Questioning the Catholic Church

[JKirkLVNV]

To me this makes it sound like the sacrifice on the Cross was insufficient.

I don’t know if I can help you with indulgences and purgatory, but I’ll try. The Holy One’s Sacrifice on Calvary paid the price/atoned for all sin and removed the punishment of eternal damnation (seperation from God). It does not remove the temporal punishment or the realities that go with our sin. An alchoholic is forgiven, but God doesn’t wave a wand and make the cravings or difficulties go away. A father who abandons his children can be forgiven, but what he did will have repercussions even after forgiveness. God’s justice is that God doesn’t bail us out, generally (sometimes He performs a miracle, ie, a miracle that cures psirosis of the liver, for example), but that cannot be presumed upon. God’s Grace, of course, enables us to pick up our cross (the alcoholic’s cross, the drug addict’s cross, the ex-prostitute’s cross, the thief’s cross, the murder’s cross, whatever) and that Grace and Mercy move in perfect consort with His Justice. It’s like that axiom in physics: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, that must play through. We must suffer through our cross, redemptively bear the consequences of what we’ve done. If we’re not done, if God’s justice hasn’t “worked out” at the time of our death, but if we die in His friendship (not in a state of mortal, grace-killing sin), then our purgation continues until we’re made fit to stand in His Presence. The Church, drawing on the infinitely abundant treasury of the merits of Our Lord and the Saints, extends mercy to us through partial and plenary indulgences, which draw our mind to the Holy One, loosen our attachment to sins, and, by His Mercy and Grace, allow His Justice to be satisfied.

Further: I struggled with a some aspects of Catholicism, but I eventually found comfort in this thought: I can NEVER know more than Christ’s Church. I can never know more than the Church He founded, the Church to Whom He promised the authority to bind and loose, the Church to Whom He promised the Holy Spirit Who would lead that Church into all Truth. My doubts cannot stand against Her any more than the gates of hell.

God be with you. Be at peace.

 

[Incomplete]

When you say that things Catholicism teaches are against Scripture, bear in mind that it is only against your personal interpretation of Scripture. It is good to seek answers, but always remember that the Church has 2000 years of theology with many truly great thinkers. While you are seeking answers, remember that these people did not see the teachings as being against Scripture.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

When you say that things Catholicism teaches are against Scripture, bear in mind that it is only against your personal interpretation of Scripture. It is good to seek answers, but always remember that the Church has 2000 years of theology with many truly great thinkers. While you are seeking answers, remember that these people did not see the teachings as being against Scripture.

Also, the Scriptures rise out of the Church, not vice-versa. The Church CAUSES the Scriptures and no effect can be greater than its cause.

 

[Kelley_Green]

I am so tired of feeling like a tug o war is being plaid with me. Is it bad when you sit and debait your self from bolth sides of the fence?

I read both your links but I really don’t understand why it is you’re torn. What is your conscience saying to you about both sides of debate?

I’m a cradle Catholic but something that’s always bothered me is all the technicalities of all churches-- Jesus didn’t speak that way. Somehow all who heard him understood in simplicity. Even children understand on a rudimentary level. Yes, his teachings were very deep and invited all to contemplate about what was said, but… when so many theological add ons & prechewed conclusions get piled onto it, the message gets lost in white noise of arguments. Go back to gospel for a while. You’ll get your bearings back and can return to consideration of the rest with fresh eyes. It’s the best remedy I know.

 

[gtrenewed]

Well as I promised I started writing some of my sticking points. Links below.

theworkingmansthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/transubstantiation/

theworkingmansthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/communing-under-one-species/

The problem you’re having sounds similar to what I experience. When I read Scripture I come away with a certain understanding about what I have read. Sometimes it differs from Catholic practice.

Also, it seems to me that your problem in defining the problem is that you are having issues, not only with the leaves but also with the tree. Every Catholic has issues with some practice or another (the leaves) but are certain that the Catholic church (the tree) is rooted in Jesus and the Apostles. You must answer that first.

I say to myself, where else am I going to go to worship? I have been other places and everyone has issues. I try to understand how the first church acted out the teachings of the apostles. To me, the mass was the first church’s worship and only the Catholic and Orthodox have the mass. Because of the mass and I wasn’t born into the Orthodox, I’ll stay despite some really questionable practices, at least how I see them now.

Since we are on a journey and according to St. Paul, “we look through a glass dimly”, I can learn as I go. If I understand differently from church teaching, I have the luxury of being inside the ark… I can disagree on how the ark was built or with some of its features but it is bigger than me and carrying me safely along.

