Questions about the Jews

[CatholicCrusade]

And so if John Paul II said that St. John vi is merely a discourse on the symbolic bread to be fulfilled at the Last Supper, would you believe that, too?

What the CCC says is a blatant contradiction of I Thess ii. 14, 15. To say that the Pope can supercede what the Bible most surely says is absurd. It would be paramount, as I said above, to the Pope saying that in the Bible the Eucharist is a symbol. It would be to completely turn around what the Bible says to make it mean the stark opposite.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

He isn’t going to do that. He has, however, had a lot to say about the Jews. I again refer you to the Catechism.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Stillsmallvoice:invaluable!
So true are the words of Samuel Longhorn Clemens…He proves God exists and his most Precious people, the Jews are favored and protected forever!

but at the same time why does God give them all these chances to repent?..ive read a lot of the “Old Testament” and every other page the Jews were right back to the same old detestable practices, where is true justice? or am I not someone to open his mouth, God does what he does and I should not even go there, I am “less than nothing”?

i dont know what your doing in a Christian chatroom, but you came at a good time…you asked if i had anymore questions…

these concern Christians…i accept your personal opinion no matter how harsh or lite, this will not be used as grounds for attack or hard feelings. i honestly dont know what the Jews think about the following…

1)Nowdays, do Jews think that Jesus was a dangerous/bad person for what he said and did/caused? Was what he said about people like the Pharisees fair/true or were they in the right? Did he really heal people, miracles, etc?

2)Did “Christians” steal/unjustly-use the Sacred Writings (Law, Histories, prophecies, psalms,etc) and other Jewish “things”? Is this very very bad, i.e. the ultimate blasphemy?

3)Have you every read the “New Testament”? do Jews think that it was fitted/built around old prophecy instead of it really happening? I have read/heard lots of stuff (and believe in it) and I dont know how else a Jew could see something else of it or how it will come, for example (from the New Testament are a lot of the phrophecies)…
a)Psalm 110:1 “The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand…” (who is the other Lord, is he a mere human?)
b)Zech 13:17 “I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered” (who are the sheep and who is the shepherd?)
c)Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem…will come a ruler who will be the shepherd of my people Israel”
d)Ps 78:2 " I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of time" (what parables are these?)
e)Gen 2:24, Matthew 19:4-9 Jesus-“Therefore what God has joined, let man not separate.” “Moses permitted you to divorce…because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way in the beginning.” (This seems like a fair statement to me.)
f)Zech 9:9 “…See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey…” (Why is the king on a donkey, is this no big deal?)

1. are non-Jews nobodies who God doesnt care about? What about me, what am i to God?

p.s. i seem to have gotten carried away with all those questions, you dont need to go through each if it is too time consuming

 

[RSiscoe]

Who killed Jesus?

The general idea that one gets from reading over these posts is that everyone is guilty of the death of Jesus (since we have all sinned), except for the Jews. Why is everyone so quick to claim that we are all guilty, yet hesitate to place that same blame on individual Jews:

"[N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion"

**Another person said: “**The reason I responded to siscoe’s post the way I did is because Isaiah clearly says it was our sins that caused Jesus to go to the cross. Does siscoe deny that he has sin in him?”

So he is willing to place the blame on me, and us, but not on the Jews. Yet, not I, but God Almighty said the following: "The Jews who…****killed the Lord Jesus…" (1 Thes 2:14-15).

What is the truth?

The truth is that on one level we are certainly all guilty of Jesus death. Jesus died as a saccrifice for sins and we have all committed sins: therefore, on that level we are all guilty. In fact, Catholics who sin are worse than Jews who sin since we have the true religion - “to whom much is given, much is expected”. I think everyone on the boards would agree that on this level we are all guilty.

But there is another level of guilt. It is the “collective” level. On this level, the Jews alone are guilty of the death of Jesus. Just as the Jewish as a race benefited from the meritorious actions of Abraham, so too they have suffered from the sinfull actions of those of their race that killed Jesus. The only way to break this “curse” from God is for them to convert.

When the Bible says “the Jews killed Jesus”, it is true. Why is everyone so fearful of offending the Jews? Are you just as fearful for offending, say, a SSPX member? or a Sedevacantist? I doubt it.

