Questions about "the book of mormon is wrong" article from this website

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Lemuel said:
Mormon Doctrine, p. 472 “If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” — Bruce R. McConkie, 1966

John Taylor, the third Mormon president and “prophet” said basically the same thing. I didn’t bother to find that quote.
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Ahhh… Pure light in CAF!!
 
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Lemuel said:
Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is, “the most correct of any book on this Earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book.” I think it’s fair that if such a book would help draw a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than any other book, that such a book would certainly say something about the nature of God, would it not?

Mormons believe that:

God the Father has a body of flesh and bones.

God the Father was once a man on a planet like us.

God the Father became a God through righteous living in his previous mortality.

God the Father lives on a planet near the star named Kolob.

God the Father is eternally progressing.

That there are many Gods.

We can become Gods.

That God is married.

So, using only the Book of Mormon, can you please describe the nature of God for us, specifically these characteristics which seem unique to Mormonism?
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The Book of Mormon claims to contain the fulness of the Gospel, not the fulness of doctrine. In fact, the Book of Mormon specifically says that some doctrines were withheld specifically to try the faith of the people.

3 Nephi 26
8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he [Jesus] taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

I hope this helps…
 
Lemuel said:
You’re really putting yourself out there and quite frankly, what you seem to be implying with this scripture is treading on blasphemy. But, of course, Mormonites need justification for their worship of Brother Joe. But please take it somewhere else. We obviously don’t worship the same Jesus Christ as you do, nor do we want to. You really need to be trolling non Christian forums. I understand you’re having a hard time now that you’ve left the true Church of Christ and all you can do is keep looking back and try to justify your mortal mistake.
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As I have said to you before, Joseph Smith regularly acknowledged God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ as the source of the success of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The quote referenced is lifted out of context for the purpose of criticizing God’s church. The quote is also a secondhand account placed in Church History by a follower after Joseph Smith was killed by folks who claimed to be Christians. This is important for a few reasons. It is a single person report of what was said, and it was placed in the record after Joseph Smith was killed and the church was still surviving.

Here is some more context including St. Paul’s words which inspired whatever was said and whatever was recorded by a member of Christ’s Church mourning the murder of God’s prophet.

“In short, Joseph is using the scripture in Paul as a counter-argument (or a rhetorical device)–he is responding to his critics, and demonstrating that (as with Paul) true messengers from God are often persecuted by those who should listen, while the false and apostate are praised.”

It is unfortunate IMO that mocking words like “mormonite” and “brother Joe” are celebrated by being “liked” by 5 Catholics here.

As I frequently do, I suggest things should be different.

Charity, TOm
 
You have taken two out of the many passages that were provided to you regarding god being the only god and again, found a way to twist them into meaning something that supports your churches theology. You simply ignored the many other passages that directly address this as well as utilized your own context to make these two passages fit your narrative when they do not. They are very clear as are countless other passages in the Bible and again, the consistent historical teachings of the Jews and the Catholic Church. God even addresses this in the 10 commandments.( very clearly). I have provided a plethora of biblical proof as well as consistent church teaching on this matter.

Your verse provided in psalms is yet again taken out of context and interpreted to fit a belief that is simply not accurate. God is firm in his teachings and consistent in his teachings to the Jews and the early Christians that he alone is God and no other has come before or after. One can grab a verse in the Bible, interpret that as they see fit, and have it support a plethora of heresies if they want to.

One thing I don’t understand and truly am baffled by with Protestants and Mormons alike. Who are you (as in a group of believers) to simply ignore consistent teachings of the faith that were maintained for 1500 years and then create new ideas that are not consistent and you believe to be accurate? The Mormon church takes this a step further in claiming that the Jews, for 2000 years prior to Christ, had it wrong in believing in the one and only true god. How is it that for 4000 years Christians and Jews alike could have been completely wrong in their belief in one god? But somehow Joseph Smith got it right?
 
God the Father and His Son, Jesus are NOT the reason for anything regarding your church.
 
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Serious question…did the LDS originally deny being Christians and/or calling themselves Christians or as a branch of Christianity?

I so often see quotes of “gods” in the Bible being translated as the same as God. Lower case god was a Devine being lower than God such as angels, demons and transcendent beings…some of which were human first. Be careful in the definition of god(s). Capital G God was unique and One Alone.
 
Pattylt said:
Serious question…did the LDS originally deny being Christians and/or calling themselves Christians or as a branch of Christianity?
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They did. Very early the LDS placed themselves outside any Christian religion. It is only in recent decades that they have attempted to call themselves Christian. In my opinion this later “revelation” seems to be a result of wanting to blend in with the various Christian denominations.
 
gazelam said:
I’ll address these two as an example.