You ask why the real presence needs to be explained. Because we are curious and need answers. “Why”, is probably the most asked question of God. “How”, is probably the next. I don’t feel comfortable with eucharistic adoration. To me it reminds me of the old testament example of Israel worshipping the bronze serpent Moses used to heal them at one time. With that said, I am not forced to do that and since the church stands behind it, I won’t leave because of it and I won’t try to dissuade anyone from worshipping that way.

For years I have wondered why the church only offered the bread and not the cup. Now I wonder why they don’t put more wine in the cup. Sometimes when I get to it there is so little left, I wonder how much is spit and how much is wine. At those times I am happy that the host is complete so I can pass it by.

Questioning is not the issue to me, it is ok since that is how we learn. Questioning is not disobedience, it helps us obey more solidly. Once you have answered the question, “is this the church that Jesus handed to the Apostles and the church that the Apostles handed down”, you can only become a truer believer in the kingdom of God by asking and learning.

If you are solid that the Catholic church is the tree Jesus intended then you’re not torn back and forth while asking questions.

 

[jmcrae]

If this is what indulgences are then that’s a great thing… Indulgences still have bothered me quite a bit… I was wondering though because I’ve seen indulgences that have little notes attached to them saying “say this prayer and get 300 days out of purgatory.” I never could stomach these sort of notes. It just makes salvation seem like something you buy in a grocery market with coupons, etc. Is it ok to ignore these sort of things and just see indulgences in the way you described them?

Yes.

The “300 days” doesn’t refer to time in Purgatory, but rather, to the length of penances that were given in the Early Church - for example, someone could be sentenced to 300 days of living as a homeless person, begging in the streets. The action described in the Indulgence would be in replacement of the 300 days of homelessness and street begging - it has nothing to do with time off of Purgatory.

It is precisely because of this sort of confusion that we no longer use those terms.

 

[workingman]

I read both your links but I really don’t understand why it is you’re torn. What is your conscience saying to you about both sides of debate?

I’m a cradle Catholic but something that’s always bothered me is all the technicalities of all churches-- Jesus didn’t speak that way. Somehow all who heard him understood in simplicity. Even children understand on a rudimentary level. Yes, his teachings were very deep and invited all to contemplate about what was said, but… when so many theological add ons & prechewed conclusions get piled onto it, the message gets lost in white noise of arguments. Go back to gospel for a while. You’ll get your bearings back and can return to consideration of the rest with fresh eyes. It’s the best remedy I know.

Well I don’t fully understand why I am torn. It is really annoying. I feel like I’m a crazy person theologicaly speaking. Really some of the stuff is not far off base to beginn with.

That is just it the Gospels read so simply. They really are not that complex. Maybe that is my whole problem. Thankyou for the advise.

 

[catholicgirl08]

Hi!

I hope it is ok to post–I didn’t get a chance to read all the threads. I was thinking maybe you are torn because there is no perfect church. The Catholic Church isn’t perfect and none of the other churches are either because it is human beings that run them–and they sometimes make mistakes. I think we always have to be using our own minds to come to conclusions and always have to be thinking for ourselves. I don’t think we ever want to be blindly following a church without questioning things.

I chose to be Catholic because to me it is the most right. But that doesn’t mean I think everything they do is right or that the leaders have absolutely no faults.

Which church most agrees with what you believe in your heart and your mind? Pick that church–but know that you don’t have to agree with absolutely everything they do.

 

[workingman]

Hi!

I hope it is ok to post–I didn’t get a chance to read all the threads. I was thinking maybe you are torn because there is no perfect church. The Catholic Church isn’t perfect and none of the other churches are either because it is human beings that run them–and they sometimes make mistakes. I think we always have to be using our own minds to come to conclusions and always have to be thinking for ourselves. I don’t think we ever want to be blindly following a church without questioning things.

I chose to be Catholic because to me it is the most right. But that doesn’t mean I think everything they do is right or that the leaders have absolutely no faults.

Which church most agrees with what you believe in your heart and your mind? Pick that church–but know that you don’t have to agree with absolutely everything they do.

Hello, by all means post away. Yes that is most true no perfect church exists. Got to love sinful man at the helm. God will guid me where He wants me. It will not be my choosing but His. Not my will but God’s will be done. If God wishes me to remain in the Catholic Church I will. If not I will go where God leads me. Thank you for the thoughts and (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Incomplete]

Hello, by all means post away. Yes that is most true no perfect church exists. Got to love sinful man at the helm. God will guid me where He wants me. It will not be my choosing but His. Not my will but God’s will be done. If God wishes me to remain in the Catholic Church I will. If not I will go where God leads me. Thank you for the thoughts and (name removed by moderator)ut.

