Questioning miracles?

[laocmo]

I have concluded, after many years of reading, both pro and con, that apparent miracles such as Fatima, Padre Pio, bleeding statues, stigmata. etc. are real and have been witnessed, photographed, etc. by impartial observers. I maintain miracles can be completely real to us who observes them. But they do not necessarily have an objective reality or come from God. I feel they are unfortunately just some type of very advanced trickery. Consider this.

The first African explorers were considered Gods because they made fire by using “magic” (matches) and killed vicious wild animals with “magic poles”, (guns). No doubt some skeptics back then either denied it happened or attributed it to trickery rather than to a God. Just as they do today. Have you any concept of the “magic” that an advanced race of beings could perform for us? Say one with 100,000 years head start on the inhabitants of this earth? They could make the sun apparently stand still, spin, descend to the earth, and make it as real as they want it to be. It does not have to be from God or evil spirits, just an advanced being with the technology to do it. Are believers in miracles really any different today than were those African natives? That we might be just something’s grand experiment should be obvious to anyone who has done some research into such things.

 

[bsroufek]

I pray that you gain faith in God and in His power and in His willingness to act in our everyday lives in response to prayer.

Jesus said, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, ‘May you be uprooted and thrown into the sea,’ and it would obey you!”

You don’t have faith and you need it for eternal Life.

 

[laocmo]

I think I’m with Mark Twain on that…“Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.”

 

[Della]

I don’t believe you are as truly informed about this topic as you think you are, laocmo. If you were you would know that the Church never accepts any miracle without thorough research into the event. All the miracles the Church has approved have been fully documented and investigated by reliable people, and not just bishops, either, but scientists and doctors, many with no connection to the Church. The criteria for the declaration of a miracle is very high and even then the faithful do not have to believe in them or follow any particular devotion that may arise from them. I think you need to do a bit more reading.

 

[Joe_5859]

I have concluded, after many years of reading, both pro and con, that apparent miracles such as Fatima, Padre Pio, bleeding statues, stigmata. etc. are real and have been witnessed, photographed, etc. by impartial observers. I maintain miracles can be completely real to us who observes them. But they do not necessarily have an objective reality or come from God. I feel they are unfortunately just some type of very advanced trickery. Consider this.

The first African explorers were considered Gods because they made fire by using “magic” (matches) and killed vicious wild animals with “magic poles”, (guns). No doubt some skeptics back then either denied it happened or attributed it to trickery rather than to a God. Just as they do today. Have you any concept of the “magic” that an advanced race of beings could perform for us? Say one with 100,000 years head start on the inhabitants of this earth? They could make the sun apparently stand still, spin, descend to the earth, and make it as real as they want it to be. It does not have to be from God or evil spirits, just an advanced being with the technology to do it. Are believers in miracles really any different today than were those African natives? That we might be just something’s grand experiment should be obvious to anyone who has done some research into such things.

You cannot just take a little anecdote about the Spanish conquistadors and use it to discount all alleged miracles as “advanced trickery.” How exactly would “advanced trickery” explain St. Pio’s stigmata? Do you think a poor Capuchin priest had the means and the desire to pull off such an elaborate trick?

Believe it or not, the Church conducts fairly exhaustive investigations into claims of the miraculous. The Church has no desire to put forth mere tricks as miracles. There would be no quicker way for the Church to discredit herself.

I think you have further reading to do.

 

[Bonnie]

I don’t believe most miracles either, tho I have reserved judgment on a few.

The main reason I don’t believe most of the miracles I have read about is because they are usually subjective, usually small, and usually pointless.

Most of the medical “miracles” can be explained by spontaneous remission, natural healing over time, or wrong diagnosis - often self-diagnosis.

Eucharistic “miracles” can often be chalked up to mold.

Rosary chains that turned to “gold” were found to be tarnished.

Visionaries are often frauds, or perhaps self-deluded. Bleeding or weeping statues, ditto.

Not too long ago, a man in India was harassed by Catholic priests because he exposed a “bleeding” statue as water dripping from a drain. I think they were hoping to make some money out of it.

If I have to believe garbage to be a Catholic, I’m gone. Fortunately, the Church does not require that kind of belief, tho many Catholics do.

