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davidv
Guest
Nothing. Free will is an essential attribute of what it means to be human. In heaven, or hell, we will be human. Therefore, we will have free will.
These are nonsense questions based on faulty assumptions.
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fladreamer
Guest
I gather you don’t think the ‘‘robot argument’’ is a solid, valid argument? Is there a guarantee that no one will sin in heaven given that souls will still possess free will?
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fladreamer
Guest
What, if anything, guarantees that there won’t be a second fall (human and/or angelic), or that no one soul among the billions (hopefully) of saved souls will ever choose sin? The beatific vision is irresistible, i.e. you can’t see God in his full glory and be lured by sin? You technically could, but you actually won’t?
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
As Catholics we hold that there is immediate judgement upon death and the genral judgement at the end of time. Now, if that is true, then it is impossible to have a will free to choose anything apart from God as once saved you cannot be unsaved and once damned you cannot be undamned. Free will cannot exist post mortem in heaven or hell. I suppose purgatory could be argued…
God appointed our mortal ( bodily) life on earth as our ultimate excercise of free will. That is how we attain heaven or hell, by our time on earth.
God gave the Angels a different if not equal form of choice. Since they had no bodies there was a time they could excercise free will. I think the Angels made thier choice as well. Done with lucifer and some with God. But again, I can’t see how a freedom to choose against God, or in short , sin, could happen with either angelic or human people in the realm of heaven.
Perhaps we have to choose in this life to give up our will… I don’t know…
God appointed our mortal ( bodily) life on earth as our ultimate excercise of free will. That is how we attain heaven or hell, by our time on earth.
God gave the Angels a different if not equal form of choice. Since they had no bodies there was a time they could excercise free will. I think the Angels made thier choice as well. Done with lucifer and some with God. But again, I can’t see how a freedom to choose against God, or in short , sin, could happen with either angelic or human people in the realm of heaven.
Perhaps we have to choose in this life to give up our will… I don’t know…
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Tomdstone
Guest
So there is no free will in heaven?
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BornInMarch
Guest
- I assume they have free will. it wouldn’t be Heavenly if they didn’t.
Awhile ago I heard someone say that only Saints go to Heaven and my first thought was “those standards are unrealistic”. But then after the fact I remembered Purgatory, and realized that Purgatory turns people into Saints. Even if someone just barely avoids Hell when they die, being in Purgatory will cleanse their soul in preparation for Heaven.
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Viki63
Guest
We will have freedom from temptations to sin. We will be free to choose God’s will, unlike here on earth where we have to struggle against manifold temptations and our fallen nature to turn our wills to His.
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mikekle
Guest
Keep in mind, if there have been human souls in heaven that have rebelled against God, there is no way any of us would know anything about it.
Although this does seem unlikely, satan and many other angels were in heaven at one time too and they chose to rebel, so I guess it is possible for human souls to do the same, the question of ‘why’ may be as simple as it was with Satan…pride.
Although this does seem unlikely, satan and many other angels were in heaven at one time too and they chose to rebel, so I guess it is possible for human souls to do the same, the question of ‘why’ may be as simple as it was with Satan…pride.
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fladreamer
Guest
Some theologians have argued that the angels and Lucifer were not shown God in his full glory, because then a decision against him is technically possible (free will subsists) but just won’t happen. So once you have the beatific vision you may not have any exterior temptation to sin and/or what you have is too good, truth and beauty in all its splendor, that wanting something else is impossible. It’s also likely the same scenario with Adam, he was not shown the full glory of God because it would have made choosing against God impossible. Takeaway lesson: being freely chosen is God’s top priority, one that trumps all other considerations.
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davidv
Guest
Every time you and I sin, there is a second fall. The key question is, how will you react to that fall. Will you admit your sin and repent, or will you dismiss it as irrelevant and continue to sin. Our free will is an necessary attribute of what it means to be human, therefore we must always be able to choose. Jesus, and His mother Mary, demonstrated how be free and never choose evil over good.
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Karen107
Guest
There wont be any need to ‘choose’ in heaven because we will be one with God and sharers in His Glory…To ask if we will have free will is to ask if God has free will, see it’s not as if God has to choose something, God just is all things good therefore we will be all things good…Therefore the question about free will in heaven is a non-issue…See even if there was free will in heaven we wouldn’t want to choose anything after having experienced God on Gods level…
Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
po18guy
Well-known member
For our freedom. God is a radical defender of freedom, as love must be a freely made decision.
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mikekle
Guest
That would imply passage of time though, if there was a ‘time frame’ when the angels were not aware of or not shown the total glory of God and then after some point, they were shown this, Im not sure how one could say time has not passed in some form.
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mikekle
Guest
So why would the angels have been any different then? Especially considering they were more aware of the glory of God than any human ever was, in that they had a much greater intelligence and lived among God since their creation. They did not need faith, they KNEW God and KNEW all he was capable of, and knew how all powerful he was.
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goout
Guest
I know what you are saying but I must disagree with the way you state it.
There must be free will in heaven. There is no way around it.
God created us as free beings, and the choice for God is returning his love.
He created us to freely choose him, always.
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Richca
Guest
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Bradski
Guest
Free will implies choice. What decisions do you need to make?
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Do you think you
Have the freedom to chose sin and against God in heaven for all eternity?
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goout
Guest
I’m not nearly a Thomist philosopher but this is the way I understand it:
The will moves. It wells up in us and moves us to desire this or that.
We are inclined to move towards what is good for us, and since in this world no one thing is experienced as wholly good, we must choose. Our will moves toward this good but it is not obtainable outside the beatific vision.
By heaven, we mean the apprehension of the beatific vision, which is wholly good. The motion of our will is by necessity directed to this good, so in that respect no choice is necessary.
So we are following a necessity of the will. That is not the same thing as considering a “freedom to choose.”
I think the problem here is we don’t make any distinction between freedom of the will and the necessity of a choice. Maybe we have a distorted vision of “freedom”.
The only thing objectionable is the notion that we are restrained in heaven. We are not restrained in heaven.
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goout
Guest
Not necessarily. See above.
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