Questioning the Catholic Church

[workingman]

I am questioning weather or not to stay in the Catholic Church. I have started writing about it in my blog. It is a little long in my opinion to put in a post on CAF. So I will put the link below. Help please this is tearing at me and my family.

theworkingmansthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/07/30/questioning-the-catholic-church/

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I am questioning weather or not to stay in the Catholic Church. I have started writing about it in my blog. It is a little long in my opinion to put in a post on CAF. So I will put the link below. Help please this is tearing at me and my family.

theworkingmansthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/07/30/questioning-the-catholic-church/

Sir, if you have doubts with regards to the Catholic Church, you should pray and talk to your priest foremost. Make sure you investigate everything thoroughly.

Anyway, with regards to some of your issues:

• the Catholic Church does not accept Co-Redemptrix as an official doctrine. However, as a Catholic, I assume you know that “Co-Redemptrix” has nothing to do with stating that Mary was some how equal to Jesus in redeeming humanity. I personally feel it is dangerous to raise the doctrine because it gives people mistaken perceptions, but it isn’t what people tend to say it is.
• Indulgences: Mardukm was excellent in explaining it. I would refer you to the thread on Indulgences that I opened.
  forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=567728
  Marduk gives entirely satisfactory responses. Hope it helps.

I’m sure some of your Catholic brethren here can offer you some assistance as well. I can’t help you either way, I am not a Catholic and have no right to attempt to assist you in moving one way or another.

 

[Heuchler]

To address the problems you talked about in your blog:
Transubstantiation is a mystery. It is something that is very complicated and hard to explain. I expect you can find a good explanation in the Catechism or voice your objections here.

Communion through one species is the same as doing both. We believe that in the Eucharist is the fullness of Christ, Body and blood, soul and divinity. When you eat the body, you receive the whole Christ, blood and all. When you drink His blood, you receive the whole Christ, body and all. You are not receiving a piece you are receiving the whole thing.

Intercession is the same on Earth as it is in Heaven. It is the same as asking a friend to pray for you. The only difference is that when you pray to Saints, you pray to people who are literally with God.

Indulgences are acts that bring us closer to God and show that we are sorry for what we did. These are things that help us to become holier people and in turn help us to reach Heaven faster (in a sense).

Mary is the Mother of God. Through her yes, humanity has opened ourselves up to redemption. She has helped save us all. However, I would agree that some people take Marian devotion too far and do focus too much on Mary. We should respect and honor her for her yes to God and ask for her intercession, but don’t make her our main focus.

Please, know that you are in our prayers and if you have any other questions, fell free to ask them here.

 

[Samuel63]

I wanted to offer two points. The visible catholic church you see in the press, and on TV, is only part of the real Church. This visible church has a lot of people at the bishop and priest level that are not so great. Our pope however is a truly great man and a genious by almost any standard. The point is, do not let scandals in the media and lack of faith at your local parish push you to despair. This is what the evil one wants to happen.

Second, if you look closely at how civilization is progressing, or rather regressing in some areas, it can be helped along by only one institution - the catholic church. For example, many countries are aborting and contracepting to a degree, that in only 25 years, they will be facing a rapid spiral of population decline. The catholic church is the only voice in this wilderness that is even saying abortion and contraception are wrong. You have to conclude, there is something different about this organization. It is on the right side of the issue and all alone in its position. This is not a group you want to leave without serious consideration.

OK, one more point. If your local parish is like mine, it is run by Sister Liberal and Ms. Ecumenical, and Mrs. Social Justice, and Mrs. Creative Liturgist. It is a liberal church nightmare. I have not left because the eucharis is concecrated there and the drive is short. I get fed elsewhere though. I keep tabs on the liturgical abuse and write about it to Rome. In short, if your local parish is a disaster and has no redeeming social dimension, welcome to the club. Learn the faith together as a family at home and grow in holiness in the domestic church - your very own family.

This site has a lot of great resources. I can offer more ideas if you want.

 

[zz912]

Have faith my good man! You are in the Church that Christ Himself established, so be patient and pray for understanding of these doctrines you are struggling with. You say you are new to the Church, well this is the time that Satan is going to attack you, before you have learned the faith fully and are susceptible to these issues.

Remember the parable of the seed thrown on the ground. Some fell on rocky soil. It grew quickly, but the roots were shallow and when the heat of day hit them, they dried up and withered away. Work to deepen your roots.

