Questions about "the book of mormon is wrong" article from this website

[Lemuel]

I just basically lived in denial. It’s the easiest way to deal with things when you feel trapped in a cult.

Being a Mormon apologist has got to be one of the toughest jobs out there. It’s all about damage control.

 

[lilypadrees]

But, LDS prophets are not infallible concerning geography or anything for that matter, they just communicate with God and share His thoughts as best they can.

And what are “God’s thoughts,” according to your hierarchy? Because quite frankly, TOm, you had God’s thoughts and views, you had the Truth when you were Catholic.

The moment you left the Catholic Church and became a Mormon, you sold out to the thoughts and views of a con man who began his own religion by plagiarizing the Holy Bible and conning people into believing that the resulting book, the Book of Mormon, came from an angel named Moroni as “another testament of Jesus Christ.” It isn’t.

TOm, if a person leaves their Christian Church, whether Catholic or Protestant, and becomes a member of the Church of Joseph Smith aka the Mormon church, they have to dumb down the intelligence and understanding of Scripture they once had. They have to swallow all the errant teachings of your church and believe in a star called Kolob which is allegedly next to where God resides. They have to believe in men having their own kingdoms, being their own gods with their throngs of wives who’ve been married to them on earth and “sealed for time and eternity” in the Celestial Kingdom all living together with their spirit children for eternity. (Marriage ends at death, TOm.) They have to believe they can baptize their living in place of dead relatives. They must believe they’re continuing their ancestors work. (They aren’t. Their ancestors work stopped when those ancestors died.)

So many nonsensical things, TOm. You gave up the Truth for a bunch of lies! You turned your back on the REAL Jesus for the Mormon manufactured version. And you’re okay with this. Incredible.

 

[gazelam]

We believe that the apostles appointed bishops (overseers) to succeed their ministry and to continue to teach, evangelize, and preserve Christianity and defend its teachings, and that these bishops appointed new bishops, and this continued down to today.

This statement is just one big contradiction. The definition of “succession” is a replacement of something with something else of the same type (i.e., another apostle replaces or succeeds an apostle, or another bishop replaces or succeeds a bishop). You here are saying that succession involves replacing something of one kind (apostle) with something of another kind (bishop).

Please note that Paul said that apostles should continue on the Earth “until we all attain to the unity of faith” (Ephesians 4:11-13) There has not yet been a unity of faith on the Earth since Jesus established the primitive Christian church. Therefore His church should still be lead by apostles until said unity of faith is achieved.

We see the apostles select a replacement in Acts, and Paul selected Timothy and Titus and told them to select others. Early Christian writings from the first, second, and third centuries support this view of bishops and that they received their appointment down a line tracing its way back to the apostles, and that as a root for helping to identify correct teaching from incorrect (such as the gnostics).

Catholic scholars paint a very different picture. Jesuit Scholar Francis Sullivan states the following:

" No doubt proving that bishops were the successors of the apostles by divine institution would be easier if the New Testament clearly stated that before they died the apostles had appointed a single bishop to lead each of the churches they had founded. Likewise, it would have been very helpful had Clement, in writing to the Corinthians, said that the apostles had put one bishop in charge of each church and had arranged for a regular succession in that office. We would also be grateful to Ignatius of Antioch if he had spoken of himself not only as bishop, but as a successor to the apostles, and had explained how he understood that succession. Unfortunately, the documents available to us do not provide such help. " (Sullivan, From Apostles to Bishops, pg 223)

 

[gazelam]

The Book of Mormon contradicts many of the teachings and practices of the catholic faith. For me as a Catholic, the Book of Mormon is simply heretical teachings, teachings that point away from Christ and the church and the truth which he established. These truths that the Catholic Church has held onto and protected since the time of Christ.
Many of these teachings are simply personal ideas of Smith that are not supported biblically or through Tradition and history.

Which teachings from the Book of Mormon do you believe are “heretical” that point away from Christ, and/or are personal ideas of Joseph Smith? Thanks in advance!

 

[ConcernedConvert]

Here is a few. When I have more time I will try to provide a more detailed response.

https://ftc.co/resource-library/blog-entries/are-mormons-heretics

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

But, LDS prophets are not infallible concerning geography or anything for that matter, they just communicate with God and share His thoughts as best they can.

And what are “God’s thoughts,” according to your hierarchy? Because quite frankly, TOm, you had God’s thoughts and views, you had the Truth when you were Catholic.

The moment you left the Catholic Church and became a Mormon, you sold out to the thoughts and views of a con man who began his own religion by plagiarizing the Holy Bible and conning people into believing that the resulting book, the Book of Mormon, came from an angel named Moroni as “another testament of Jesus Christ.” It isn’t.

