Question regarding Mormon views on God

[Caprica]

Which doesn’t mean one POV (yours) has precedence.

And no one said such a thing. The post to which I was responding to (if you read it) stated "I don’t even see why they’re incorrect views on God even matter.". They matter because this is the Non-Catholic Religions section, and we can discuss our views, among those of other Non-Catholic Religions.

This is very simple.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And no one said such a thing. The post to which I was responding to (if you read it) stated "I don’t even see why they’re incorrect views on God even matter.". They matter because this is the Non-Catholic Religions section, and we can discuss our views, among those of other Non-Catholic Religions.

This is very simple.

"I don’t even see why they’re incorrect views on God even matter." is a valid response by anyone to any religious claim, and one that can be discussed. That is my point.

Your point comes across to me as only wanting to discuss what you agree with.

 

[SnakeMauler]

Again, I like to point that the LDS derive one of their religious texts from a couple of unrelated Egyptian funeral texts, and that their prophets have routinely recieved “revelation” to change certain practices/doctrines etc. (such as blacks in the priesthood) when the US government becomes involved. Therefore, the religion is invalid alltogether.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Again, I like to point that the LDS derive one of their religious texts from a couple of unrelated Egyptian funeral texts, and that their prophets have routinely recieved “revelation” to change certain practices/doctrines etc. (such as blacks in the priesthood) when the US government becomes involved. Therefore, the religion is invalid alltogether.

The Mormon teaching of gods (plural) is found in this book…a pagan text.

 

[SnakeMauler]

The Mormon teaching of gods (plural) is found in this book…a pagan text.

Right, but look at what the rest of I said.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Right, but look at what the rest of I said.

Yes? I see it, thanks.

 

[SnakeMauler]

Yes? I see it, thanks.

You don’t care that they’re racists? My own grandfather couldn’t be a priest because he was black.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You don’t care that they’re racists? My own grandfather couldn’t be a priest because he was black.

Yes, I care. I’ve written against it, here, on this forum.

Peace.

 

[dianaiad]

You don’t care that they’re racists? My own grandfather couldn’t be a priest because he was black.

If you are a US citizen, (depending on your age) the probability is that your grandfather would not have been allowed to be Catholic priest, either. My grandfather, had he been black and Catholic, wouldn’t have, for instance. There weren’t any black Catholic priests in the Americas until well after the civil war, you realize, and even now, according to the Black Catholic Bishops of America, the percentage of black Catholic priests to black Catholic members is less than one tenth the ratio of white Catholic priests to white Catholic members.

…but as of a third of a century (32 years) ago, the percentage of black Mormon men who could become priests was 100%. The percentage of active black Mormon men who DID was also 100%.

As it stands right now, it looks VERY much as if we will have a black Apostle within my lifetime (and I’m over 60.) The Catholic church was in the Americas for…HOW long…before they allowed a single black man to become a priest? Wanna count the CENTURIES, sir?

No, you don’t get to accuse Mormonism of being racist–not when, even when viewed from outside, we solved our percieved racist problems less than 150 years from our inception-considerably less than half the time it has taken you (since y’all are still working on it) and had a 100% participation in the priesthood by our black members within months of the announcement.

Quakers might have that right. I know of no other Christian group that does.

So. Why isn’t the ratio of black priests to black parishioners as high as the ratio of white priests to white parishioners? It’s not, y’know.

Now: If our reason was theological, and the change greeted with joy when it came, that says something rather profound about Mormons as a people, don’t you think…and 'racist" isn’t the word that comes to mind.

What IS the reason that black men were not allowed to become Catholic priests in the USA from Columbus’ advent to well after 1870? that’s, what…nearly three hundred years?

Answer that one, THEN come and talk to the Mormons about racism.

I am so tired of this one…you do realize, don’t you, that if LDS history of racism proves that Mormonism is false, then by that same logic, Catholicism is also false. Use another argument.

 

[Cat_Herder]

…but as of a third of a century (32 years) ago, the percentage of black Mormon men who could become priests was 100%. The percentage of active black Mormon men who DID was also 100%.

That’s because every male who is raised in the LDS church receives the priesthood (both of them!) regardless of whether he actually becomes an elder.

As it stands right now, it looks VERY much as if we will have a black Apostle within my lifetime (and I’m over 60.) The Catholic church was in the Americas for…HOW long…before they allowed a single black man to become a priest? Wanna count the CENTURIES, sir?

Whether or not there were “enough” clergy of African descent in the 19th-early 20th century US Catholic Church, it does not follow that the Catholic Church as kata holos did not have “enough” African clergy. The Catholic Church in Africa has always had plenty of African clergy, for starters.

Please compare apples to apples, that’s all.

 

[Anglican_Gal]

If you are a US citizen, (depending on your age) the probability is that your grandfather would not have been allowed to be Catholic priest, either. My grandfather, had he been black and Catholic, wouldn’t have, for instance. There weren’t any black Catholic priests in the Americas until well after the civil war, you realize, and even now, according to the Black Catholic Bishops of America, the percentage of black Catholic priests to black Catholic members is less than one tenth the ratio of white Catholic priests to white Catholic members.