That brings up an interesting point, which I would ask people to consider. Why are Catholics today so fearful of “offending” Protestants and Jews? Yet not at all concerned of they “offend” a "radical Traditionalist? Why the double standard? After all, say what you will about the Traditionalists, but they do believe what the Church always taught prior to Vatican II (of course there are some exceptions in certain groups), whereas the Protestant (generall speaking) hate many beautiful truths of our holy religion.

What is the reason for such affection towards the Jews, and Protestants, but such bitter hatred for Traditionalists? After all Traditionalists can show that what they believe has been taught since the earliest years of Christianity. Therefore, if someone hates them for teaching what has always been taught, what would they have thought about the saints and doctors of the Church who taugth the same thing?

Why do the saints and doctors of the Church get a pass, while those today who speak the same today are called names? Is it the person or the teaching that is hated? If it is the teaching, what of all those saints who taught the same? And, lo and behold, what if the truth does not change, and thus what has always been taught and believed by Catholics is actually right? What would that say of those who have bitter hatred for those who speak as Catholics have always spoken?

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Lessee…

Sherlock, you posted:

Thanks for that information…

You’re welcome!

…it’s really very interesting.

I try!

God bless.

Thank you again!

Manualman, you posted:

Thanks for the truly valuable (name removed by moderator)ut.

You’re welcome.

I had no idea there were still Jews who believe in the coming of a literal Messiah. Growing up in an American town that was about 40% catholic and 40% Jewish all the Jews I knew were taught the Messiah was to be understood as meaning some kind of messianic age or some such thing (My memory of having theological discussions at age 10 is a bit dim). Would you describe briefly the various kinds of Jewish faith groups out there for us poor ignorant gentiles? It almost seems as fractured as Christianity. Thanks.

Faith in the coming of the Messiah (whom we believe will be a flesh-and-blood, entirely mortal human being) is a cardinal belief of Judaism. Our very great medieval sage Maimonedes (ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/rambam.htm; whom St. Thomas Aquinas referred to as “Rabbi Moses”) summarized the 13 major principles of Jewish faith (ou.org/torah/rambam.htm). Principle #12 says:

I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. How long it takes, I will await His coming every day.

(Many Jews sang this as they went into the gas chambers in the Nazis’ death camps.) Traditional, normative (i.e, orthodox) Judaism not only still holds to this belief, but we cherish it.

Traditional, normative Judaism is orthodox (orthodoxy being a far broader spectrum than many non-Jews, and many non-orthodox Jews, seem to realize; see jewfaq.org/movement.htm#US for a good summary on orthodoxy & the other, so-called, “movements” within Judaism). The Reform, Conservative & Reconstructionist “movements” are newfangled movements that developed in Europe, in reaction to the Enlightenment. They have junked so many core Jewish beliefs and, in effect, make it up as they go along, influenced by whatever happens to be trendy at the moment & taking care to be “politically correct”. This is Judaism??!! I grew up, as I like to say, de jure Conservative but de facto nothing. I looked at what the Conservative movement offered & was thoroughly underwhelmed & unimpressed. Orthodox Judaism is all-encompassing and supplies a deep emotional commitment & spiritual food for the soul. Orthodox Judaism believes that the Torah comes from God; the Reform movement does not. The Conservative movement tries to straddle a middle ground that does not exist. If one does not believe that the Torah is from God, then what’s the point? Judaism is not, and never has been, an everyone-for-him/herself religion. Orthodoxy recognizes that there is a certain set of core beliefs that are immutable & which serve to bind all Jews everywhere, much as they have for thousands of years. Take Shabbat (i.e. the Sabbath, see jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm), most of the observance of which the Reform movement has junked altogether (I guess they ignore Isaiah 56:1-2 and 56:6-7) & which the Conservative movement has made “optional.” An early Zionist writer wrote, about this binding set of core beliefs & norms which I’ve just mentioned, “More than the Jews have kept Shabbat, Shabbat has kept the Jews.”