 

[brumano]

I have concluded, after many years of reading, both pro and con, that apparent miracles such as Fatima, Padre Pio, bleeding statues, stigmata. etc. are real and have been witnessed, photographed, etc. by impartial observers. I maintain miracles can be completely real to us who observes them. But they do not necessarily have an objective reality or come from God. I feel they are unfortunately just some type of very advanced trickery. Consider this

.

The first African explorers were considered Gods because they made fire by using “magic” (matches) and killed vicious wild animals with “magic poles”, (guns). No doubt some skeptics back then either denied it happened or attributed it to trickery rather than to a God. Just as they do today. Have you any concept of the “magic” that an advanced race of beings could perform for us? Say one with 100,000 years head start on the inhabitants of this earth? They could make the sun apparently stand still, spin, descend to the earth, and make it as real as they want it to be. It does not have to be from God or evil spirits, just an advanced being with the technology to do it. Are believers in miracles really any different today than were those African natives? That we might be just something’s grand experiment should be obvious to anyone who has done some research into such things.

If they can make the sun actually come out of it’s place on one small country, come speeding toward earth and stop and return to it’s exact distance from the earth while only a handful of people other than in fatima can see it, and the rest of the world notices nothing; then they are God.

 

[Della]

I don’t believe most miracles either, tho I have reserved judgment on a few.

The main reason I don’t believe most of the miracles I have read about is because they are usually subjective, usually small, and usually pointless.

Most of the medical “miracles” can be explained by spontaneous remission, natural healing over time, or wrong diagnosis - often self-diagnosis.

Eucharistic “miracles” can often be chalked up to mold.

Rosary chains that turned to “gold” were found to be tarnished.

Visionaries are often frauds, or perhaps self-deluded. Bleeding or weeping statues, ditto.

Not too long ago, a man in India was harassed by Catholic priests because he exposed a “bleeding” statue as water dripping from a drain. I think they were hoping to make some money out of it.

If I have to believe garbage to be a Catholic, I’m gone. Fortunately, the Church does not require that kind of belief, tho many Catholics do.

The Church reserves the declaration of “worthy of belief” to very few miraculous events, and rightfully so. As I wrote in my first post in this thread, all authenticated miracles are fully investigated. Wild claims of miracles are not on the same level as those that have been approved. It is the bishop’s place to look into alleged miracles that are being promoted in his diocese. What other individuals do, even priests, is not relevant. If the bishop does not approve of a miracle, it’s not a miracle. Plain and simple.

 

[Geo17]

This question is bordering on an issue that may soon become very evident. Most Protestants don’t want to even know about it, but maybe Catholics will. I’m taking some of what I’m saying from the books of Enoch, which Protestants dismiss because they aren’t canon. And while I do agree with that, some of what they say is probably true.

We know there are Holy angels that obey God, and we know there are fallen angels, who along with Lucifer/Satan made war against God.

I believe these fallen angels have been giving us knowledge and technology that God never meant for us to have. But He allows it.

It seems that we have been being conditioned through TV and music to accept beings who will come from outer space. Some people think these are benevolent aliens who are here to help us. I think they are the fallen angels, and all they’re helping us to do is bring God’s wrath on us. That doesn’t make sense in a way, but that’s probably because we’re mortal and we can’t totally understand the motivation of immortal beings.

I’ve been trying to learn about what Mary said at Fatima and other places. If what I read is correct, some time near 2017 there will be 3 days with no Sunlight. When the Sun shines again, there will be aliens here who will take credit for bring back the Sunlight. But these beings either will be the antichrist, or they will come right before the antichrist. This is one theory.

The other is these aliens will claim to be mortal, like us. I think they will be capable of tricking us into thinking some of them died, and that will make people accept them as friendly aliens. But they won’t be friendly aliens nor will they be mortal. It will be a trick.

We can stop or postpone this through prayer, repentance, and penance. But I doubt we will. Some of us will, but I doubt enough of us will do so.

One way or another, I think we will soon get to see the beings who have always been here, but remained hidden to us. Many people will either accept these beings as God, or they will accept these beings as proof God doesn’t exist. But some of us will know they are the evil fallen angels.

 

[JerryZ]

A “true” miracle will most often become more unexplainable even as science makes advances that “should” in theory disprove it.

Let’s look at the Sacred image of the Virgin of Guadalupe in Mexico.

