A
Angelos
Guest
Why are those phrases and words inserted into the text if the Koran is precise and concise. Why do translators combine what they understand or infer from the text with what is written in the original text?
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I
inJESUS
Guest
The Quran uses the verb “idreb” meaning beat/strike. If Allah had in mind something else, am sure he wouldn’t have run of words. The same verb is used in:
2:60 - “strike” the rock with thy staff…
2:73 - “strike” the body
4:34 - refuse to share their beds, “beat” them…
7:160 - “strike” the rock with thy staff…
8:12 - “smite” you above their necks…
8:12 - and “smite” all their finger tips off them…
the earliest Islamic scholars talked about beating, but added “lightly” according to a hadith.
2:60 - “strike” the rock with thy staff…
2:73 - “strike” the body
4:34 - refuse to share their beds, “beat” them…
7:160 - “strike” the rock with thy staff…
8:12 - “smite” you above their necks…
8:12 - and “smite” all their finger tips off them…
the earliest Islamic scholars talked about beating, but added “lightly” according to a hadith.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
There are other verses which use the same word… and a different meaning. At least according to my phonetic search. I found a number of verses which translate “yadribu” as setting forth an example (24:35, 47:3).
I’m not any good at that sort of an analysis but it seems to me that your argument inJESUS is merely circumstancial, and that there is contradictory evidence.
It is an authentic hadith, btw, by which the scholars clarified that verse. And more importantly, it is haraam (forbidden) for lay people to interpret it. I have only provided the interpretation which has been taught to me by scholars, and not my own. When lay Muslims or even non-Muslims try to interpret it, they’re setting themselves up for incorrect interpretation.
I’m not any good at that sort of an analysis but it seems to me that your argument inJESUS is merely circumstancial, and that there is contradictory evidence.
It is an authentic hadith, btw, by which the scholars clarified that verse. And more importantly, it is haraam (forbidden) for lay people to interpret it. I have only provided the interpretation which has been taught to me by scholars, and not my own. When lay Muslims or even non-Muslims try to interpret it, they’re setting themselves up for incorrect interpretation.
I
inJESUS
Guest
I
inJESUS
Guest
Sahih Muslim #2127:
…When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi’. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'Aisha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes.** He struck me on the chest which caused me pain**, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?…
Sahih Muslim #3506:
Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported: Abu Bakr came and sought permission to see Allah’s Messenger. He found people sitting at his door and none amongst them had been granted permission, but it was granted to Abu Bakr and he went in. Then came 'Umar and he sought permission and it was granted to him, and he found Allah’s Apostle sitting sad and silent with his wives around him. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: I would say something which would make the Holy Prophet laugh, so he said: Messenger of Allah, I wish you had seen (the treatment meted out to) the daughter of Kharija when she asked me some money, and I got up and slapped her on her neck. Allah’s Messenger laughed and said: They are around me as you see, asking for extra money. **Abu Bakr then got up went to 'Aisha and slapped her on the neck, and 'Umar stood up before Hafsa and slapped her **saying: You ask Allah’s Messenger which he does not possess. They said: By Allah, we do not ask Allah’s Messenger for anything he does not possess….
Bukhari volume 8, #828
Narrated Aisha: Abu Bakr came to towards me and struck me violently with his fist and said, “You have detained the people because of your necklace.” But I remained motionless as if I was dead lest I should awake Allah’s Apostle although that hit was very painful.
Hadith from Bukhari # 715
"Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah’s messenger came, Aisha said, “**I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! **When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, “By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this,” holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, “By Allah, O Allah’s messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa.” Allah’s messenger said to her, “If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you.” The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), “Are these your sons?” On that Abdur-Rahman said, “Yes.” The prophet said, “You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow.””
Muhammad did not reproach the man as all can see.
these are examples of Muslim women being beaten, slapped, struck with fists.
Beat her “lightly” or not, it is still a disgrace.
I find it strange, very strange that you Amy reject Paul’s admonitions to gentile women misbehaving in the church “as an insult to women” yet do not consider it an insult that men are allowed to beat/slap/strike women.
…When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi’. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'Aisha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes.** He struck me on the chest which caused me pain**, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?…
Sahih Muslim #3506:
Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported: Abu Bakr came and sought permission to see Allah’s Messenger. He found people sitting at his door and none amongst them had been granted permission, but it was granted to Abu Bakr and he went in. Then came 'Umar and he sought permission and it was granted to him, and he found Allah’s Apostle sitting sad and silent with his wives around him. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: I would say something which would make the Holy Prophet laugh, so he said: Messenger of Allah, I wish you had seen (the treatment meted out to) the daughter of Kharija when she asked me some money, and I got up and slapped her on her neck. Allah’s Messenger laughed and said: They are around me as you see, asking for extra money. **Abu Bakr then got up went to 'Aisha and slapped her on the neck, and 'Umar stood up before Hafsa and slapped her **saying: You ask Allah’s Messenger which he does not possess. They said: By Allah, we do not ask Allah’s Messenger for anything he does not possess….