…but as of a third of a century (32 years) ago, the percentage of black Mormon men who could become priests was 100%. The percentage of active black Mormon men who DID was also 100%.

As it stands right now, it looks VERY much as if we will have a black Apostle within my lifetime (and I’m over 60.) The Catholic church was in the Americas for…HOW long…before they allowed a single black man to become a priest? Wanna count the CENTURIES, sir?

No, you don’t get to accuse Mormonism of being racist–not when, even when viewed from outside, we solved our percieved racist problems less than 150 years from our inception-considerably less than half the time it has taken you (since y’all are still working on it) and had a 100% participation in the priesthood by our black members within months of the announcement.

Quakers might have that right. I know of no other Christian group that does.

So. Why isn’t the ratio of black priests to black parishioners as high as the ratio of white priests to white parishioners? It’s not, y’know.

Now: If our reason was theological, and the change greeted with joy when it came, that says something rather profound about Mormons as a people, don’t you think…and 'racist" isn’t the word that comes to mind.

What IS the reason that black men were not allowed to become Catholic priests in the USA from Columbus’ advent to well after 1870? that’s, what…nearly three hundred years?

Answer that one, THEN come and talk to the Mormons about racism.

I am so tired of this one…you do realize, don’t you, that if LDS history of racism proves that Mormonism is false, then by that same logic, Catholicism is also false. Use another argument.

However, you are comparing apples to oranges. There may not have been black Roman Catholic priests until after the Civil War, however that was a socialization issue and not based on doctrine.

Mormonism teaches explicitly that God turned peoples’ skins black (dark) as a result of sin. For instance, in the Book of Mormon, the Lamanites had their skin darkened due to sinfulness. The Lamanites are considered ancestors of the American Indians. It has also taught that those born into black/darker skinned families, were not “valiant in pre-existence.” This is why the priesthood was denied to blacks.

When BYU was faced with a massive boycott of its football team by blacks, and the Church was being accused of racism (which it was), as well as proselytizing heavily in Brazil where there are many blacks, the prophet of the LDS had a convenient revelation lifting the ban on blacks being ordained - however, the doctrine remains that blacks and dark-skinned peoples were not as “valiant” in their premortal life as white people, and a strong belief among Mormons that the very best spirits get to be born into white Mormon families.

Spencer Kimball, who became a prophet, seer and revelator of the LDS, once asserted that a 16 year old girl who was attending a Mormon chapel was “several shades ighter than her parents…” Apparently association with Mormonism made the girl lighter. He also said, “These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope the process might be accelerated.”

I’m sure people here can see how racist that statement was. To equate righteousness with white skin, and sinfulness with black or brown skin is entirely racist.

More information on this can be found at: mrm.org/white-and-delightsome

 

[catholic-rcia]

here is an interesting note#
The Catholic church had black Popes before America was discovered

 

[stormy99]

When it’s written down it’s really hard to ignore…my ex in laws looked carefully at my dark brown eyes and olive skin…guess I wasn’t a valiant spirit in my pre existence…but then they loved the brown eyed grand kids…and yep the kids still get to visit them…no strings…

stormy

 

[Todd520]

Augustine Tolton (1854 - 1897) was the first black Catholic priest in the USA

You don’t care that they’re racists? My own grandfather couldn’t be a priest because he was black.

 

[Todd520]

When it’s written down it’s really hard to ignore…my ex in laws looked carefully at my dark brown eyes and olive skin…guess I wasn’t a valiant spirit in my pre existence…but then they loved the brown eyed grand kids…and yep the kids still get to visit them…no strings…

stormy

What you experienced is cultural. My mother was a wonderful Catholic, who really didn’t want any of her kids to marry Mormon, or marry black. We had to move towns to find more Catholics when I was young

 

[dianaiad]

However, you are comparing apples to oranges. There may not have been black Roman Catholic priests until after the Civil War, however that was a socialization issue and not based on doctrine.

I get that a lot…and I’m not buying it. The policy was directly handed down from the Pope, in Bulls and encyclicals…as policies if not doctrine.

Now OUR doctrine is, and was, always that blacks would eventually recieve the priesthood, and get all the blessings that come with it.

…and we have lived up to our doctrine, in all ways.

Personally, ma’am, there is a word that is used to describe what happens when every member of a church (from the highest leadership on down) turns away from the doctrine it claims to believe in, and does the precise opposite. I believe the technical term is 'apostasy."

I find it ironic as can be that y’all have the chutspah to claim that the belief system you belong to is ‘true,’ because of a doctrine nobody believes in nor has practiced for hundreds of years, while mine is false because we follow our doctrine completely–and in doing so have ended up with so much less discrimination.

As you can see, this is not an approach that works on me. For one thing, given the ancestry of my husband and children…and understanding completely what happened to my HUSBAND’S grandparents as Catholics when they wanted to marry each other, you will have to excuse me if I’m not impressed.