TOm, if a person leaves their Christian Church, whether Catholic or Protestant, and becomes a member of the Church of Joseph Smith aka the Mormon church, they have to dumb down the intelligence and understanding of Scripture they once had. They have to swallow all the errant teachings of your church and believe in a star called Kolob which is allegedly next to where God resides. They have to believe in men having their own kingdoms, being their own gods with their throngs of wives who’ve been married to them on earth and “sealed for time and eternity” in the Celestial Kingdom all living together with their spirit children for eternity. (Marriage ends at death, TOm.) They have to believe they can baptize their living in place of dead relatives. They must believe they’re continuing their ancestors work. (They aren’t. Their ancestors work stopped when those ancestors died.)

So many nonsensical things, TOm. You gave up the Truth for a bunch of lies! You turned your back on the REAL Jesus for the Mormon manufactured version. And you’re okay with this. Incredible.

Lily,
Fulton Sheen and Cardinal Newman both claim that your “so many nonsensical things” will be something of which true Christianity will be accused.
Some of these “nonsensical” things will be a product of the unwillingness of those criticizing God’s church to learn what Christians actually believe. Some of these “nonsensical” things will be a product of an extreme presentation designed to offend both Christian and non-Christian (this is most of your post). And some of the nonsensical" things will be true beliefs. Like the belief that a sinless Man died for the sins of all other men, or the belief that a Virgin gave birth.

Lily, I see no evidence that Catholics on this forum have a better understanding of the Bible or the CoJCoLDS than I do. I have been studying the Bible for many years and read Catholic, Protestant, and LDS scholars. What I see from Catholic is a VERY Catholic-centric view of the Bible. Often what I see from Catholic posters here is profound misunderstanding of what Catholic scholarship teaches concerning the Bible.

Your suggestion that I have given up solid Biblical truth for the “nonsensical” and that if I patterned my life after your understanding of the Bible and these issues I would be on much more solid ground sound “Incredible” to me.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Here is a few. When I have more time I will try to provide a more detailed response.

For the Church | Are Mormons Heretics?

That post is riddled with errors and is not really answering the question Gazalem asked.
Also, if you want to see the level of care taken when engaging a faith that is rejected by the author of your post, search for “Roman Catholicism” on his blog search function.

After you do this please prayerfully consider that perhaps not only is the author’s care in characterizing a faith he rejects lacking in rigor, but perhaps yours is too.

You and the author reject a faith you do not understand and it is evident in the things you say about my faith.
Charity, TOm

 

[ConcernedConvert]

I do not claim to know everything about your faith. Nor do I care too, and I don’t mean this in a rude or disrespectful way. But there are several tenants of your faith that right off the bat disqualify it. The article I shared above are some of the major disqualifiers that automatically rule out the Mormon church. Not to mention many of the distorted views of heaven or the afterlife that have never been supported historically or biblically.
I will address his question more specifically as I said when I have a chance. The article I shared just gave some generalizations as to the heresies of the Mormon church.
Again I do want to point out, that I don’t mean any of this in a rude way and I know that communicating through messages like this can often seem like that.

 

[ConcernedConvert]

I would also like to know what part of that article contained errors. Which of those teachings that you guys hold was portrayed incorrectly.

 

[TOmNossor]

I would also like to know what part of that article contained errors. Which of those teachings that you guys hold was portrayed incorrectly.

No you you would not “also like to know what part of that article contained errors.”
You already said:

I do not claim to know everything about your faith. Nor do I care too, and I don’t mean this in a rude or disrespectful way.

I suggested you look at the Catholic article because I didn’t think you really cared and thought perhaps if you look at how your chosen author speaks of your faith you might reconsider where you get your information. But, you don’t care.

Three more things.

1. I have regularly said that I am a LDS because of the CoJCoLDS while I could list problems with the Catholic Church unaddressed or poorly addressed by Catholic apologists for hours, I reject the Catholic Church because I am a LDS. I will not try to convince folks who are Catholic because of the strengths they see in Catholicism they are wrong. I respect that and I even consider it valid for committed Catholics to worship God and care little about anti-Mormonism (or pro-Morminism).
2. I would like to suggest that I have informed myself with the BEST Catholic scholarly material and the BEST LDS scholarly material and I VERY MUCH CARE that I understand both faiths well. So my conclusion that the CoJCoLDS is more likely (based on objective evidence only) to be God’s Church than the Catholic Church is well informed in ways that your lack of caring to get it right will never understand.
3. If there are folks who really want to explore errors in that post or this or that they may PM me. I think it would be a waste of time to show ConcernedConvert the errors.

I do not think you were overly rude. I hope you do not think I was overly rude. But, I think as much as you may not like #2 it is important to say.
Charity, TOm

 

[gazelam]

Here is a few. When I have more time I will try to provide a more detailed response.

For the Church | Are Mormons Heretics?

You: The Book of Mormon contradicts my Catholic faith.
Me: In what way?
You: Here’s a Baptist has said.

 

[TOmNossor]

ConcernedConvert:

Here is a few. When I have more time I will try to provide a more detailed response.

For the Church | Are Mormons Heretics?

You: The Book of Mormon contradicts my Catholic faith.
Me: In what way?
You: Here’s a Baptist has said.

