Questions about Catholics honoring Mary

[The_One_Duck]

Sorry I was meant to warn u that people get very emotional when questions are asked about Mary. I was banned for a month i think for asking the same questions in a more direct manner.

Some of them cannot discern an attack from a question which is a shame cos antagonizing responses are far from helpful and only serves to divide us.
You responded well but, just reiterate your position of questioning due to a lack of knowledge and try to ignore hostile posts.

Yes, I do see what you are saying. I will try to ask my questions more politely next time. I guess this is one of the things one misses when TYPING these kinds of questions: tone of voice as well as facial expressions. I can almost guarantee you that no one would have been offended by my comment if it had been a face to face discussion. I will do my best in the future, thank you very much for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[godisgood77]

To be fair, he wasn’t expressing discomfort, he’s asking if Catholics elevate Mary to the status of God. Also asking how Mary can be mediatrix. It’s a doctrinal question.

You can skip saying prayers all you want, but the Church still teaches that Mary is not God, that we do not worship her, and that she is our mediatrix with Christ, so your discomfort is irrelevant to the teaching of the Church and is a side issue.

Fair enough… Thanks.

Of course, you’re right, the Church certainly teaches that Mary is not God. The Church acknowledges that Marian devotion has fallen in to disorder at various times in Church history. In practice, some Catholics still misunderstand…

Relative to the mediatrix question… The Church does indeed allow the title mediatrix for Mary. However, it is yet undefined as to what that means from a doctrinal standpoint and is not a settled question… the idea of Mary as mediatrix really falls under devotion not doctrine. St John Henry Newman was very eloquent in articulating that devotions are specific for times and places and vary from place to place. Doctrine on the other hand is for all times and places.

 

[The_One_Duck]

Hi, I’m Catholic and am uncomfortable with these as well. Good news is that the Church allows great latitude on which devotional prayers you can use or none at all. I simply skip the Hail Holy Queen and Memorare… no harm no foul

@godisgood77, I would highly recommend you do research on this matter or read this or other threads, as it will help you strengthen your faith. I personally don’t think it is very wise to simply ignore these doctrines, and I mean absolutely no offense by this statement. Thanks to this website and the people on it, I can safely say that I now have better understanding of the Catholic faith.

 

[ThomasMT]

You have no need to apologize. Your question is perfectly valid, one that I struggle with myself. I don’t see how you could have presented it in a more respectful manner.

Words do matter, in how we offer our prayers. Even if we ourselves acknowledge their underlying intentions, it is understandable how they could be perceived differently by others. This is especially so for our children. For myself, I find sufficient satisfaction that all my prayers begin and end with the Sign of the Cross. That way I know that I acknowledge God first and foremost every single time.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It’s not anywhere has “huge” as it could be. Most Catholics–including myself–need to prayerfully read and re-read Vatican II’s teachings about Mary.

It suffered from being unfortunately discouraged in the post-Vatican II era. I was fortunate to have an old school mom who would push me to say the Rosary and encourage all kinds of other Marian devotions in the 1970s when apparently Mary “wasn’t cool”. Mary was such a presence in our home that I was blissfully unaware that some other Catholics weren’t into her. Our pastor during that era was also an older man and didn’t have any apparent issues with Mary; although he didn’t encourage the devotions to her as much as he could have at our church, he didn’t discourage them either.

Thankfully, Marian devotion is back in a big way.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

St John Henry Newman was very eloquent in articulating that devotions are specific for times and places and vary from place to place. Doctrine on the other hand is for all times and places.

St. John Henry Newman was of course correct.
St. John Henry Newman was also a converted Protestant who was already overcoming significant huge hurdles for someone of his English Anglican background to even become a Catholic, let alone embrace Marian devotion.
I tend to see a lot of Marian devotions as being “cultural Catholic” practices that are easier for people who grow up with them.
Although my father was a converted Baptist/ Methodist who didn’t become a Catholic till his late 30s, and he still had no problem with saying his Rosary every evening for years.