The material that "holds’ it is the only known axample of a Tilma from that period (A type of poor ruana or mantle used by the mexican natives made out of a plant).

The reason? The material, utterly decomposes and rots away, being made from rather poor plant fibers. Yet the one holding the image shows no signs of any deterioration.

I won’t even go into the means the image is present, only that there are no pigments involved. (This has been corroborated by extensive tests and analysis carried out by indipendent scientist even by NASA).

Further just recently it has been discovered that the image has an intrinsic temperature of 36.6 °C or aprox 97.9 °F irrespective of ambient temperature.

And then there is the discovery of the “hidden” images in the pupils of the image, just like a true pupil would reflect whatever you are looking at.

Also the stars that are in the image are a PERFECT representation of the firmament present or visible in Mexico at the time the image appeared, EXCEPT no one could see those stars, YET.
We had to invent the Hubble telescope in order to be able to see them.
The more we “learn” the more we are shown how little we really know.

Then there are the eucharistic miracles, where the common thread is that when they test them sometimes thousands of years after they ocurred the results show that it is not a piece of bread but heart muscle tissue and real human blood.
The one in Lanciano Italy happened 1200 years ago and there is NO mold involved.
And it is by no means unique.
God allows these miracles to happen to help our modern day St. Thomases that require some special help in order to believe.
Others alas will not be convinced no matter what evidence they are given.
They are just like the scribes and pharisees that asked Jesus for a sign, when in fact they had already been given many. Curing the sick, the lepers, the blind, the maimed etc. even the resurrection of dead people and they had the gall to ask for a sign

Peace

 

[Randy_Carson]

I don’t believe most miracles either, tho I have reserved judgment on a few.

The main reason I don’t believe most of the miracles I have read about is because they are usually subjective, usually small, and usually pointless.

Most of the medical “miracles” can be explained by spontaneous remission, natural healing over time, or wrong diagnosis - often self-diagnosis.

Eucharistic “miracles” can often be chalked up to mold.

Rosary chains that turned to “gold” were found to be tarnished.

Visionaries are often frauds, or perhaps self-deluded. Bleeding or weeping statues, ditto.

Not too long ago, a man in India was harassed by Catholic priests because he exposed a “bleeding” statue as water dripping from a drain. I think they were hoping to make some money out of it.

If I have to believe garbage to be a Catholic, I’m gone. Fortunately, the Church does not require that kind of belief, tho many Catholics do.

Fair enough, Bonnie. Are there any miracles that you have found to be plausible?

 

[boomerang]

Have you any concept of the “magic” that an advanced race of beings could perform for us? Say one with 100,000 years head start on the inhabitants of this earth? They could make the sun apparently stand still, spin, descend to the earth, and make it as real as they want it to be. It does not have to be from God or evil spirits, just an advanced being with the technology to do it. Are believers in miracles really any different today than were those African natives? That we might be just something’s grand experiment should be obvious to anyone who has done some research into such things.*

Tribal natives can be excused because of their ignorance of technology, but there is no scientific explanation for miracles, visions, healings and so on. And are you implying that religious miracles are the result of an advanced civilization from the future? Or from outer space? Those ideas are the work of the evil one.

 

[laocmo]

…" All the miracles the Church has approved have been fully documented and investigated by reliable people"… Very true, note, in my original post I said I believed these things really happened. What I disagree with is attributing it to God. Your attributing it to God is just like the savage attributing magic fire to God. Have you any idea what advancements could be made by a civilization 100,000 years ahead of us. Someone else said at Fatima the sun seemed to descend to earth as witnessed by thousands. I agree, it even made the newspapers. Did it actually happen, no, it was a trick, a magic show put on to see how the gullible would react. Astronomers saw no such thing happen. The laws of physics would not allow it.The question is who did it and for what reason.
Couple of questions: 1. Why are the marks of stigma in the palms when the Romans crucified through the wrists? The human body would, as has been shown, be heavy enough to rip the nails right through the hand.
2. Why are there lots of crutches but no wooden legs hanging on the wall of the cathedrals in Mexico, Lourdes, Fatima, etc? Can God not grow a new leg?