But how will you know where He is leading you? I’m assuming you felt He led you to Catholicism, but now you’re thinking of leaving. How will you know in the future?

One other thing to consider: We know in the Bible that Jesus established a Church. If the claims of the Catholic church are true, that this is the Church Christ established, why would He want anybody to be elsewhere? Remember that He prayed for unity.

You have also commented on how easy Scripture is to interpret. I just have to say a couple of things about that. One, there is a passage in Scripture itself that speaks of the difficulty of some passages. Two, if it is so easy, why are there so many, many disagreements about interpretation?

 

[workingman]

Incomplete;8197928]But how will you know where He is leading you? I’m assuming you felt He led you to Catholicism, but now you’re thinking of leaving. How will you know in the future?

I don’t. I trust my shepherd. I am doing more questioning than thinking of leaving. There is a big difference. This is not a ship to jump off willy nilly.

One other thing to consider: We know in the Bible that Jesus established a Church. If the claims of the Catholic church are true, that this is the Church Christ established, why would He want anybody to be elsewhere? Remember that He prayed for unity.

Yes, Jesus did establish a church. As to why he would want anybody elsewhere that I could not answer. I could not think of a logical reason. But what we follow is faith not logic.

You have also commented on how easy Scripture is to interpret. I just have to say a couple of things about that. One, there is a passage in Scripture itself that speaks of the difficulty of some passages. Two, if it is so easy, why are there so many, many disagreements about interpretation?

I did not use the word interpret. It is easy to understand. There is a diference in understanding and interpreting. One has to watch context. What passage are you refering to? The reason I can see for disagreements would be they do not want to fit what Christ was teaching. They want Christ to conform to their teachings.

 

[Veridical16]

Hi!

I hope it is ok to post–I didn’t get a chance to read all the threads. I was thinking maybe you are torn because there is no perfect church. The Catholic Church isn’t perfect and none of the other churches are either because it is human beings that run them–and they sometimes make mistakes. I think we always have to be using our own minds to come to conclusions and always have to be thinking for ourselves. I don’t think we ever want to be blindly following a church without questioning things.

I chose to be Catholic because to me it is the most right. But that doesn’t mean I think everything they do is right or that the leaders have absolutely no faults.

Which church most agrees with what you believe in your heart and your mind? Pick that church–but know that you don’t have to agree with absolutely everything they do.

Hi Catholic girl,

It is good to acknowledge that imperfect men are in the Catholic Church and the Clergy.

The VINE of the Church’s mystical body is perfect however!

As Christ the Invisible Head and his will working within others within our ship of souls, IS perfect …

The Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, may have an imperfect garden with weeds on the outside, but past the walls and the gargoyles, which God has dominion over too, and permits evil to happen…there is breathtaking beauty at the core of the Church. The core, the teaching, it’s all there for those willing to stumble upon the continuity that occurred after Pentecost, of God’s will working within the apostles, do you think the faith and the visible witnesses just stopped as if everything consolidated, or did it keep having to grow and be pruned, and keep growing again by the Lord’s will???

Once you have the supernatural virtue of Faith, the ethereal beauty is revealed. It’s very inspiring…and then when you see people from all backgrounds attack the Church, regarding saints, miracles , images, to everything, you understand and at the same time are heartbroken. It’s like when Jesus in the gospels is accused of eating with sinners, or casting out devils because by way of Beelzebub…the Church as a body, gets attacked as well…As Catholics we can’t forget the supernatural aspects to the Holy Mother Church & the Mystical Body. And if you look for God in the details, how he has preserved us, and historically outside the Church, bad things happen in regard to faith. . . that is a starting point.

And then in spite of it all, even though we don’t deserve it, we have the Blessed Sacrament & Our Lady.

Also I say this in a friendly manner, to some of the comments of, be careful when talking about why YOU chose the Catholic Church as if it is choosing a location that is pleasing in real estate. Christ chooses all of us, we don’t choose him. We , by faith, open our hearts to what he wills. John 15:15-17

Sometimes I’m guilty of it too, in the past, “well I decided I was, after understanding this or that” and I was like wait a minute, on second thought, i can’t really pin-point when I became more fervent and truly believing; Faith is given by God. I’m capable of using reason of course to defend the Faith, but I no longer attribute it as if I determined this or that as something to choose. It’s just knowing.

St. Justin Martyr is a good example for Catholics to look to in his certitude.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Yes.