Bukhari volume 8, #828
Narrated Aisha: Abu Bakr came to towards me and struck me violently with his fist and said, “You have detained the people because of your necklace.” But I remained motionless as if I was dead lest I should awake Allah’s Apostle although that hit was very painful.
Hadith from Bukhari # 715
"Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah’s messenger came, Aisha said, “**I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! **When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, “By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this,” holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, “By Allah, O Allah’s messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa.” Allah’s messenger said to her, “If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you.” The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), “Are these your sons?” On that Abdur-Rahman said, “Yes.” The prophet said, “You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow.””
Muhammad did not reproach the man as all can see.
these are examples of Muslim women being beaten, slapped, struck with fists.
Beat her “lightly” or not, it is still a disgrace.
I find it strange, very strange that you Amy reject Paul’s admonitions to gentile women misbehaving in the church “as an insult to women” yet do not consider it an insult that men are allowed to beat/slap/strike women.
B
Booklover
Guest
It is forbidden for lay people to interpret those texts and yet Islam is a religion for “people who think”??
What are those scholars afraid of?
Vickie
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Eh? Are you allowed to interpret the Bible and Sacred Traditions or do you have to go to school to do that? Are you allowed to say what is a sin or not according to the Catholic Church, or is that reserved for priests and such?
Is your religion one for people who don’t think, then?
Is your religion one for people who don’t think, then?
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Muhammad (saaws) did not reproach the man in public, no. inJESUS, I actually did talk to my sheikh about this, and have heard from other scholars as well, and I trust their opinion.
Muhammad (saaws) NEVER berated people in public for their private actions. NEVER. He was always gentle with them, and he would cover their faults. Just like a doctor has to cover the faults of his patients, so they can trust him, the Prophet Muhammad would not reproach people in public, so that they would not be disgraced in front of their peers.
This is simply good manners. Unless a sin was already exposed, there is no need to make it public, which makes it even worse.
Muhammad (saaws) NEVER berated people in public for their private actions. NEVER. He was always gentle with them, and he would cover their faults. Just like a doctor has to cover the faults of his patients, so they can trust him, the Prophet Muhammad would not reproach people in public, so that they would not be disgraced in front of their peers.
This is simply good manners. Unless a sin was already exposed, there is no need to make it public, which makes it even worse.
I
inJESUS
Guest
we have authority. We can have our own opinions but not doctrines. Who do you refer to when you got a question? a sheikh. What if you consult another sheikh who tells you the opposite?
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
I can have my own opinions but that doesn’t make them correct or valid Islamically. In Islam, a person needs proof. Evidence for what they say.
If I go to two sheikhs with different answers, and both have proof, then I pick whichever is easiest for me.
And that is valid–you might know the hadith, do you? About the Companions who went to Bani Quraydhah and Muhammad (saaws) told them not to pray 'asr until they arrived, but the 'asr came in before they got there? Two different opinions about their praying of 'asr, but both were valid, as both had proof. If two opinions are valid it’s better to pick the easier one. Muhammad (saaws) himself would always take the easier option so long as it was permissible.
I
inJESUS
Guest
B
Booklover
Guest
Is using a tu quoque your answer? People read the Bible all the time and come up with their own conclusions, that’s why we have so many denominations, but that’s not the point is it? The point is “forbidding” anyone from studying the texts as you’ve stated. Sounds like they’ve got something to hide.
Vickie
I
inJESUS
Guest
I can have my own opinions but that doesn’t make them correct or valid Islamically. In Islam, a person needs proof
. Evidence for what they say.
logically.
If I go to two sheikhs with different answers, and both have proof, then I pick whichever is easiest for me.
I
inJESUS
Guest
Let us summarize this argument Amy. The Quran and hadith both condone wife beating, but some hadith/interpretors say to beat her not severly, that is, without causing major damage or wounds. Fair enough?
I
inJESUS
Guest
the book is not that clear. You must refer to scholars’ interpretations as to when and how to beat women…if a man beats a woman contrary to how scholars define it, then he is a “bad Muslim”, unless his sheikh has a different opinion.
A
adstrinity
Guest
Alright, what is the significance of these hadiths? They are in the texts for a reason, what is that reason?
As much as I appreciate the counter arguements or added questions, please keep the questions text or doctrine related. Please do not make the arguements personal. Thank you.
Also, to the Muslims here, and to the prior Muslims, are/were you Suni or Shia…or neither? Is there a non-denom/hippy/all loving/as I want it version of Islam?
I
inJESUS
Guest
C
Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
D
dolphinlove
Guest
Its a syndrome amongst a lot of muslims, its called we cant think for ourselves, only live with what we are told
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