As to your questions:

1. flawed explanation of Transubstantiation
2. communing under one species (bread only or bread and wine)
3. prayers (intercessory) of the saints
4. indulgences
5. Mary as Co-Redemptrix.
6. What exactly is the issue with the explanation? Can’t really respond until it has been expounded some. But some food for thought. Even in the Bible, people would see a miracle right before their eyes, and still wouldn’t believe. We witness maybe THE greatest miracle of all time at every Mass. But we won’t see unless we believe. Jesus is God of all the universe, and created EVERYTHING. He can certainly turn bread and wine into His Body and Blood.
7. This one was never an issue for me. I always understood in that you cannot split Christ. You receive the totality of Him under either species. The priest fulfills the requirement to receive for everyone at Mass when he receives under both.
8. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful. Scripture says so. And Revelations specifically says that the saints in Heaven take our prayers to the altar in Heaven.
9. Others can give more responses on indulgences, but this for me falls under the Church’s authority that “whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven”. The SELLING of indulgences is an abhorrent sin, but granting indulgences is not.
10. Mary is not Co-Redemtrix in that she has any power on her own, it only points to how perfectly she aligned herself with God to do His will. And by doing so, she became the Ark of the New Covenant and brought forth God Himself to earth to begin His ministry and ultimately fulfill His plan to save us.

 

[mark_a]

I am questioning weather or not to stay in the Catholic Church. I have started writing about it in my blog. It is a little long in my opinion to put in a post on CAF. So I will put the link below. Help please this is tearing at me and my family.

theworkingmansthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/07/30/questioning-the-catholic-church/

This is just my opinion, but the first two paragraphs of your blog seem to contain the reasons for your trouble with the Catholic Church.

The stuff at the end is the usual stuff we see.

Do you disagree with the moral theology of the Catholic Church? If so, you are not ready to be Catholic.

Best wishes to you and your family on your journey.

 

[workingman]

Sir, if you have doubts with regards to the Catholic Church, you should pray and talk to your priest foremost. Make sure you investigate everything thoroughly.

Anyway, with regards to some of your issues:

• the Catholic Church does not accept Co-Redemptrix as an official doctrine. However, as a Catholic, I assume you know that “Co-Redemptrix” has nothing to do with stating that Mary was some how equal to Jesus in redeeming humanity. I personally feel it is dangerous to raise the doctrine because it gives people mistaken perceptions, but it isn’t what people tend to say it is.
• Indulgences: Mardukm was excellent in explaining it. I would refer you to the thread on Indulgences that I opened.
  forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=567728
  Marduk gives entirely satisfactory responses. Hope it helps.

I’m sure some of your Catholic brethren here can offer you some assistance as well. I can’t help you either way, I am not a Catholic and have no right to attempt to assist you in moving one way or another.

Thank you for your advice and the link. I plan on contacting the priest at my parish to talk and get some advice and direction.

 

[workingman]

Heuchler;8185053]To address the problems you talked about in your blog:
Transubstantiation is a mystery. It is something that is very complicated and hard to explain. I expect you can find a good explanation in the Catechism or voice your objections here.

Yes it is. I do not doubt the true presence. That is plain from scripture in it self. I think some things a better left without a scientific (for lack of a better term excapes me right now). It is what it is because Christ said that is what it is.

Communion through one species is the same as doing both. We believe that in the Eucharist is the fullness of Christ, Body and blood, soul and divinity. When you eat the body, you receive the whole Christ, blood and all. When you drink His blood, you receive the whole Christ, body and all. You are not receiving a piece you are receiving the whole thing.

I understand that it all of it in one or the other. The problem I guess that realy bugs me is we were commanded to eat and to drink. Not to do just one.

Intercession is the same on Earth as it is in Heaven. It is the same as asking a friend to pray for you. The only difference is that when you pray to Saints, you pray to people who are literally with God.

Ok it is said to be the same. I do understand the analogy you lay out. We ask for people to pray for us all the time. But how do we know that the saint are transcendent?

Indulgences are acts that bring us closer to God and show that we are sorry for what we did. These are things that help us to become holier people and in turn help us to reach Heaven faster (in a sense).

To me this makes it sound like the sacrifice on the Cross was insufficient.

Mary is the Mother of God. Through her yes, humanity has opened ourselves up to redemption. She has helped save us all. However, I would agree that some people take Marian devotion too far and do focus too much on Mary. We should respect and honor her for her yes to God and ask for her intercession, but don’t make her our main focus.

Yes it can. The fact that Co-Redemptrix is entertained makes my stomac churn. Yes she cooperated with God’s plan. Does Mary deserve honor? Absolutly. It just seems to me she has become focused on to much. Maybe I am imagining it. I don’t know.

Please, know that you are in our prayers and if you have any other questions, fell free to ask them here.

Thank you.

