Questions about "the book of mormon is wrong" article from this website

[Stephen168]

The Book of Mormon was originally written by Christians, so I would be surprised if there was much heresy in it. It was changed as Joseph Smith rejected the Trinity. I think many of the unique Mormon beliefs were written in their scripture which turned out to an Egyptian funeral text; The Book of Abraham.

I agree, because the BOM is a divine document and God is Christian (in that He knows the truth of Christianity and would inspire a Christian book).

I suspect you have different Christians in mind which ones are those?

Christians who believed in the Trinity; believed God was an immutable, uncreated spirit; believed in weekly communion of bread and wine, and rejected polygamy.

Christians in the restoration movement meaning: reject infant baptism, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, anti-creed, anti-Catholic, give church a biblical name (Church of Christ yes, Lutheran no), and adventist.

 

[Lemuel]

I didn’t leave anything out. I asked a simple question. Was the priesthood taken from the earth or was it not. That’s a simple yes or no.

John the Apostle and the Three Nephites would not be expected in their state as translated beings to be directing the affairs of the Kingdom of God on Earth. The Bible always references mortal prophets and apostles.

According to Nephi, they are still mortals:

“And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.”

 

[Stephen168]

I’ll see what I can do…

1. Jesus isn’t God.

False. Latter-day Saints believe Jesus to be a Divine Being.

Christians don’t believe that a created being is God. Using that definition, the author was correct.

2. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren’t equally one God.

False.

John 17:22 - And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one

2 Nephi 31:21 - And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end . Amen

The author explained the Mormon rejection of the Trinity which seems correct. If you say the Mormon view of them is three equal gods, I’ll believe you.

3. God was created.

(Assuming here you mean “created ex-nihilo”, if you’re thinking “created ex-materia”, that’s a diffferent question) Latter-day Saints believe that The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, and each of us have existed forever in some form or another.

Christians believe man is created and God is uncreated. As you said Mormons believe God and man are the same; man is god in embryo. I think the author explained the problem with Mormon teaching.

4. Christ’s atonement redeems everyone and grace is a reward for those who obey him.

This is probably an area where Latter-day Saints have more in common with Catholics than those Protestants who believe that once you accept Christ you’re eternal salvation is secure.

You’re probably right.

 

[ConcernedConvert]

Hey I will respond hopefully tonight when I get a chance.

 

[ConcernedConvert]

It doesn’t matter whether the author is baptist or anti catholic. His sentiments in the article are the same. Catholics share many tenants of the faith with other Protestant groups. So just because the author is baptist doesn’t necessarily discredit his article.

First, You claim that Christ is a divine being. Not that he is one with god, is god and is the only god. This is the first problem.

According to the Mormon church we all can be be divine beings like god. This isn’t the case and contradicts historical and biblical teachings.

Second, You believe in the trinity in essence, but not substance, as in they are all one being, one god. Your churches website even specifies this where it specifies that Jesus is a god, but not the one and only god.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/god

Third, you did not really address that god is created. Historical and biblical teachings show us thAt God has always existed and was not created. That is not the case according to your teachings. Again from your website.

https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng

Fourth, there is no eternal guarantee for everyone. The concept that we all will be saved on some level and resurrected is not in line with the catholic teaching, nor historical Christian teaching in general. It creates a conflict with the teachings on hell and eternal damnation to believe that everyone will be saved and resurrected.

 

[gazelam]

I didn’t leave anything out. I asked a simple question. Was the priesthood taken from the earth or was it not. That’s a simple yes or no.

OK, technically you are correct in that the text you cited is black and white and ought to be a bit more nuanced. This quote (I found here) from Harold B. Lee is better IMHO:

"There has never been a moment of time when there hasn’t been someone holding the priesthood on the earth with power to check Satan and to hold him within bounds. Now that doesn’t mean that the kingdom of God was present, because these men did not have the authority to administer the saving ordinances of the gospel to the world. But these individuals were translated for a purpose known to the Lord. There is no question but what they were here. (Address delivered at Brigham Young University to Seminary and Institute personnel, 8 July 1964.)

John the Apostle and the Three Nephites would not be expected in their state as translated beings to be directing the affairs of the Kingdom of God on Earth. The Bible always references mortal prophets and apostles.

According to Nephi, they are still mortals:

“And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.”
[/quote]

Thanks for pointing this out to me. I was unaware that a translated being is still mortal. My quote should have been “The Bible always references un-translated prophets and apostles.” Take care.

 

[gazelam]

Could you be more specific? Angels are divine beings. Demons are divine beings. God is more than just divine.
Thank you.

Sure. I think Matthew 28:18 says it well: Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Latter-day Saints believe Jesus has all of the power of The Father, but is still subordinate to The Father. I hope this helps…

 

[gazelam]

You claim that Christ is a divine being. Not that he is one with god, is god and is the only god.

The Bible doesn’t say Jesus is the only God. Jesus refers to The Father as “My God”.

According to the Mormon church we all can be be divine beings like god. This isn’t the case and contradicts historical and biblical teachings.

This does not contradict The Bible.

Romans 8:16, 17
The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Revelation 3:21 I will give the victor the right to sit with me on my throne, as I myself first won the victory and sit with my Father on his throne.

Nor some early Christian writers.

Clement of Alexandria said:

Those who have been perfected are given their reward and their honors. They have done with their purification, they have done with the rest of their service, though it be a holy service, with the holy; now they become pure in heart, and because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits them a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of “gods” since they are destined to be enthroned with the other “gods” who are ranked next below the Savior. (Stromata 7:10 (55-56)

What about CCC 460?

The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature” “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

You believe in the trinity in essence, but not substance, as in they are all one being, one god.

No where in the Bible is it taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are consubstantial.

You did not really address that god is created. Historical and biblical teachings show us that God has always existed and was not created.

Depends on what you mean by “created”. We believe in creation ex-materia. Creation ex-nihilo is a false doctrine not found in the Bible.

Fourth, there is no eternal guarantee for everyone. The concept that we all will be saved on some level and resurrected is not in line with the catholic teaching, nor historical Christian teaching in general.

Everyone will be resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life

 

[AlNg]

Why is birth control ok?

I don’t know about Mormon belief on this, but some religions, including some schismatic Traditional Catholics don’t see much difference between artificial birth control and NFP when used to prevent births. Both have the same purpose or intention. And yet there are classes given at some Catholic Churches on how to use NFP to prevent birth.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

This would severly derail this thread. I would welcome a PM from you on this though. I am Traditional. I’m not schismatic, i’m not sure who you mean. But I have taught NFP and used ABC and while I submit that the Church has the right to allow NFP I hold that it can be used as contraception and in some cases see no difference between a barrier method and SOME uses of NFP. Again. Either PM me or start a thread but lets not hijack this one.

 

[Horton]

Romans 8:16, 17
The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ , if only we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

This verse in no way states we can become as God is. What we are heirs to is eternal life in the presence of God. After all there is nothing more valuable to inherit.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him , for we shall see him as he is.

To understand this verse you need the context. I John 3:1-3
See what love the Father has bestowed on us that we may be called the children of God. Yet so we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure.
It means something different when it is read as it is intended to be read.

What about CCC 460?

The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature” “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God .” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods .”

You drag this one out as “proof” the LDS are right. However you have been told many times by many posters on CAF that this does not mean what you claim it means. Read an article explaining what it means. Now you have this link you can refer to when you want to use CCC460 again to attempt prove something that is not. Are We Gods? | Catholic Answers

 

[ConcernedConvert]

Ok you claim the Bible doesn’t refer to Jesus as the only god which is false it is referred to multiple times biblically and within a multitude of writings from the early church fathers as well as Jewish scholars that (A)God is the only God and then (B) that Jesus Christ is one with god. Your ignoring a plethora of verses as well as the consistent teachings of early Christians as well as Jews when you state that there are multiple gods. The Bible as well as tradition also supports strongly that Jesus Christ is God, the god, the only God.

28 Biblical Passages Which Explicitly Teach There is Only One God | Institute for Religious Research

http://m.ncregister.com/blog/darmstrong/50-biblical-proofs-that-jesus-is-god

What the Early Church Believed: One True God | Catholic Answers Tract

Then you claim that the Bible doesn’t support the idea of the trinity which also not true. The Bible does support it as well as does the teachings of the early church.

What the Early Church Believed: The Trinity | Catholic Answers Tract

Next you claim that the Bible supports humans becoming gods. You have taken passages out of context to fit a narrative that “supports” your position. When that also is incorrect.

The Mormon Doctrine of Becoming Gods: What about the Early Church Fathers? | Institute for Religious Research

Again, you did not address that god is created according to your beliefs which contradicts teachings of the early church and the Bible.

And similarly, your last passage ignores numerous others on teachings of hell, eternal damnation and that not everyone will be saved. You have taken the important parts of the resurrection out which is those who believe in god will have everlasting life, key words being believe in god. Here is an article with biblical support of this teaching.

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap090600.htm

 

[Stephen168]

Again, you did not address that god is created according to your beliefs which contradicts teachings of the early church and the Bible.

And that is one of the key differences between Mormons and Christians. Mormons are polytheists who believe in many Gods, so when they say they can becomes Gods them mean a God just like God the father; a creation. A God who was once a man, who become God like they can.

Christians are monotheists who, like Judaism, believes in one uncreated creator God. So if a Christian every wrote that they will become god, we know they mean something different from the one uncreated creator. It is the rational conclusion. Mormons reject reason, so they find it difficult to see the obvious conclusion.

 

[Lemuel]

Well, that’s even more confusing.

“There has never been a moment of time when there hasn’t been someone holding the priesthood on the earth”

compared with

Following the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted and killed many Church members. Other Church members drifted from the principles taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles. The Apostles were killed, and priesthood authority—including the keys to direct and receive revelation for the Church—was taken from the earth .

They can’t both be right.

I was unaware that a translated being is still mortal.

It isn’t still mortal. It’s a change in state from mortality, as described in the link you posted about it.

 

[Lemuel]

Now that doesn’t mean that the kingdom of God was present, because these men did not have the authority to administer the saving ordinances of the gospel to the world.

So apostles don’t have the authority to administer the saving ordinances of the gospel?

 

[gazelam]

Fauken:

I didn’t say you believe Joseph Smith was perfect. I said he managed to accomplish something that Christ, who is perfect, apparently couldn’t. What sense does that make?

I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. ~Joseph Smith Jr.

John 14:12 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

[ConcernedConvert]

You have literally pulled a scripture out of context and completely ignored the verses around it. If you hadn’t ignored then you may have noticed that this scripture actually addresses a major flaw in Mormon theology.

8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.

12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; 14 if you ask anything in my name, I will do it

 

[Lemuel]

More Joseph Smith worship:

Mormon Doctrine, p. 472 “If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” — Bruce R. McConkie, 1966

John Taylor, the third Mormon president and “prophet” said basically the same thing. I didn’t bother to find that quote.

 

[Lemuel]

Since I mentioned President John Taylor, the prophet who died a fugitive of the law, I thought I would dig up another one of his golden nuggets:

“We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense. . . . Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century,” (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, 1858, p. 167).

Or this one:

“Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom,” ( Journal of Discourses , vol. 10, 1863, p. 127).

(And Mormons want to be called Christians???)

 

[gazelam]

Ok you claim the Bible doesn’t refer to Jesus as the only god which is false it is referred to multiple times biblically…

I’ll address these two as an example.

Isaiah43:10,11 — …before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me… …I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior

Isaiah44:6,8 — …I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God…

It’s important to look at the context used in the Old Testament. For example Isaiah 47:8-10 depicts the city of Babylon as saying:

Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:

But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments.

For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.

These verses do not preclude the existence of other cities. And there is Zephaniah depicting Ninevah saying in Zephaniah 2:15:

This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am, and there is none beside me: how is she become a desolation, a place for beasts to lie down in! every one that passeth by her shall hiss, and wag his hand.

Again it is clear that this phrase does not exclude the very existence of other cities. Using these parallel phrases makes it clear that Isaiah is not excluding the very existence of any other deity when he quotes Yahweh as declaring “there is no God beside me.”

This verse declares there are multiple gods.

Psalms 82:1 God takes a stand in the divine council, gives judgment in the midst of the gods.

Then you claim that the Bible doesn’t support the idea of the trinity which also not true. The Bible does support it as well as does the teachings of the early church.

Notable Catholic scholars acknowledge that the doctrine of the Trinity is not in the Bible.

The New Testament itself is far from any doctrine of the Trinity or of a triune God who is three co-equal Persons of One Nature. (William J. Hill, The Three-Personed God (Washington DC: The Catholic University of America Press, 1982), 27.)

There is no formal doctrine of the Trinity in the New Testament writers, if this means an explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. (Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1972), 44

Again, you did not address that god is created according to your beliefs which contradicts teachings of the early church and the Bible.

For the third time, are you referring to creation ex-nihilo, or creation ex-materia?