Roman Catholicism & orthodox Judaism (despite our rather obvious differences) have much in common. Our views on many ethical & moral issues are similar. But beyond that, ours are faiths with rules, with authority & structure & with discipline. Ours are not make-it-up-as-you-go-along faiths & never have been (I suppose Protestantism & Reform Judaism are like that). Rather than mold the faith to fit the individual, I think that we believe that it is the individual who must mold him/herself to fit the faith. The late former Chief Rabbi of the British Commonwealth, Lord Immanuel Jakobovitz (of blessed memory) once said that a faith which demands nothing is worth nothing. To be an orthodox Jew demands a great deal & I have learned to be a Roman Catholic is similarly very demanding.

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

Bapcathluth, you posted:

No wonder many Jews were freaking out about Mel Gibson’s movie.

Believe it or not, the movie (which hasn’t opened here yet) didn’t freak me out at all.

I submit the following. It’s Zev Chafets’s New York Daily News column from Feb. 29, 2004.

‘Passion’ is really pro-Israel

Sunday, February 29th, 2004

By Zev Chafets

I walked out of “The Passion of the Christ” early as Jesus was carrying the cross up the Via Dolorosa. We had a baby-sitter deadline. Besides, I already knew the ending. It’s right there in the Gospels.

None of the four New Testament accounts of Jesus’ suffering and death is as lurid or sadistic as Mel Gibson’s. But the biblical versions all tell the same story.

Jesus gets on the nerves of the Jewish priests of Jerusalem. They demand that the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, put him to death. Pilate is at first unwilling but eventually orders the Crucifixion.

End of story.

At least to me. I don’t believe Jesus was resurrected, that he was the son of God or the Messiah. I think of him - when I think of him at all - as just another charismatic revolutionary who threatened the status quo and paid with his life.

But I’m a Jew, not a Christian. And despite what many Jewish critics seem to believe, “The Passion” wasn’t made for us. Or about us.

Judging from the reactions I see on TV, a lot of Christians - Protestant and Catholic alike - come out of the theater deeply moved by Gibson’s movie. This reaction infuriates some Jewish scholars and activists. Gibson’s distorting history, they charge. He lets the Romans off too easily. He puts the blame on the Jews. By which, of course, they mean: on us.

These Jews need to relax.

Gibson is telling a 2,000-year-old story. Most Christians are smart enough and reasonable enough to understand the distinction between Caiaphas and Jerry Seinfeld. It is insulting to suggest otherwise.

It also is insulting to instruct Christians on how to interpret their own religious texts. Hey, you’re not allowed to read the Bible that way any more, the critics say. Go ask the Vatican. Check with the Harvard Divinity School.

This is reminiscent of recent American efforts to convince the world’s Muslims that their reading of the Koran is incorrect.

The plain fact is that the Gospels are Christianity’s collective account of the saga of Jesus, and, quibbles aside, “The Passion” is faithful to that account. Gibson didn’t write an original screenplay. If his movie is anti-Semitic, it is because the New Testament itself (like the Koran) is a book that aims to supersede Judaism by discrediting it.

I know, I know, passion plays were used to whip up pogroms in medieval Europe. But in the words of an Israeli basketball coach on the eve of a road trip to Germany: What was, was.

And what is, is.

Today, Muslims are waging a worldwide jihad against “Zionists and Crusaders.” Devout Christians are the allies of the Jews in this war. Branding these Christians as dumb and potentially dangerous bigots is obnoxious. It also is impolitic.

In fact, Jewish activists should embrace “The Passion.” After all, if Jesus was divinely sent to die for mankind, then the high priest Caiaphas was God’s instrument. If Jesus was just another rebel from the Galilee, well, no harm, no foul.

Besides, there is a pro-Israeli message in Gibson’s movie.

Lately, Yasser Arafat has taken to declaring that the original inhabitants of Israel were Palestinians. But there are no Palestinians in Gibson’s Jerusalem, just as there were none in the Gospels. Jesus and his disciples are as Israeli as Ariel Sharon.

The Arabs are still 600 miles and 600 years from the Holy Land.

If the Anti-Defamation League were smart, it would stop bugging Mel Gibson for an apology and ask instead for a couple hundred copies of the movie.

Link: [nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/168801p-147462c.html](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/168801p-147462c.html)

(cont.)