 

[ThomasMT]

I simply skip the Hail Holy Queen and Memorare… no harm no foul

It pains me to admit that, the Hail Holy Queen prayer, while beautiful, makes me wonder a bit. I have actually been wondering if the Rosary is valid, without it. I understand that the Fatima prayer is optional, but not sure about the former. Especially if I’m given the Rosary for penance.

 

[Cathoholic]

The_One_Duck . . .

Another thing I am confused on is co mediatrix. I am sure we can all agree that the Bible says there is one mediator between God and man and that mediator is Jesus. My understanding is that co mediatrix almost completely contradicts this teaching.

There is ONE mediator between God and Man–Jesus Christ.

1st TIMOTHY 2:5 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

The question is, HOW is that mediation carried out?

• By Jesus all alone ONLY?
• Or by Jesus Himself AND in and through us too?

1st TIMOTHY 2:1-5 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

What do you think here The_One_Duck?

Are we allowed to offer supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings for all men and pray for kings and other leaders?

If so that is mediation.

Or is THAT a sin?

How can we efficaciously mediate without falling into sin? Or at least without falling into error?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I have actually been wondering if the Rosary is valid, without it. I understand that the Fatima prayer is optional, but not sure about the former.

You can stop wondering because the Rosary is perfectly valid without the Hail Holy Queen. Venerable Fr. Patrick Peyton, the “Rosary Priest”, used to say the Sub Tuum Praesidium at that point in the Rosary instead. Other people say other things, or nothing at all.

The Dominican Rosary is defined as being 15 decades of Hail Marys separated by the 15 Our Fathers and accompanied by meditation on the Holy Mysteries. Usually a third part of the Rosary (5 decades) is considered sufficient to be considered “saying a Rosary” (e.g. for purposes of getting an indulgence). Everything else is an add-on.

(Corrections made to above paragraph that do not affect the point I was trying to make.)

 

[The_One_Duck]

It pains me to admit that, the Hail Holy Queen prayer, while beautiful, makes me wonder a bit. I have actually been wondering if the Rosary is valid, without it. I understand that the Fatima prayer is optional, but not sure about the former. Especially if I’m given the Rosary for penance.

What do you mean by “valid”? I believe that in every Marian apparition Mary almost BEGS us to pray the Rosary. If you are confused on if the Rosary is not a true prayer because it is not Biblical, I would argue that it is, in fact, Biblical as almost every prayer in the Rosary is found directly in the Bible, and it is important to note that the Rosary is essentially a meditation of Jesus’ life. What could be more Biblical than that?

 

[ThomasMT]

The Dominican Rosary is defined as being 5 decades of Hail Marys separated by the 5 Our Fathers. Everything else is an add-on.

Thank you for the clarity.

 

[ThomasMT]

I meant the valid completion of a full Rosary devotion without inclusion of the “Hail Holy Queen” prayer.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I clarified a little bit above because the full Rosary is considered the whole original 15 decades, but usually we are permitted to get the spiritual benefits like indulgences by just saying 5 decades, at least nowadays. I understand back in the days of Our Lady of Fatima, one was expected to say the whole 15, and the only reason the children were saying only 5 decades is because children were taught initially to just say 5 decades (A “turco” or a third, is how they referred to it) and then work up to doing the whole 15 as adults.

Of course other people in other places would say the Brigittine Rosary which was 18 decades (3 sets of 6) or the Franciscan Crown (7 decades) etc.

 

[The_One_Duck]

I clarified a little bit above because the full Rosary is considered the whole original 15 decades, but usually we are permitted to get the spiritual benefits like indulgences by just saying 5 decades, at least nowadays. I understand back in the days of Our Lady of Fatima, one was expected to say the whole 15, and the only reason the children were saying only 5 decades is because children were taught initially to just say 5 decades (A “turco” or a third, is how they referred to it) and then work up to doing the whole 15 as adults.

