ain’t bad(resurrection correct but not loosing sins from dead by prayer and money gifts).
Can you really loose anothers’ mortal sin by prayer ?
Maybe one out of three, for Mac condones suicide in next chapter
Historical maybe,inspired, not.

 

[Techno2000]

Can you really loose anothers’ mortal sin by prayer ?

Of course they can be loosed their mortal sin it’s just going to take a whole lot longer.

 

[benhur]

Of course they can be loosed their mortal sin it’s just going to take a whole lot longer.

Hi Techno, are you sure that is the CC teaching ? You are implying you can go to purgatory with a mortal sin.

 

[Techno2000]

Hi Techno, are you sure that is the CC teaching ? You are implying you can go to purgatory with a mortal sin.

I know it is definitely with last rites.