 

[JKirkLVNV]

In answer to the prior post: I don’t know any Catholics who “bitterly hate” Traditionalists or Sede Vacanteists. I know lots who don’t like having the Mass of Paul VI trashed. I know lots who would defend the papacies of Blessed John XXIII, Paul VI, JPI and JPII. Also, any rhetoric aimed at those two groups (Rad Trads/SV’s) isn’t likely to result in broken windows in synagogues or in a swastika painted on the side of a house, or in possibly worse. Rad Trad’s and SV’s aren’t likely to ever be the object of such things. That might account for the difference. Get back to me when RTs/SVs have been made to wear a token on their clothing denoting their separate and lesser status and when they’ve had their homes burned and when they’ve been rounded up and gassed. The Church has laid the charge of Deicide to rest.

 

[manualman]

Siscoe,

I don’t think anybody has said the rest of us are guilty of Christ’s death and the Jews are blameless. YOU are saying they carry a greater blame than other people. This is the false basis of everything HITLER did.

I also do not see anyone claiming no need to proclaim the gospel among the jewish people. But given the history and mistrust, evangelization today requires first an establishment of trust to be effective. Nobody’s going to embrace Christ because some obnoxious bomb-chucker told him he’d better or he’s gonna BURN.

Stillsmallvoice. God bless you, you’ve got a thick skin. Hope you hang around and keep people honest and informed. But beware, even the nice guys will be praying for you.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

Rabbi Jonathan Rosenblum wrote (also last February) in The Jerusalem Post:

…the proper approach is that adopted by the Simon Wiesenthal Center: an open appeal to Christians of goodwill to do for Jews what we cannot do for ourselves - i.e., work to ensure that The Passion does not become a vehicle for arousing anti-Semitic furies.

The Wiesenthal Center’s “Appeal to People of Faith” expressly eschews any request that Christians renounce or censor their most holy texts. It places the focus on actions, not beliefs. And that is as it should be.

Believing Jews have no interest in dictating others’ theology or demanding that they reject their most sacred texts. (One more reason for religious Jews to avoid a frontal confrontation with Mel Gibson.) All religion suffers when any religion is subjected to the strictures of modern-day political correctness. Already on many university campuses, it is a “hate crime,” punishable by expulsion, to express the biblical abhorrence of homosexual acts.

Religion is drained of all its power and majesty when its adherents witness its sacred texts and thousands of years of exegesis adjusted in accord with the demands of the local thought police. Recently, I was asked by a BBC moderator of a discussion of the Women of the Wall: “But don’t you think that a religion must update in accord with the times?”

“Not unless it wishes to be as irrelevant to the lives of believers as the modern Church of England,” I replied.

The above are a (close enough) representation of my views regarding The Passion of the Christ.

Catholic Dude, you posted:

but at the same time why does God give them all these chances to repent?

One of our most solemn Yom Kippur (jewfaq.org/holiday4.htm) prayers contains the following:

for You do not wish the death of one deserving death, but that he repent from his way and live. Until the day of his death You await him; if he repents You will accept him immediately.

Does that answer your question? Because God loves us and His call to us to return to Him is eternal.

i dont know what your doing in a Christian chatroom…

Well, I’ve always been interested in other religions, even before I decided to actively embrace my own. (Back when I was an undergrad at George Washington University in DC, from 1981-85, I minored in religion & was the student representative on the university’s Committee on Religious Life for 2 years.) I’ve always admired the Roman Catholic faith. One of my best friends back in the USA are a Catholic couple; the wife is a lay Franciscan (her husband & I were college buddies). I have tremendous respect for their dedication to their faith. Back in March 2000, I was fortunate enough to work on Pope John Paul II’s historic visit here to Israel (see tinyurl.com/4co5r). I have very great admiration for the current Pope’s work in furthering dialogue & conciliation between our respective faiths. If the next Pope continues in the footsteps of John Paul II & the saintly John XXIII, I have no doubt that Jewish-Catholic dialogue will continue to make considerable progress (see also tinyurl.com/6vwqj).

1)Nowdays, do Jews think that Jesus was a dangerous/bad person for what he said and did/caused? Was what he said about people like the Pharisees fair/true or were they in the right? Did he really heal people, miracles, etc?