Mormonism teaches explicitly that God turned peoples’ skins black (dark) as a result of sin. For instance, in the Book of Mormon, the Lamanites had their skin darkened due to sinfulness. The Lamanites are considered ancestors of the American Indians. It has also taught that those born into black/darker skinned families, were not “valiant in pre-existence.” This is why the priesthood was denied to blacks.

Sorry, but that is incorrect. Rather than lecturing me upon what my church teaches, it might be a good idea for you to ask me what my church teaches, instead. Less irritating. More likely to get courteous discourse.

If, that is, you are actually interested in that.

When BYU was faced with a massive boycott of its football team by blacks, and the Church was being accused of racism (which it was), as well as proselytizing heavily in Brazil where there are many blacks, the prophet of the LDS had a convenient revelation lifting the ban on blacks being ordained - however, the doctrine remains that blacks and dark-skinned peoples were not as “valiant” in their premortal life as white people, and a strong belief among Mormons that the very best spirits get to be born into white Mormon families.

No, that is absolutely not correct.

Spencer Kimball, who became a prophet, seer and revelator of the LDS, once asserted that a 16 year old girl who was attending a Mormon chapel was “several shades ighter than her parents…” Apparently association with Mormonism made the girl lighter. He also said, “These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope the process might be accelerated.”

I’m sure people here can see how racist that statement was. To equate righteousness with white skin, and sinfulness with black or brown skin is entirely racist.

More information on this can be found at: mrm.org/white-and-delightsome

Of course. I should have known.Why don’t you quote Ed Decker and Walter Martin while you are at it?

 

[RebeccaJ]

If there’s any Catholic here who was ever taught that skin color indicated one’s position with God in a pre-mortal existence, and that position then dictates a person’s position in this life, I’d like to hear about it.

Thanks in advance.

 

[dianaiad]

here is an interesting note#
The Catholic church had black Popes before America was discovered

Yes. You had three. ALL of whom served over a thousand years ago.

However, only one of them is confirmed to be of African negroid stock…the other two were actually thought to be middle eastern, not ‘black.’

But please note: that was very early on, and it WAS a very non-black Pope who actually began the slave trade with the Portuguese, and I did talk about the church in the Americas. If you want to talk about the church in, say…Japan?

No, that wouldn’t be a good place to go.

Anywhere else? Probably not so much…

 

[dianaiad]

When it’s written down it’s really hard to ignore…my ex in laws looked carefully at my dark brown eyes and olive skin…guess I wasn’t a valiant spirit in my pre existence…but then they loved the brown eyed grand kids…and yep the kids still get to visit them…no strings…

stormy

How nice of you. You mean…you are proud of yourself for not shunning the Mormons?

 

[catholic-rcia]

Yes. You had three. ALL of whom served over a thousand years ago.

However, only one of them is confirmed to be of African negroid stock…the other two were actually thought to be middle eastern, not ‘black.’

But please note: that was very early on, and it WAS a very non-black Pope who actually began the slave trade with the Portuguese, and I did talk about the church in the Americas. If you want to talk about the church in, say…Japan?

No, that wouldn’t be a good place to go.

Anywhere else? Probably not so much…

**Dianaaid, you can point out the sins, its ok, its why we have our church. For us it is a hospital for sinners. If we had no sin within it…why the need? **

Does not matter the skin tone, has nothing to do with anything of great spiritual importance. When I was 4 years old I had a black Nanny. I was blessed by having here as I grew up with no prejudice in my soul because of this women. So later as I grew up LDS and heard my own Grand mother who I loved dearly speak on this matter. She was trying to teach me why the blacks can not hold the LDS Priesthood. I knew then at about 8 years old that she was wrong regarding this subject. This is just one thing that led me to question the LDS faith at a very young age and helped set the table for things to come, to unfold late in my life. I sincerely thank God for these small insights. One of the others that helped me was the words from my grandfathers lips “I am not good enough to be in that church Richy”
My story regarding this can be found here
http://utahmission.com/pages/Forgive.html

12 years old I heard those words from my grandfather. To this day I know it was my grandfather who showed me Jesus and he did not even know it as he had no particular faith in God. He was neither LDS nor Catholic. But much more Catholic than he ever knew then.

Jesus was perfect in the sense that he loved all of His creation the same and He showed us how not to be pulled into the devils spin regarding prejudice. He showed his Love to all of those that were divided amongst each other in those times by conversing with those thought to be great sinners and healing those that were on the outer camps of society including the taxpayers for Rome who were despised by their own people. He went where the need for Him was greatest This is the Catholic Church as she herself in and through Christ loves all sinners, setting us free from this dilemma. . If we want to know how we should act towards “all of His creation” Jesus is our perfect example. The Church has always had Him to point to when each of us strays from His spoken truths from time to time. The perfect mix in all of this has always been His real presence in the Holy Eucharist along with the Sacrament of Confession. I love my Church and her solid Wisdom in such matters of faith. You would expect nothing less as to the Church Christ established. This why the Confessional so close to the Alter of our Lord.

Continued…