Isaiah43:10,11 — … before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me … … I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior

Isaiah44:6,8 — … I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God …

It’s important to look at the context used in the Old Testament. For example Isaiah 47:8-10 depicts the city of Babylon as saying:
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Quoting verses in a different chapter isn’t using the quotes “in context.”
gazelam said:
Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me ;
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These are arrogant words reserved for the one creator God. So they support the biblical teaching of one creator God.
gazelam said:
Psalms 82:1 God takes a stand in the divine council, gives judgment in the midst of the gods .
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God has taken his place in the divine council;

in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

“How long will you judge unjustly

and show partiality to the wicked?

Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;

maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.

Rescue the weak and the needy;

deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

They have neither knowledge nor understanding,

they walk about in darkness;

all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

I said, “You are gods,

sons of the Most High, all of you;

nevertheless, like men you shall die,

and fall like any prince.”

Arise, O God, judge the earth;

for you shall inherit all the nations!

Psalm 82

Christians are monotheists who, like Judaism, believes in one uncreated creator God. So if the Bible refers to gods in plural, we know they mean something different from the one uncreated creator. It is the rational conclusion. Mormons reject reason, so they find it difficult to see the obvious conclusion.
gazelam said:
For the third time, are you referring to creation ex-nihilo, or creation ex-materia?
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There is one only one creator; only one God. You seem to want to make a distinction without a difference.
 
ConcernedConvert said:
One thing I don’t understand and truly am baffled by with Protestants and Mormons alike. Who are you (as in a group of believers) to simply ignore consistent teachings of the faith that were maintained for 1500 years and then create new ideas that are not consistent and you believe to be accurate? The Mormon church takes this a step further in claiming that the Jews, for 2000 years prior to Christ, had it wrong in believing in the one and only true god. How is it that for 4000 years Christians and Jews alike could have been completely wrong in their belief in one god? But somehow Joseph Smith got it right?
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Three things all of which are true that you don’t recognize, but if ANY of them are true Catholicism is not.
  1. There is little “consistent teaching of the faith” for 1900 years that LDS don’t embrace. The modern Catholic Church has CHANGED doctrines radically. If you like I can go over doctrines changed by the men in charge of Catholicism and restored by God through Joseph Smith.
  2. Joseph Smith and the early Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints restored many ancient Christian teachings CHANGED over the years. The interlocking sophistication of these restorations is objective evidence of the truth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
  3. While 1 and 2 are true and you are mistaken when you claim consistency, it is clear to many (including non-LDS) that Joseph Smith could not have done all the things we have objective evidence he did. The best explanation for this objective evidence is that God was involved in the origins of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This means without 1 or 2 being true, I would be a LDS because of #3.
Now, I can demonstrate 1, 2, and/or 3. I will endeavor to do so, if someone is interested enough to engage respectfully. This will mean reading, responding, and likely defining what you believe clearly (I will do the same). I don’t need you to cease to believe false things so you or other posters can say I am wrong and I will not view that as interest in the objective evidence.
Charity, TOm
 
Horton said:
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Pattylt:
Serious question…did the LDS originally deny being Christians and/or calling themselves Christians or as a branch of Christianity?
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They did. Very early the LDS placed themselves outside any Christian religion. It is only in recent decades that they have attempted to call themselves Christian. In my opinion this later “revelation” seems to be a result of wanting to blend in with the various Christian denominations.
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You are mistaken.
Early Latter-day Saint leaders clearly considered themselves Christians, but condemned the hypocrisy of other Christians who persecuted the Saints
Charity, TOm
 
TOm, do you have any links to secular or non LDS sources. I’m sorry but Fairmormon is an apologetics site and thus I don’t completely trust it. I heard this claim from an LDS that left the church so I don’t completely trust her either even though she was extremely educated in LDS history.
Thanks.
 
Pattylt said:
TOm, do you have any links to secular or non LDS sources. I’m sorry but Fairmormon is an apologetics site and thus I don’t completely trust it. I heard this claim from an LDS that left the church so I don’t completely trust her either even though she was extremely educated in LDS history.
Thanks.
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…and the usual anti-Catholic clichés.
 
Pattylt said:
TOm, do you have any links to secular or non LDS sources. I’m sorry but Fairmormon is an apologetics site and thus I don’t completely trust it. I heard this claim from an LDS that left the church so I don’t completely trust her either even though she was extremely educated in LDS history.
Thanks.
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I doubt I will be able to find a non-LDS source that addresses the accuracy of Horton’s claim. If you follow the link you will find non-LDS sources referring to LDSs as Christians very early.
If I hadn’t read about Catholicism from Catholic Answers (even though I know they present falsehoods about my faith), I would be far behind where I am in my understanding. If you want to know you cannot rely on Horton and others!!!