We certainly don’t think that Jesus was dangerous/bad per se, as much as we (respectfully!) think he was wrong, not who he said he was & not who he is claimed to be. See tinyurl.com/37qc2.

About what the Gospels say about the Pharisees, see tinyurl.com/3q3nq. Josephus (in “Against Apion”) wrote as follows:

The Pharisees [who are considered most skillful in the exact explication of their laws and are the leading school] ascribe all to fate and to God and yet allow that to do what is right or to the contrary is principally the power of men, although fate does cooperate in every action. They say that all souls are imperishable but that the souls of good men only pass into other bodies while the souls of evil men are subject to eternal punishment.

(…).

Moreover, the Pharisees are friendly to one another and cultivate harmonious relations with the community…

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

You also asked:

2)Did “Christians” steal/unjustly-use the Sacred Writings (Law, Histories, prophecies, psalms,etc) and other Jewish “things”? Is this very very bad, i.e. the ultimate blasphemy?

The Tanakh (what we call what Christians call the “Old Testament”) is Holy Writ for Christins/Christianity too. How Christians/Christianity interpret it is entirely their business. We acknowledge that your interpretations differ from ours. As long as Jews/Catholics realize & acknowledge that the other’s beliefs have as much meaning for them as ours do for us, I don’t see a problem.

1. are non-Jews nobodies who God doesnt care about? What about me, what am i to God?

I’m a bit pressed for time, so I’ll answer your 4th question now & your 3rd question a bit later this evening (Israel time, which is 7 hours ahead of the US east coast).

Judaism most definitely does NOT believe that it’s “our way or the highway to hell” (i.e. We do NOT believe that all non-Jews will go to hell). Our Sages say that, “The righteous of all nations have a share in the world-to-come.” We believe that whereas there are 613 precepts/commandments in the Torah (Genesis to Deuteronomy; our most basic scripture) that are incumbent/binding on Jews, there are only 7 that are binding on non-Jews. Using the traditional methods of Jewish Biblical exegesis, our Sages infer these 7 precepts from Genesis 9:1-17 & believe that God gave them to Noah & his sons. Since Noah & sons were not Jewish, we refer to these 7 precepts as the 7 Noahide Precepts. The 7 are: 1) To establish courts of justice; 2) No blasphemy; 3) No idolatry; 4) No incest/adultery; 5) Do not shed blood; 6) Do not steal & 7) Do not cut meat from a living animal. (“Bnai Noach” means “Children of Noah” in Hebrew and refers to those non-Jews who abide by the 7 precepts. See noach.com/links.html for some interesting links.)

Our 18th century Sage, Rabbi Menachem Mendl of Kotzk (tinyurl.com/2xadc) says: “Just as we accept that our neighbor’s face does not resemble ours, so too must we accept that his views do not resemble ours.”

Gotta run!

Be well!

ssv

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Lessee here…back to Catholic Dude’s questions.

3)Have you every read the “New Testament”? do Jews think that it was fitted/built around old prophecy instead of it really happening? I have read/heard lots of stuff (and believe in it) and I dont know how else a Jew could see something else of it or how it will come, for example (from the New Testament are a lot of the phrophecies)…

Sure, I’ve read parts of the Gospels & the other NT books. Interesting as they may be, they are not scripture for us & we ascribe no authority to them. We would respectfully submit that there are no references to Jesus, the Trinity or the Incarnation anywhere in the Tanakh (naturally, we acknowledge that Christians would strongly disagree). We have our own understandings for each & every verse that Christians might claim is a reference to them. See [jewsforjudaism.org/web/ma(name removed by moderator)ages/FAQ.html](http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/ma(name removed by moderator)ages/FAQ.html) for links on our views on some of these verses.

p.s. i seem to have gotten carried away with all those questions…

Keep 'em coming!

Manualman, you posted:

you’ve got a thick skin…

How could I not? Rumor has it that I have a stiff neck too. (Gotta get me some DeepHeat or Ben-Gay .)

But beware, even the nice guys will be praying for you.

What, I should prefer that you curse me?

Actually, I’m flattered, and take it as a sign of respect, that you’re praying for me, Thanks!

Howzat?