 

[workingman]

This is just my opinion, but the first two paragraphs of your blog seem to contain the reasons for your trouble with the Catholic Church.

The stuff at the end is the usual stuff we see.

Do you disagree with the moral theology of the Catholic Church? If so, you are not ready to be Catholic.

Best wishes to you and your family on your journey.

No the moral theology is not a issue for me at all. I practiced the moral theology as a Lutheran. I still struggle with my hardline Lutheran theology. Ready or not I am already there. It has been 2 years and I still wrestle with it.

 

[mark_a]

No the moral theology is not a issue for me at all. I practiced the moral theology as a Lutheran. I still struggle with my hardline Lutheran theology. Ready or not I am already there. It has been 2 years and I still wrestle with it.

Were you WELS?

 

[jmcrae]

To me this makes it sound like the sacrifice on the Cross was insufficient.

The sacrifice on the Cross fulfilled the Law. It paid the debt that we owed. To continue the banking analogy, with the Cross alone, we now have $0.00 in the “bank.” We are no longer in debt, but we also have no assets (virtues) of our own.

If we want to have some “spending money” in Heaven (graces), we now have to do some virtuous acts of our own, including Indulgences.

Yes it can. The fact that Co-Redemptrix is entertained makes my stomac churn. Yes she cooperated with God’s plan. Does Mary deserve honor? Absolutly. It just seems to me she has become focused on to much. Maybe I am imagining it. I don’t know.

Keep in mind that Jesus Himself focuses 10 times more of His attention on Mary than on anyone else - He lived with her for 30 years, but only spent 3 years with the disciples.

 

[Heuchler]

I understand that it all of it in one or the other. The problem I guess that realy bugs me is we were commanded to eat and to drink. Not to do just one.

Well, there is the fact that some people can’t consume alcohol because of medicine they are on. There is also the fact that someone else above pointed out that the priest meets the requirement for both to be received

Ok it is said to be the same. I do understand the analogy you lay out. We ask for people to pray for us all the time. But how do we know that the saint are transcendent?

**Well, we know that the saints hear our prayers because of the verse pointed out above from revelations. They are with God and we can contact them at any time (along with God himself) so I see it as fine.
**
To me this makes it sound like the sacrifice on the Cross was insufficient.

We never imply that it is insufficient. Indulgences and the crucifixion serve 2 different purposes. The Cross opens us up to Heaven and allow us to have a relationship with God. Indulgences are for when we sin. Sin leaves a mark on us. Indulgences help to fix our soul and the same relationship the cross opened us up to. The Cross isn’t a once saved always saved thing. It opens us up to God and leaves our salvation in our hands. We can choose. When we sin, we make the wrong choice and it leaves a mark. Indulgences and purgatory help to clean us up and make us better for when we meet God.

Yes it can. The fact that Co-Redemptrix is entertained makes my stomac churn. Yes she cooperated with God’s plan. Does Mary deserve honor? Absolutly. It just seems to me she has become focused on to much. Maybe I am imagining it. I don’t know.

I agree completely.
.

 

[workingman]

Samuel63;8185065]I wanted to offer two points. The visible catholic church you see in the press, and on TV, is only part of the real Church. This visible church has a lot of people at the bishop and priest level that are not so great. Our pope however is a truly great man and a genious by almost any standard. The point is, do not let scandals in the media and lack of faith at your local parish push you to despair. This is what the evil one wants to happen.

Yes the church is comprised of sinner and saint alike. I do agree our pope is a very intelligent man. The press does not bother men. Let them yammer. The local parish can drive me bonkers. That is at any local parish/church. Politics of it can suck.

Second, if you look closely at how civilization is progressing, or rather regressing in some areas, it can be helped along by only one institution - the catholic church. For example, many countries are aborting and contracepting to a degree, that in only 25 years, they will be facing a rapid spiral of population decline. The catholic church is the only voice in this wilderness that is even saying abortion and contraception are wrong. You have to conclude, there is something different about this organization. It is on the right side of the issue and all alone in its position. This is not a group you want to leave without serious consideration.

Yes moral issues the church stands correct. It is some of the theological issues for me that keep creeping up. I would think that after two years or so it would be settled for me yet still I battle.

OK, one more point. If your local parish is like mine, it is run by Sister Liberal and Ms. Ecumenical, and Mrs. Social Justice, and Mrs. Creative Liturgist. It is a liberal church nightmare. I have not left because the eucharis is concecrated there and the drive is short. I get fed elsewhere though. I keep tabs on the liturgical abuse and write about it to Rome. In short, if your local parish is a disaster and has no redeeming social dimension, welcome to the club. Learn the faith together as a family at home and grow in holiness in the domestic church - your very own family.