And he is a Baptist whose anti-Catholicism I have choosen to inform myself about long ago. The author of that bit “doesn’t care” to get the faiths he speaks against right. A common problem IMO.

I am a LDS because of the strength associated with the objective evidence for our faith not because of the problems with the objective case for Catholicism.

But, I try very hard to understand the best possible pro-Catholic position (for a number of reasons), rather than some sloppy pile of half-truths.

Charity, TOm

 

[gazelam]

I would also like to know what part of that article contained errors. Which of those teachings that you guys hold was portrayed incorrectly.

I’ll see what I can do…

1. Jesus isn’t God.

False. Latter-day Saints believe Jesus to be a Divine Being.

2. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren’t equally one God.

False.
John 17:22 - And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one

2 Nephi 31:21 - And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen

3. God was created.

(Assuming here you mean “created ex-nihilo”, if you’re thinking “created ex-materia”, that’s a diffferent question) Latter-day Saints believe that The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, and each of us have existed forever in some form or another.

4. Christ’s atonement redeems everyone and grace is a reward for those who obey him.

This is probably an area where Latter-day Saints have more in common with Catholics than those Protestants who believe that once you accept Christ you’re eternal salvation is secure.

In a nutshell, Latter-day Saint believe we’ll receive Eternal Life if we repent of our sins and keep God’s commandments. Everyone is given some sort of grace in the sense that everyone will be physically resurrected and everyone has the opportunity to repent of their sins. (Don’t Catholics believe this too?) However, Latter-day Saints view Eternal Life as a gift, not a reward (in the sense that it is earned). The gift is given those who choose to follow Christ. We can’t pay the debt for our own sins. Only Christ can do that.

I hope this helps…

 

[Stephen168]

Here is a few. When I have more time I will try to provide a more detailed response.

The Book of Mormon was originally written by Christians, so I would be surprised if there was much heresy in it. It was changed as Joseph Smith rejected the Trinity. I think many of the unique Mormon beliefs were written in their scripture which turned out to an Egyptian funeral text; The Book of Abraham.

 

[TOmNossor]

ConcernedConvert:

Here is a few. When I have more time I will try to provide a more detailed response.

The Book of Mormon was originally written by Christians,

I agree, because the BOM is a divine document and God is Christian (in that He knows the truth of Christianity and would inspire a Christian book).
I suspect you have different Christians in mind which ones are those?
Charity, TOm

 

[ConcernedConvert]

I would like to know which part you consider errors, because if the claims that are made in that article are indeed true than our faiths are worlds apart. If they are not true I want to know that, but all of the research I’ve done has backed up what that article expresses.

 

[lilypadrees]

Re: #2, anyone who has to say that they’ve informed themselves with the BEST of (insert preference) clearly hasn’t.

Perhaps you need to research your chosen religion more thoroughly. Because it’s very clear that you have blinders on where your church is concerned.

 

[lilypadrees]

Unfortunately, TOm, you left true Christianity for the nonsensical things of Mormonism (which I’ve studied for many years). Again, I suggest you research your chosen religion with a fine tooth comb and an open to the Truth heart.

Sadly, you’re not the first Mormon whose ego revealed his true self. “I see no evidence that Catholics on this forum have a better understanding of the Bible or the CoJCoLDS than I do.”

If you had the “better understanding” you say you have, you wouldn’t brag about it. Your words would show that knowledge and understanding. If you have to say it, all you’re really doing is showing how insecure you really are in your position.

If you studied the Bible as much as you say you have, you wouldn’t misinterpret and misunderstand its contents the way you (and your fellow Mormons) do. You would have the same understanding that Christians, whether Catholic or Protestant, do.

 

[gazelam]

Interesting. Because Mormons don’t believe that all the apostles were killed. They believe that John the Beloved was given power over death and that he would remain in mortality to tarry upon the earth until Jesus’ return, at which point he would be changed from mortality to immortality at the twinkling of an eye. So, if the priesthood were taken from the earth as you say, it can only mean that the Apostle John had his priesthood stripped from him. I have two follow up questions:

1. Where in your scriptures does it talk about John having the priesthood taken away from him?
2. If his priesthood was taken away, how did John, along with Peter and James, lay his hands on the heads of Joseph and Oliver and give them something that he didn’t have to give?

I hope you’re going to stick around because I have a lot of questions for you.

What is left out of this comment is whether God uses translated beings to lead His church on the Earth. From the limited references to translated beings in the Bible (read about Enoch here in Genesis and here in Hebrews and Elijah here in 2 Kings). The limited amount of scripture regarding translated individuals suggests that God does not use translated beings to direct the affairs of His church on a daily basis, but rather uses them for special assignments. Elijah, for example, appeared to Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. John the Apostle and the Three Nephites would not be expected in their state as translated beings to be directing the affairs of the Kingdom of God on Earth. The Bible always references mortal prophets and apostles.

 

[Pattylt]

Jesus isn’t God.

False. Latter-day Saints believe Jesus to be a Divine Being.

Could you be more specific? Angels are divine beings. Demons are divine beings. God is more than just divine.
Thank you.