C’mon everybody, let’s all think **Black **and **Gold **thoughts! (Now guess where I’m from: Roethlisburgh, Pennsylvania! Yeeeeeeeeeeha!)

Sorry, I could help meself; I was overcome by a burst of Steely pride!

Be well!

ssv

 

[JGC]

CatholicCrusade:

What the CCC says is a blatant contradiction of I Thess ii. 14, 15. .

So, as far as you are concerned, Church teaching is a blatant contradiciton of Scripture (or at least I Thess ii 14,15)


III. THE AIM AND INTENDED READERSHIP OF THE CATECHISM

11 This catechism aims at presenting an organic synthesis of the essential and fundamental contents of Catholic doctrine, as regards both faith and morals, in the light of the Second Vatican Council and the whole of the Church’s Tradition. Its principal sources are the Sacred Scriptures, the Fathers of the Church, the liturgy, and the Church’s Magisterium. It is intended to serve “as a point of reference for the catechisms or compendia that are composed in the various countries”.15

scborromeo.org/ccc/prologue.htm#III

POSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
FIDEI DEPOSITUM

ON THE PUBLICATION OF THE

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

PREPARED FOLLOWING THE SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL

JOHN PAUL, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pt 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.

scborromeo.org/ccc/aposcons.htm

 

[JKirkLVNV]

JGC:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.

scborromeo.org/ccc/aposcons.htm

I always look forward to you swooping in with the Catechism, JGC! You’re much more familiar with it than I am. I’ve given up counting the number of times I’ve typed “sure norm” on these forums. How about you? We should have a contest, you and I, like Gimli and Legolas in the “Lord of the Rings.” Instead of keeping track of orcs killed, we’ll keep track of “Sure Norm!”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

i dont have any questions right now, i bet i will in a few days. most of my questions have been saved up for a long time, and i posted what i remembered. am reading Jews for Judaism now.

About the NFL I hate the OT rules, first team to score wins this isnt pro sports…boo! Im not a big fan of Pittsburgh, but i think they are a good team, so was it last year or 2 years ago when they kept calling timeout and the other team got like 4 FG tries? watch out for Indy or will they blow it again?, (Peyton is nothing compared to Marino.) dont forget Philly they can blow it again too.

Ill be back soon

(p.s. isnt that crazy how the letters ‘I’ and ‘l’ look the same)

 

[Ghosty]

Catholic Dude: For a perspective of a Jewish man who is also Catholic, check out “Salvation is from the Jews.” It’s not exactly about the questions you’re asking, but it’s a logical course of future study. It’s about the place of Jews today from the perspective of a Jewish Catholic, and it also gives some ideas for how Christianity could branch off of Judaism in the early days when it was primarily a Jewish belief.

I encourage you to keep studying Judaism, espescially orthodox (read: real) Judaism. As StillSmallVoice said, our ways are actually very similar in many regards. I myself was moving towards adopting Orthodox Judaism when I became convinced of the Catholic argument about Jesus. The reason that I became Catholic after believing in Jesus was precisely because of the similarities SSV described, and more. The Church is, in my eyes, the logical post-Messianic growth of Temple Judaism, albeit with a slightly different spin on just who the Messiah was/will be.

Furthermore, don’t be discouraged by those people who still insist on slandering the Jewish people as a group. They tend to ignore our own heritage, espescially that we (non-Jewish Catholics) are a people grafted on to the tree of Israel.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

wow i just came out of Jews for Judaism.com. some thoughts…
1)I read a lot of the questions and many made sense. I was stumped on a lot of things too.
2)I searched around and saw some bad stuff that people (they seemed to be mostly extreme protestants) were doing, things like dressing up as rabbis to trick Jews, baiting them with lies and such, invading privacy,etc . I would consider this a threat, no wonder the site was created.
3)I went into the forums, just looked. Almost everything was denouncing Christians, i didnt know what to think.