Yup sounds like my parish. As I got involved with my parish it surpirsed me as it is a country parish. I agree learn the faith together at home is a good idea. I sometimes doubt my ability as the same issues for me keep creeping up.

 

[workingman]

Have faith my good man! You are in the Church that Christ Himself established, so be patient and pray for understanding of these doctrines you are struggling with. You say you are new to the Church, well this is the time that Satan is going to attack you, before you have learned the faith fully and are susceptible to these issues.

Remember the parable of the seed thrown on the ground. Some fell on rocky soil. It grew quickly, but the roots were shallow and when the heat of day hit them, they dried up and withered away. Work to deepen your roots.

As to your questions:

1. flawed explanation of Transubstantiation
2. communing under one species (bread only or bread and wine)
3. prayers (intercessory) of the saints
4. indulgences
5. Mary as Co-Redemptrix.
6. What exactly is the issue with the explanation? Can’t really respond until it has been expounded some. But some food for thought. Even in the Bible, people would see a miracle right before their eyes, and still wouldn’t believe. We witness maybe THE greatest miracle of all time at every Mass. But we won’t see unless we believe. Jesus is God of all the universe, and created EVERYTHING. He can certainly turn bread and wine into His Body and Blood.
7. This one was never an issue for me. I always understood in that you cannot split Christ. You receive the totality of Him under either species. The priest fulfills the requirement to receive for everyone at Mass when he receives under both.
8. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful. Scripture says so. And Revelations specifically says that the saints in Heaven take our prayers to the altar in Heaven.
9. Others can give more responses on indulgences, but this for me falls under the Church’s authority that “whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven”. The SELLING of indulgences is an abhorrent sin, but granting indulgences is not.
10. Mary is not Co-Redemtrix in that she has any power on her own, it only points to how perfectly she aligned herself with God to do His will. And by doing so, she became the Ark of the New Covenant and brought forth God Himself to earth to begin His ministry and ultimately fulfill His plan to save us.

Thankyou for your points. I am in the process of writing them. I guess I am a stickler for making sure I have them how I want them. Sometimes I answere my own questions.

 

[workingman]

Were you WELS?

No I was LCMS.

 

[workingman]

jmcrae;8185291]The sacrifice on the Cross fulfilled the Law. It paid the debt that we owed. To continue the banking analogy, with the Cross alone, we now have $0.00 in the “bank.” We are no longer in debt, but we also have no assets (virtues) of our own.

If we want to have some “spending money” in Heaven (graces), we now have to do some virtuous acts of our own, including Indulgences.

Ok we have $0.00 after Christ paid our debt so we are no longer in the red so to speak. Now what posible virtues can a wretched miserable black harted sinner possibly offer to God for graces? None God does not need me I need Him. Any good work done is not of me but of God through me.

Keep in mind that Jesus Himself focuses 10 times more of His attention on Mary than on anyone else - He lived with her for 30 years, but only spent 3 years with the disciples.

OK what are you getting at?

 

[fred_conty]

Hi,
Transubstantiation is nothing more than what Christ said.
What He said to the crowd was, “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood…”
What He said to his apostles was, "Take and eat all of you for this is my flesh…
That is transubstantiation, THE change.
St. Paul says when we receive, it is a “participation” in the Body and Blood.

I haven’t seen any church in our diocese that dosen’t offer both the Body and Blood at
Mass.
Before Vatican II, no church offered the Precious Blood.

Isn’t Christ really fully present in the Body? Or is He only half present? If He isn’t all
present, how could it really be Christ? Are we saying we must receive the both
halves to receive the real Christ? So I am never receiving Christ since I partake of one
and then the other and never together? Did’nt Jesus at the last supper give one to the
apostles. Then after they received, He gave the other to them? Seperately.

After Mass is over, the priest has the remaining consecrated bread, the Eucharist, put away in the golden tabernacle in the church. These consecrated Hosts, the Eucharist, are carried to the sick in their homes. The sick are not given the Precious Blood,
but only the Precious Body. Where Christ is, He is there wholly, in Person.
Would the sick not be receiving Christ because only His Body is given to them?

But where there is flesh there is also blood.

For example, there is a story of a man in need to borrow money.
He went to his friends and they refused.
He then went to his enemy and he agreed on one condition.
That if he did not repay the debt on time, that he was entitled to anything
he requested of him. It was agreed.
Needless to say, the man did not have the money to fulfill the debt on time.
The enemy said, then what I want is a pound of your flesh.
The debtor told him he could have a pound of his flesh,
but that he could not have one drop of his blood.​

“bread of heave feed me till I want no more” hymn

 

[jmcrae]

Ok we have $0.00 after Christ paid our debt so we are no longer in the red so to speak. Now what posible virtues can a wretched miserable black harted sinner possibly offer to God for graces? None God does not need me I need Him. Any good work done is not of me but of God through me.