Karl Keating said:
Now it may well be that a man leaving one religion for another can write fairly, without bitterness, about the one he left behind. But it stands to reason that most people who suddenly think they have an urge to write about their change of beliefs just want to vent their frustrations or justify their actions. Their books should be read and used with discretion, and they should not be used at all as explanations of the beliefs of their old religion if the books betray the least hint of rancor.

Charity, TOm
 
RebeccaJ said:
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Pattylt:
TOm, do you have any links to secular or non LDS sources. I’m sorry but Fairmormon is an apologetics site and thus I don’t completely trust it. I heard this claim from an LDS that left the church so I don’t completely trust her either even though she was extremely educated in LDS history.
Thanks.
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…and the usual anti-Catholic clichés.
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I saw nothing in the link that I thought was anti-Catholic.
All I saw was a refutation of Horton’s claim.
What did you see in the link that was anti-Catholic.
Charity, TOm
 
Two traditional historical excuses for anti-Catholicism – the Inquisition and the Crusades.
 
ConcernedConvert said:
You have taken two out of the many passages that were provided to you regarding god being the only god and again, found a way to twist them into meaning something that supports your churches theology. You simply ignored the many other passages that directly address this as well as utilized your own context to make these two passages fit your narrative when they do not.
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You’re killing me! The links you provided had perhaps 75 verses and I have neither the time (as much as I’d love to do CAF 24/7) nor space (3200 character limit per comment) to address them all. Here’s a verse that sums up the oneness of God: John 17:22

And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one

Jesus’s petition to His Father can’t be for the disciples to become consubstantial with each other (as Trinitarians claim the oneness of the Father and Son to be). Therefore, the oneness must be one of purpose and unity.
ConcernedConvert said:
One thing I don’t understand and truly am baffled by with Protestants and Mormons alike. Who are you (as in a group of believers) to simply ignore consistent teachings of the faith that were maintained for 1500 years and then create new ideas that are not consistent and you believe to be accurate? The Mormon church takes this a step further in claiming that the Jews, for 2000 years prior to Christ, had it wrong in believing in the one and only true god. How is it that for 4000 years Christians and Jews alike could have been completely wrong in their belief in one god? But somehow Joseph Smith got it right?
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Pennsylvania State University’s Baruch Halpern wrote, “Scholars have traditionally taken a theological and prescriptive approach to the issue of Israelite monotheism: monotheism is the conviction that only one god exists, and no others. This conviction, however, is difficult to document. … Monotheism, Yehezkel Kaufmann observed, postulates multiple deities, subordinated to the one. … Two elements distinguish it from polytheism: a conviction that the one controls the pantheon, and the idea of false gods.” (Baruch Halpern, “Monotheism,” The Oxford Companion to the Bible , edited by Bruce M. Metzger and Michael D. Coogan (New York: Oxford University Press, 1993), 524–525)
 
Tom, you say that there is little consistent teaching that the Mormon church Doesn’t embrace. However the entire foundation of the Mormon church Is completely inconsistent with Christians and Jews from the past four thousand years. If the foundation of your faith is that far off base from Christianity, how can anything else be considered consistent or legitimate?
(The LDS Church does not believe in monotheistic Christianity.) These are foundational teachings that go all the way back to the beginning in the Old Testament.

God is forever consistent in his word in both the Old Testament and the New Testament and leaves no room for polytheism. These are historical facts, Traditional Facts and biblical facts that have always been consistent.

I have provided and could continue to provide biblical and traditional proof of this from Protestant, Catholic or any other source for this matter.

Joseph Smith and his church cannot restore any of these teachings. These teachings have been and will always be consistently protected by the Catholic Church. He did not (restore) but created his own teachings based off of his personal opinions and interpretations. Unfortunately this practice of becoming ones own god and making the faith what an individual wants it to be continues today with a multitude of Protestant denominations.
 
Haha I feel you about the time constraints. I do all of my conversing from the phone throughout the day as I get breaks so it’s definitely a lot to try to keep up with.

However… lol
Again this verse is taken out of context. If you begin at the beginning of chapter 17 and read all the way through you will see that Christ clearly identifies that he and the father are one early in the chapter and then again in the last several verses of the chapter. ( He also clarifies early on in the chapter that god is the one true god fyi)

And about the Jews… are you really implying that the world has ever thought anything other than that the Jews were monotheistic? Just do a quick google search and you will find article after article, scripture after scripture that demonstrates that Jews were indeed monotheistic and suffered greatly for it either because of their disobedience to god in allowing false idol worship or by persecution from other groups of people for their beliefs… and no one other than the Mormon church really disputes that.
 
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