i have though about the following for a long time.
Its like there is no link between Jew and non-Jews. Why did God single out the Jews?..i fall into the same pit as in the previous posts…its like God doesnt care about anybody but the Jews, and for reasons that i as a human can not reconcile in fairness and justice. I read the Old Testament and it is directed entirely at Jews (which it is supposed to be) so where does God care about the rest? yes there are a few sentences that say “oh yea dont forget those other ‘guys’ im pretty sure God cares about them too.” God knows the heart of every man? when i go to places like the J4J forums they talk (very effectively) like Christianity is the ultimate evil (which is understandable from that point of view) and that there is no room in Gods teaching or plan for anybody but them. when i hear stuff like “salvation is from the Jews” i say they want to have nothing to do with us! and in terms of converting Judaism, this doesnt make sense at all, how can a powerless human make himself part of God’s exclusive chosen, he cant!
the Jews have been a central part in the history and development of the world. yet what for, why did God make the 6 billion “other” people?
I seek not in jealousy but in pain, frustration and sense of meaning. i have tried to reason with this for years, and I came to the conclusion that understanding the Jews was the core to Christianity, but i cant understand. I cant overcome the mountain, where do these two people connect on a common ground? In such a way where both agree that there is some common truth?
All I have is my family and the Church. I have no choice. as a sinner all i can do is seek relief from the precious words “I absolve you” and the renewing power. I will follow my Lord Jesus in humility and hope, charity and love. all this to the best of my ability and last of my days.

 

[trogiah]

In light of the various attempts to put the responsibility for Jesus’s death on “the Jews”, I would like point out that those who are humanly responsible for giving him life were also Jews. For instance, his mother Mary and father (or foster father if you prefer) Joseph. The Apostles were Jews, Jews who believed the Messiah had come. John the baptist was Jewish. Mary and Martha were Jewish. The story of the Messiah is a Jewish story and all those with primary parts in it are Jewish, including Jesus himself.
If, instead of saying that Jews are responsible for Jesus’s life, we wish to say that God is responsible for Jesus life, then really we must say that God is ultimately responsible for Jesus’s death.

Anyone familiar with the plight of many Jewish communities throughout the centuries might wonder if indeed God were “punishing” them for something, but if God is really doing that, we - as Christians - certainly are not required in any way to contribute to such “punishment”.

The link between Jews and non-Jews?

Any person that lives a life in touch with God’s kingdom will have Life. Jewish, Christian, or otherwise. This is the common link between all human-kind. I happen to think that the words of Moses, the Prophets, and Jesus himself present this idea better than anyone else ever has. That doesn’t mean that I am a better person for calling myself a Jew or a Christian unless I really follow what Moses, the Prophets, and Jesus said we should do.

Very interesting thread.

Peace

-Jim

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

I’m here at the office, sipping my second mug of Turkish coffee (“Mmmm…Coffee…ahhhh” SSV says in his best Homer Simpson imitation). Lessee here…

Catholic Dude, your post really touched me. It is sincere & from the heart.

3)I went into the forums, just looked. Almost everything was denouncing Christians, i didnt know what to think.

You can think that our faiths are alike in many ways, some not so positive. Just as some of your over-zealous and/or misinformed brethren are into denouncing Jews, some of mine are into denouncing Christians. Just as your over-zealous brethren do not represent either you or the normative teachings of your faith, please take it from me that my over-zealous brethren neither represent me nor the normative teachings of my faith.

I take my cue from our (Israel’s) former chief rabbis, the ones (now retired) who welcomed Pope John Paul II when he visited here 4+ years ago. Then Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau is a survivor of Buchenwald & was born in Poland. He & the Pope chattered away in their native Polish. If Rabbi Lau and (then) Sephardi Chief Rabbi Eliyahu Bakshi-Doron could welcome the Pope as their guest & receive him cordially, who am I (an unlettered yokel compared to Rabbis Lau & Bakshi-Doron) to disagree with them? Shouldn’t we, as ordinary Jews & Catholics, learn from our respective spiritual leaders and see each other as brothers & friends?

Why did God single out the Jews?..

One of the more misunderstood concepts of Judaism is the “Chosen People” thing. First, let me cite jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm:

Judaism maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. This has been the majority rule since the days of the Talmud. Judaism generally recognizes that Christians and Moslems worship the same G-d that we do and those who follow the tenets of their religions can be considered righteous in the eyes of G-d.