Actually, you are not a “miserable wretch” and it is an insult to God (though obviously not intended as such) to suggest that He created garbage. You are God’s Creature, and as such, you are good. Our good deeds are like the beautiful gifts that children give to their parents - they may look like junk to strangers, and even to the child, but to the parent, they look like what a child’s whole heart and soul of love looks like - and thus, are beautiful.

OK what are you getting at?

Mary is more important to Jesus than any other human being. Yes, she is a human being, but we are not her equals - she is not “the same as” everyone else… She is the human being for whom the world and all of Heaven was created. She alone was born without sin and remained without sin for her whole life, without being God. She is the Queen of Heaven.

Therefore, it is fitting and right to give her honour.

After all, when other human beings accomplish such things as being the fastest person in the world, or being the President of the United States, or even being the Queen of England, we give them honour - we raise them up on pedestals and dress them in gold and beautiful clothes.

So, why is it such a bad thing to give even greater honour to the one person who did what no other human being has ever done - lived her entire life without ever committing so much as a venial sin? Jesus Himself made her the Queen of Heaven by being born from her womb (since the mother of the King is always the Queen).

 

[workingman]

Well, there is the fact that some people can’t consume alcohol because of medicine they are on. There is also the fact that someone else above pointed out that the priest meets the requirement for both to be received

For me that is a moot point. It is the blood of Christ. I do not see how that little bit is even possible to inter fear. I could be wrong though. I watched our alcoholic (trough treatment) in the LCMS commune in bolth every Sunday without a problem.

Well, we know that the saints hear our prayers because of the verse pointed out above from revelations. They are with God and we can contact them at any time (along with God himself) so I see it as fine.

I have to find the part of Revelations being talked about as it was not mentioned. This will take further reading for me.

We never imply that it is insufficient. Indulgences and the crucifixion serve 2 different purposes. The Cross opens us up to Heaven and allow us to have a relationship with God. Indulgences are for when we sin. Sin leaves a mark on us. Indulgences help to fix our soul and the same relationship the cross opened us up to. The Cross isn’t a once saved always saved thing. It opens us up to God and leaves our salvation in our hands. We can choose. When we sin, we make the wrong choice and it leaves a mark. Indulgences and purgatory help to clean us up and make us better for when we meet God.

The cross took our sins (See doctorin of Original Sin). Yes it also opens up heaven and a relationship with our Lord. I thought that is what confession was for.? We have free will to a point. I see it as more of a muted will. It depends on how one defines free will.

 

[workingman]

jmcrae;8185456]Actually, you are not a “miserable wretch” and it is an insult to God (though obviously not intended as such) to suggest that He created garbage. You are God’s Creature, and as such, you are good. Our good deeds are like the beautiful gifts that children give to their parents - they may look like junk to strangers, and even to the child, but to the parent, they look like what a child’s whole heart and soul of love looks like - and thus, are beautiful.

Ok let me go over why I say that. Man was created in God’s immage (perfect). Now man is duped into breaking God’s command (eating of the forbidden fruit). Now all man is born into sin (see doctrine of Original Sin). So when we are born we are tainted. Hence the purpose of baptism. Baptism- It gives the forgiveness of sins, redeems from death and the
Devil, gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, just as God’s words and promises declare. This is the only way to look clean to God- the Old Adam in us should by daily sorrow and repentance be drowned and die with all sins and evil desires, and that a new man should daily come out and arise to live before God in righteousness and purity forever.
My good works are done by God through me.

Mary is more important to Jesus than any other human being. Yes, she is a human being, but we are not her equals - she is not “the same as” everyone else… She is the human being for whom the world and all of Heaven was created. She alone was born without sin and remained without sin for her whole life, without being God. She is the Queen of Heaven.

Therefore, it is fitting and right to give her honour.

After all, when other human beings accomplish such things as being the fastest person in the world, or being the President of the United States, or even being the Queen of England, we give them honour - we raise them up on pedestals and dress them in gold and beautiful clothes.

So, why is it such a bad thing to give even greater honour to the one person who did what no other human being has ever done - lived her entire life without ever committing so much as a venial sin? Jesus Himself made her the Queen of Heaven by being born from her womb (since the mother of the King is always the Queen).

I will come back to this. I for some reason am starting to feel combative and this is not a good thing. Need to take a break. God bless.