 

[Randy_Carson]

…" All the miracles the Church has approved have been fully documented and investigated by reliable people"… Very true, note, in my original post I said I believed these things really happened. What I disagree with is attributing it to God. Your attributing it to God is just like the savage attributing magic fire to God. Have you any idea what advancements could be made by a civilization 100,000 years ahead of us. Someone else said at Fatima the sun seemed to descend to earth as witnessed by thousands. I agree, it even made the newspapers. Did it actually happen, no, it was a trick, a magic show put on to see how the gullible would react. Astronomers saw no such thing happen. The laws of physics would not allow it.The question is who did it and for what reason.
Couple of questions: 1. Why are the marks of stigma in the palms when the Romans crucified through the wrists? The human body would, as has been shown, be heavy enough to rip the nails right through the hand.

                              2. Why are there lots of crutches but no wooden legs hanging on the wall of the cathedrals in Mexico, Lourdes, Fatima, etc? Can God not grow a new leg?

Have you ever come across a miracle that you are willing to attribute to God?

 

[boomerang]

This question is bordering on an issue that may soon become very evident. Most Protestants don’t want to even know about it, but maybe Catholics will. I’m taking some of what I’m saying from the books of Enoch, which Protestants dismiss because they aren’t canon. And while I do agree with that, some of what they say is probably true.

We know there are Holy angels that obey God, and we know there are fallen angels, who along with Lucifer/Satan made war against God.

I believe these fallen angels have been giving us knowledge and technology that God never meant for us to have. But He allows it.

It seems that we have been being conditioned through TV and music to accept beings who will come from outer space. Some people think these are benevolent aliens who are here to help us. I think they are the fallen angels, and all they’re helping us to do is bring God’s wrath on us. That doesn’t make sense in a way, but that’s probably because we’re mortal and we can’t totally understand the motivation of immortal beings.

I’ve been trying to learn about what Mary said at Fatima and other places. If what I read is correct, some time near 2017 there will be 3 days with no Sunlight. When the Sun shines again, there will be aliens here who will take credit for bring back the Sunlight. But these beings either will be the antichrist, or they will come right before the antichrist. This is one theory.

The other is these aliens will claim to be mortal, like us. I think they will be capable of tricking us into thinking some of them died, and that will make people accept them as friendly aliens. But they won’t be friendly aliens nor will they be mortal. It will be a trick.

We can stop or postpone this through prayer, repentance, and penance. But I doubt we will. Some of us will, but I doubt enough of us will do so.

One way or another, I think we will soon get to see the beings who have always been here, but remained hidden to us. Many people will either accept these beings as God, or they will accept these beings as proof God doesn’t exist. But some of us will know they are the evil fallen angels.

I agree. This whole UFO business is either mass craziness (somewhat unlikely on such a large scale), or it is the work of the evil ones (likely). I personally know there are beings that are “hidden from us”. I saw one in 2010, and my husband saw one in 2012. They were what people call “orbs”. A white one for me and a blue one for my husband. Both came after prayer, and seemed peaceful and positive. A friend of mine saw what is commonly called a “shadow person”. That was definitely evil. These ones can appear however they want, I suspect. Even as aliens from outer space. Their time is running out.

 

[boomerang]

…" All the miracles the Church has approved have been fully documented and investigated by reliable people"… Very true, note, in my original post I said I believed these things really happened. What I disagree with is attributing it to God. Your attributing it to God is just like the savage attributing magic fire to God. Have you any idea what advancements could be made by a civilization 100,000 years ahead of us. Someone else said at Fatima the sun seemed to descend to earth as witnessed by thousands. I agree, it even made the newspapers. Did it actually happen, no, it was a trick, a magic show put on to see how the gullible would react. Astronomers saw no such thing happen. The laws of physics would not allow it.The question is who did it and for what reason.
Couple of questions: 1. Why are the marks of stigma in the palms when the Romans crucified through the wrists? The human body would, as has been shown, be heavy enough to rip the nails right through the hand.

                              2. Why are there lots of crutches but no wooden legs hanging on the wall of the cathedrals in Mexico, Lourdes, Fatima, etc? Can God not grow a new leg?