Contrary to popular belief, Judaism does not maintain that Jews are better than other people. Although we refer to ourselves as G-d’s chosen people, we do not believe that G-d chose the Jews because of any inherent superiority. According to the Talmud (Avodah Zarah 2b), G-d offered the Torah to all the nations of the earth, and the Jews were the only ones who accepted it. The story goes on to say that the Jews were offered the Torah last, and accepted it only because G-d held a mountain over their heads! (In Ex. 19:17, the words generally translated as “at the foot of the mountain” literally mean “underneath the mountain”!) Another traditional story suggests that G-d chose the Jewish nation because they were the lowliest of nations, and their success would be attributed to G-d’s might rather than their own ability. Clearly, these are not the ideas of a people who think they are better than other nations.
Because of our acceptance of Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of G-d, but we lose that special status when we abandon Torah.

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

Rabbi Shraga Simmons writes (in his article: “The Chosen People: Appreciating an Often Misunderstood Idea”, see aish.com/literacy/concepts/The_Chosen_People.asp):

The Jewish nation is often referred to as “the Chosen People.”
Many people (including Jews) are uncomfortable with this idea. They perceive the concept of a “Chosen People” as racist and mindful of the Nazi concept of a supreme “Aryan” nation. It appears to contradict the accepted Western ideal of all people being equal before God.

Is the Jewish concept of choseness racist?

When the Torah refers to the Jewish people as “chosen,” it is not in any way asserting that Jews are racially superior. Americans, Russians, Europeans, Asians and Ethiopians are all part of the Jewish people. It is impossible to define choseness as anything related to race, since Jews are racially diverse.

Yet while the term “Chosen People” (Am Nivchar - Deut. 7:6) does not mean racially superior, choseness does imply a special uniqueness.

What is this uniqueness?

Historically, it goes back to Abraham. Abraham lived in a world steeped in idolatry, which he concluded was contradicted by the reality of design in nature.

So Abraham came to a belief in God, and took upon himself the mission of teaching others of the monotheistic ideal. Abraham was even willing to suffer persecution for his beliefs. After years of enormous effort, dedication and a willingness to accept the responsibility to be God’s representative in this world, God chose Abraham and his descendents to be the teachers of this monotheistic message.

In other words it is not so much that God chose the Jews; it is more accurate that the Jews (through Abraham) chose God.

(…).

The essence of being chosen means responsibility. It is a responsibility to change the world – not by converting everyone to Judaism, but by living as a model community upheld by ethics, morals and beliefs of one God. In that way, we can influence the rest of mankind, a “light unto the nations” (Isaiah 42:6).

(…).

Further, Judaism is not exclusionary. A human being need not to be Jewish to reach a high spiritual level. Enoch “walked with God,” and Noah had quite a high level of relationship, though neither were Jewish. Our tradition is that all of the 70 nations must function together and play an integral part in that “being” called humanity.

You also posted:

how can a powerless human make himself part of God’s exclusive chosen, cant!

Well, although ours is not a missionizing faith, we do accept converts. But as Rabbi Simmons wrote, we believe that one need not be Jewish to be on a high spiritual level & have a personal relationship with God.

Do you know the flipside of being “chosen”? It’s not so pleasant.

Amos 3:1-2 tells us:

Hear this word that the Lord has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up out of the land of Egypt, saying: You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will visit upon you all your iniquities.

Trogiah, you posted:

Any person that lives a life in touch with God’s kingdom will have Life. Jewish, Christian, or otherwise. This is the common link between all human-kind. I happen to think that the words of Moses, the Prophets, and Jesus himself present this idea better than anyone else ever has. That doesn’t mean that I am a better person for calling myself a Jew or a Christian unless I really follow what Moses, the Prophets, and Jesus said we should do.

Well said!

Be well!

ssv

 

[mlchance]

CatholicCrusade:

What the CCC says is a blatant contradiction of I Thess ii. 14, 15.

The contradiction doesn’t come from the infallible Church who authored the Catechism. The contradiction resides firmly in your flawed understanding. Form your conscience according to the Church’s teachings, and then obey.

Even if you, CatholicCrusade, had been the only person who had ever lived, Christ Jesus still would have been crucified for the sins of the world. It would have been your hand on the scourge, your hand on hammer and nails, your hand on the spear, your lips mocking your Lord.

– Mark L. Chance.