Of course other people in other places would say the Brigittine Rosary which was 18 decades (3 sets of 6) or the Franciscan Crown (7 decades) etc.

Wow, you apparently know a lot about the Rosary, I did not know that the original Rosary was 15 decades. Where do you get this sort of information?

 

[ThomasMT]

Ah, yes… I forgot about indulgences. I’m assuming that as part if your earlier elaboration, they are still granted without the “add-on” as well.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m old and have been saying the Rosary, doing Marian devotions, and hearing about the Fatima children since I was about 5.
Also, I hang around this forum and other Catholic websites for a few years now, and go on pilgrimages, and read a lot.

I Mary, she and St. Joseph are my adopted parents since my real parents died. They and Jesus help me every day.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yes, the Manual of Indulgences specifically defines a “Marian Rosary” as what I told you: 15 decades of Hail Marys interspersed with 15 Our Fathers and accompanied by meditation on the Holy Mysteries, and they state that a third of it (5 decades) is sufficient for gaining a “Marian Rosary” indulgence.

That is how I knew the answer to your question

 

[ThomasMT]

I did not know that the original Rosary was 15 decades. Where do you get this sort of information?

15 decades for the 3 original mysteries as presented by the Blessed Mother herself. 150 Hail Mary, symbol of the 150 psalms that they take the place of. Main reason why I personally shy away from the Luminous Mysteries, as part of the Rosary.

 

[Cathoholic]

NOT 1st TIMOTHY 2:1-5 (Phantom Verse) 1 First of all, then, you people cannot make supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 Because if you try to do this, you will be trying to mediate between God and men. It is a terrible thing to try to do this mediation between God and men and totally unacceptable in the sight of God. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. So don’t you dare even think to try mediating in any sense.

The issue isn’t CAN WE “mediate between God and men”.
The issue is HOW does Jesus “mediate between God and men”.

That’s also WHY St. Peter can say we are “partakers” of the Divine nature.
That’s WHY St. Paul tells us we have a “participation” or a “koinonia” in Christ.
That’s part of what “grace” is (see CCC 1997). We are in intimate union “with the only son”.

So the issue is HOW does Jesus mediate between God and men,
NOT “Well can we please just mediate APART from Jesus Christ at least a little bit??”

(We cannot “mediate” apart from Christ in any sense.)

We cooperate with His grace.

Incidentally. Some examples of this concept of Christ at work IN US include Philippians 2:12-13, Philippians 4:13, Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 3:20-21, and Hebrews 13:20a, 21. Other verses that at least hint at the same thing include, Romans 8:8-11, 1st Thessalonians 2:13, Philippians 1:6, 1st Corinthians 9:1, 2nd Corinthians 6:1, 2nd Corinthians 9:8, John 9:4, and many others.

1st TIMOTHY 2:5 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

The Greek word for “one” here is “heis”.

“One” as in “one" mediator” or “heis" mediator”.

“Heis” allows for secondary mediation.

The Greek Word Heis and 1st Timothy 2:5

1st TIMOTHY 2:5 5 For there is one God, and there is one (heis) mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

The Greek word “monos” could have been used which would be more exclusive as a priest once told me.

But “monos” WASN’T used here in 1st Timothy 2:5.

“Heis” WAS used. “Heis” which ALLOWS for secondary mediation.

(By the way. Jesus working in and through His people does not cease when we are in Heaven.)

So in the above post, we saw contextually why persons not only can but should mediate and how the Holy Spirit (through St. Paul) calls this mediation “ good, and . . . acceptable in the sight of God our Savior ”.

And we saw in this post, the Greek word heis, of course matches the context.

To see once again what 1st TIMOTHY 2:1-5 REALLY says and in context,
please see the next post.

 

[Cathoholic]

1st TIMOTHY 2:1-5 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions , that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus