Questions about "the book of mormon is wrong" article from this website

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TomH1 said:
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TOmNossor:
Furthermore, there is evidence of pre-Columbian bee culture meaning that to the extent this question is a scientific one, the science is not settled anyway.
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What is the evidence to which you refer?
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Hello Tom, great name!

First, let me restate that the biggest problem is the Catholic Answers author and critics here are repeating their arguments and are not reading the Book of Mormon closely nor paying attention to educated LDS who respond to criticisms. The Book of Mormon does not claim that bees were brought to the Americas.

If you are interested in bee culture and/or you believe the BOM people did bring bees to the Americas (which is not ruled out by the text, just not stated) here is an article that discusses some pre-columbian evidence:

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Animals/Bees

I could link to 2-3 more articles, but hopefully this one will do well enough for you. All that being said, I do not research bees so I can only tell you that this criticism has been addressed and IMO should be retired. I as a non-Catholic am aware of a number of anti-Catholic criticisms that should be retired.

Charity, TOm
 
TOmNossor said:
First, let me restate that the biggest problem is the Catholic Answers author and critics here are repeating their arguments and are not reading the Book of Mormon closely nor paying attention to educated LDS who respond to criticisms. The Book of Mormon does not claim that bees were brought to the Americas.
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You are hear defending a claim I did not make and inferring I have made accusations I have not.

You made a claim and all I did was ask you to support it because you said there was evidence. You did provide me with a link and I did read through it until I eventually found a citation to bees, but not honeybees (Apis) as that term is generally understood, in South America.

I do think it would be a more precise claim to say that the indigenous peoples of South America obtained honey from the nests of various bee species. To refer to it as a culture is rather stretching the facts. I am sure honey was not their sole source of food.
 
TomH1 said:
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TOmNossor:
First, let me restate that the biggest problem is the Catholic Answers author and critics here are repeating their arguments and are not reading the Book of Mormon closely nor paying attention to educated LDS who respond to criticisms. The Book of Mormon does not claim that bees were brought to the Americas.
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You are hear defending a claim I did not make and inferring I have made accusations I have not.

You made a claim and all I did was ask you to support it because you said there was evidence. You did provide me with a link and I did read through it until I eventually found a citation to bees, but not honeybees (Apis) as that term is generally understood, in South America.

I do think it would be a more precise claim to say that the indigenous peoples of South America obtained honey from the nests of various bee species. To refer to it as a culture is rather stretching the facts. I am sure honey was not their sole source of food.
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Tom,

I agree that you merely asked about “bee culture.” I am sorry for my misunderstanding.

I am guessing you were more interested in the “bees” than the Book of Mormon. I was wrong for assuming otherwise.

As I said, I am no export on bees and furthermore I have no idea when ancient references to bees, honey, and … crosses the threshold to “bee culture.”

Supposedly one of the FEW surviving Mayan books, the Madrid Codex (post dating BOM times for those interested in such things), does discuss “male and female deities harvesting and collecting honey and conducting various rituals associated with bee-keeping.” I am not sure if that rises to the level of “bee culture” either, but if not I hope you will forgive my imprecise wording.

Here is that link (you got me interested in bee keeping culture outside the confines of the great Book of Mormon debate darn-you).


Charity, TOm
 
I see some arguments about honey bees in the Book of Mormon. I don’t know what the Mormons here are saying because I usually scroll past their comments, but my understanding is that the only reference to honey bees, or deseret, in the Book of Mormon, is in the Book of Ether where it talks about them carrying bees with them in the barges where they crossed many waters, but this was not the same barges that they used to cross the ocean to the Americas. I don’t think the BOM claims that the Jaredites brought bees to the Americas.

I’m not on the level of Book of Mormon scholars, so that’s just my 2 cents worth, as worthless as that might be.

What I find more interesting is story of the barges they built to cross the ocean. Talk about fairy tales. How incredibly gullible would you have to be to swallow that story? Nothing about the description makes any sense, miracle or not. Sure, miracles happened and God has been in control, but really . . . I guarantee you that the Book of Ether is nothing more than pure fantasy.
 
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I personally try to stay out of micro explanations about why the Book of Mormon is fiction. The view I’ve always held is a macro view from my childhood. Joseph Smith claimed the Book of Mormon was a story of all the American Indians and how they arrived from the middle east. That is not true, therefore the Book of Mormon is fiction.
 
Stephen168 said:
I personally try to stay out of micro explanations about why the Book of Mormon is fiction. The view I’ve always held is a macro view from my childhood. Joseph Smith claimed the Book of Mormon was a story of all the American Indians and how they arrived from the middle east. That is not true, therefore the Book of Mormon is fiction.
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I question your “I stay out of micro explanations” comment because it was YOU who brought up bees here and then when I told you you were mistaken you reasserted your same error. Now Lemuel tells you, you are mistaken and you “focus on the macro.” Probably best because your foray into the micro went poorly.

However the faithful LDS reason Joseph Smith claimed the BOM was about ALL American Indians and was wrong about this is quite strong and perhaps you shouldn’t dismiss it because of your faith, or lack of faith, or whatever in Joseph Smith.
The LDS view is Joseph Smith didn’t write the Book of Mormon so his ignorance of the content of the BOM is a product of him not being the author.
Charity, TOm
 
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It never mattered to me who wrote the Book of Mormon, or how it came to be. It was always the fact that Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church claimed the Book of Mormon was the history of all the American Indians and they came from the middle east. This claim is recorded in Mormon scripture, and supported by articles written in early Mormon literature. Scientists said that this was not true. It was not true in the 1970’s and it is not true today.

Therefore, Joseph Smith is not a prophet and the Book of Mormon is fiction.
 
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Stephen168 said:
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TOmNossor:
I question your “I stay out of micro explanations” comment because it was YOU who brought up bees
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You have to stay focused.
Stephen168 said:
I didn’t pull it out of anything. It was from the CAF tract referenced by the OP, which is the subject of this thread, and has a rock solid conclusion.
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Is this a real attempt to respond to what I said?
I have followed just fine, you are piecing together different parts of what I said to AVOID the fact that you made claims about bees and the BOM (first while quoting a Catholic Answer document and then on your own after I corrected you), that evidenced that neither you nor the Catholic Answers author could be bothered to make correct claims against my church. Instead of acknowledging your error, you off whatever this is.
Charity, TOm
 
Stephen168 said:
It never mattered to me who wrote the Book of Mormon, or how it came to be.
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If the BOM comes from a divine source it matters!
Stephen168 said:
It was always the fact that Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church claimed the Book of Mormon was the history of all the American Indians and they came from the middle east. This claim is recorded in Mormon scripture, and supported by articles written in early Mormon literature. Scientists said that this was not true. It was not true in the 1970’s and it is not true today.

Therefore, Joseph Smith is not a prophet and the Book of Mormon is fiction.
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If Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ do not understand it initially, this makes it much like the Bible. Not even the Biblical apostles understood much of what Christ was trying to teach them.
Charity, TOm
 
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Mormons claim their leaders receive revelation and write scripture. When Joseph Smith claims to receive a revelation about the Book of Mormon and recorded it in Mormon scripture, it was what all Mormons believed. But…It was not true. The Book of Mormon is not what Joseph Smith claimed it be. We can also say the same thing about the Book of Abraham, the source of all unique Mormon beliefs. I don’t believe Joseph Smith received revelation or wrote scripture. He was not a prophet.
 
TOmNossor said:
The derision you express concerning your former faith reminds me of another poster, @Texanknight
He did read my posts and based on what you say here, I suspect you wouldn’t want to follow his path.
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Why is that? Did the Mormon mafia go after him or was he just cast into outer darkness?
 
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Stephen168 said:
Joseph Smith claimed the Book of Mormon was a story of all the American Indians and how they arrived from the middle east. That is not true, therefore the Book of Mormon is fiction.
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There’s a lot of problems with the BOM. I haven’t studied the archeology much. It’s not really my thing. I’m a civil engineer by profession. Roads and pipelines excite me. Bones and relics do not. I just dont care that much about it. I find the story behind Joseph Smith’s creation of this novel to be a bit more fascinating though. But just as you say, it’s fiction.
 
lilypadrees said:
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TOmNossor:
If the BOM comes from a divine source it matters!
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Joseph Smith is not divine. Nor are “Mormon” or his son, the alleged angel, “Moroni.”
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Perhaps you misunderstood me. I am claiming the Book of Mormon’s author/creator is not Joseph Smith (not that Joseph Smith was divine when he dictated the Book of Mormon) but instead the Book of Mormon came through divine means. This is why Joseph Smith didn’t recognize how the extraordinarily consistent geography of the Book of Mormon worked. This is why Joseph Smith looked here and there to find points of contact with the real world but was inconsistent in what he found. This is why the bulk of Joseph Smith’s teachings in the beginning (and generally throughout his life) didn’t come from the Book of Mormon. This is why the most compelling archaeological connections between the Book of Mormon and the ancient world were never hinted at by Joseph Smith and his contemporaries.
The Book of Mormon came from a divine source THROUGH Joseph Smith.

Despite Stephen168’s hope that Joseph’s misunderstanding of what is in the Book of Mormon is compelling evidence that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints could not be God’s Church, this is not a solid conclusion. Joseph’s ignorance concerning the BOM is BEST explained by the LDS truth claim, Joseph Smith was not the author.
Joseph’s ignorance about the geography of the Book of Mormon is less damaging to LDS truth claims than Popes who claim that it is part of the Catholic faith to believe the sun goes around the Earth. A Catholic might say that Popes are not infallible in declaring science BUT many folks who consider themselves Catholics (like Robert Sungenis who was part of Catholic apologetics when Peter Kreft and Scott Hahn were his friends and contemporaries) might reply that speaking of what is and is not part of the faith is precisely where Popes are infallible. But, LDS prophets are not infallible concerning geography or anything for that matter, they just communicate with God and share His thoughts as best they can.
Charity, TOm
 
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I never heard that description before but that really hits the nail on the head! I approve.
 
Lemuel said:
There’s a lot of problems with the BOM. I haven’t studied the archeology much. It’s not really my thing. I’m a civil engineer by profession. Roads and pipelines excite me. Bones and relics do not. I just dont care that much about it. I find the story behind Joseph Smith’s creation of this novel to be a bit more fascinating though. But just as you say, it’s fiction.
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I’m not sure how it all unraveled for you, but it seems to me that once you know Joseph Smith got the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham wrong, how do you believe anything he said. He just didn’t get it wrong, he claimed he received the knowledge from God. Yet, it was wrong. What about polygamy, receiving the Melchizedek priesthood, God is made of flesh and bone, rejecting the Trinity, God was once a man? If things that can be objectively verified are false, I couldn’t take any of the other things he claimed seriously. People basically followed Joseph Smith into apostasy because they believed what he said about the Book of Mormon. The whole time he teaches his anti-Catholic story of the Great Apostasy; the irony.

I think it would be interesting to find out who actually wrote the Book of Mormon, but in the big picture it wouldn’t change anything for me, because of Joseph Smith’s “revelation” about it.
 
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