1. Jesus WAS nailed through the “wrist”. Do you know where the wrist is? It’s in your hand. It’s not in the arm, as is being depicted in modern times. The wrist is part of the hand. Ask any doctor. The Shroud shows the hole in the back of the hand, down low, near the top of the arm. That is the wrist. It’s part of the hand.That is where the stigmata is. That is where the bible says he was nailed. Look at Dr. Zugibe’s work: shroud.com/zugibe.htm
2. God heals what you’ve got. Not what you don’t have. You don’t have a leg? He’s not going to heal it. Sorry. It’s gone. You’ll get it back with your glorified body at the end.

 

[JerryZ]

…" All the miracles the Church has approved have been fully documented and investigated by reliable people"… Very true, note, in my original post I said I believed these things really happened. What I disagree with is attributing it to God. Your attributing it to God is just like the savage attributing magic fire to God. Have you any idea what advancements could be made by a civilization 100,000 years ahead of us. Someone else said at Fatima the sun seemed to descend to earth as witnessed by thousands. I agree, it even made the newspapers. Did it actually happen, no, it was a trick, a magic show put on to see how the gullible would react. Astronomers saw no such thing happen. The laws of physics would not allow it.The question is who did it and for what reason.
Couple of questions: 1. Why are the marks of stigma in the palms when the Romans crucified through the wrists? The human body would, as has been shown, be heavy enough to rip the nails right through the hand.

                              2. Why are there lots of crutches but no wooden legs hanging on the wall of the cathedrals in Mexico, Lourdes, Fatima, etc? Can God not grow a new leg?

I am going to address this to try to help you understand the way the Roman crucifiction worked.
It was supposed to be a torture. A very very painfull and SLOW way to die.
Actual cause of death (asphixia)

If the romans had actually nailed people by the wrists, as some people, ignorant of roman’s procedures, have suggested, would defeat the purpose.
Because right there you would cause massive blood loss and FAST death.

The SOP was to nail the hands to the beam so that he could NOT use them to prop himself (the executed victim) and would tie the arms with ropes to the beam loosely so that they would not come off the nails. The only way to stay alive, was to prop yourself up with your legs. At every breath you had to push yourself up. Until you could no more, through exhaustion and die of asphixia.

In fact the Roman Centurion was shocked that Jesus died so quickly, however remember HE had been scourged prior to being crucified AND had to carry HIS cross too.

And this is the reason he (the Centurion) ordered the soldier to pierce Jesus heart with the lance to make sure HE was dead.

Also the reason they broke the legs of the 2 thieves was because as the earth was shaking (Tremor?) they had to end the proceedings quickly, breaking their legs == swift death for them

 

[MPat]

I have concluded, after many years of reading, both pro and con, that apparent miracles such as Fatima, Padre Pio, bleeding statues, stigmata. etc. are real and have been witnessed, photographed, etc. by impartial observers. I maintain miracles can be completely real to us who observes them. But they do not necessarily have an objective reality or come from God. I feel they are unfortunately just some type of very advanced trickery. Consider this.

The first African explorers were considered Gods because they made fire by using “magic” (matches) and killed vicious wild animals with “magic poles”, (guns). No doubt some skeptics back then either denied it happened or attributed it to trickery rather than to a God. Just as they do today. Have you any concept of the “magic” that an advanced race of beings could perform for us? Say one with 100,000 years head start on the inhabitants of this earth? They could make the sun apparently stand still, spin, descend to the earth, and make it as real as they want it to be. It does not have to be from God or evil spirits, just an advanced being with the technology to do it. Are believers in miracles really any different today than were those African natives? That we might be just something’s grand experiment should be obvious to anyone who has done some research into such things.

Er, that would leave two major questions: “Who?” and “Why?”… In your example African natives have good answers to these questions: “Who?” - “That suspiciously white man.”, “Why?” - “He wanted some fire.” / “He wanted to kill that animal.”. Do you have a good answer in your case…? Or any evidence that would suggest your version? Or any evidence that would contradict the other versions, but not your version?

 

[fred_conty]

laocmo,
The Fatima miracle was of the mud. It rained all night. People were soaked along with the ground. They were standing in mud. When the miracle of the sun happened, the ground dried quickly. Now unless they were all carrying electric blowdriers powered by batteries, how did they get dry so fast along with the ground?

Just a thought.

 

[Bonnie]

Fair enough, Bonnie. Are there any miracles that you have found to be plausible?

While there are some I don’t understand, there are none (so far) that are evident enough that I would be willing to call them miracles.