The “300 days” doesn’t refer to time in Purgatory, but rather, to the length of penances that were given in the Early Church - for example, someone could be sentenced to 300 days of living as a homeless person, begging in the streets. The action described in the Indulgence would be in replacement of the 300 days of homelessness and street begging - it has nothing to do with time off of Purgatory.

It is precisely because of this sort of confusion that we no longer use those terms.

Wow. Thanks so much for clearing that up.

 

[catholicgirl08]

Hi!

Thanks for your post Veridical16 --I think you pretty much said what I was trying to say. I believe what the church teaches but I do get upset at some of the things I hear our leaders doing.

As far as me choosing the church. I never meant to imply it wasn’t ultimately God’s decision. What I was thinking of was confirmation–we choose instead of our parents. But of course God guides us. The reason I say that I chose is because my father is another religion and he wished I would of chose his religion instead. I was baptised Catholic but I feel like it was a bigger decision at Confirmation for me to want to be Catholic then if both of my parents were Catholic.

Edited to say: Oh also I want to mention that my dad pretty much admits now that at one time his church sort of brain washed them. That is why I believe in always questioning things and never blindly following church leaders.

Hi Catholic girl,
Also I say this in a friendly manner, to some of the comments of, be careful when talking about why YOU chose the Catholic Church as if it is choosing a location that is pleasing in real estate. Christ chooses all of us, we don’t choose him. We , by faith, open our hearts to what he wills. John 15:15-17

 

[catholicgirl08]

Hi!

I also wanted to add that I do know the church is not real estate–it is the house of God.

 

[Incomplete]

I don’t. I trust my shepherd. I am doing more questioning than thinking of leaving. There is a big difference. This is not a ship to jump off willy nilly.

To trust your shepherd is one thing, but to know that you are hearing Him properly is another. What guidance do you use to know you are following His lead? For me, I am never sure. I can’t just go by feelings; satan can cause feelings. I am glad you are questioning rather than just jumping ship, and I can see by some of your responses that you truly are looking for answers.

Yes, Jesus did establish a church. As to why he would want anybody elsewhere that I could not answer. I could not think of a logical reason. But what we follow is faith not logic.

We follow both faith and logic. If not, we could believe in the tooth fairy. If you followed only faith, you wouldn’t be asking questions. Questions deal with logic.

I did not use the word interpret. It is easy to understand. There is a diference in understanding and interpreting. One has to watch context. What passage are you refering to? The reason I can see for disagreements would be they do not want to fit what Christ was teaching. They want Christ to conform to their teachings.

What is the difference between interpretation and understanding? You need context in either case. I’m not sure what you’re talking about in saying they are different.

The passage I am referring to is 2 Peter 3:16. It’s referring to some of Paul’s letters and says “In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.”

Maybe disagreements are because not al Scripture is easy to understand. Look at these threads; can you honestly say you think that everyone who sees some Scripture as meaning different things from you disagrees because they want Christ to conform to their teachings? I know you don’t actually feel that way, so there has to be some other reason for disagreements. Considering Scripture itself says it can be difficult, I’d opt for that as a reason.

 

[Incomplete]

Hi!

Which church most agrees with what you believe in your heart and your mind? Pick that church–but know that you don’t have to agree with absolutely everything they do.

The problem with this is that what you believe in your heart and your mind is not necessarily truth. Jesus said He was sending the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth.

Look for reasons to believe a Church has those truths, and that is the Church to join. Once you know what that Church is, then do your best to understand all of it’s truths.

 

[SnakeMauler]

I am questioning weather or not to stay in the Catholic Church. I have started writing about it in my blog. It is a little long in my opinion to put in a post on CAF. So I will put the link below. Help please this is tearing at me and my family.

theworkingmansthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/07/30/questioning-the-catholic-church/

If you go to www.scripturecatholic.com all your questions will be answered.

 

[LinuxUser]

I am questioning weather or not to stay in the Catholic Church. I have started writing about it in my blog. It is a little long in my opinion to put in a post on CAF. So I will put the link below. Help please this is tearing at me and my family.

theworkingmansthoughts.wordpress.com/2011/07/30/questioning-the-catholic-church/

I will pray. There is not a moment that goes by where I question my conversion

 

[catholicgirl08]

Hi!

I think I was trying to say the same thing you are–I just didn’t word it right. I agree that what you believe in your heart and mind is not necessarily truth so I shouldn’t have said it the way I did.

The problem with this is that what you believe in your heart and your mind is not necessarily truth. Jesus said He was sending the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth.

Look for reasons to believe a Church has those truths, and that is the Church to join. Once you know what that Church is, then do your best to understand all of it’s truths.