Questions about the Jews

[RSiscoe]

Quote:
p.s. i seem to have gotten carried away with all those questions…

Stillsmallvoice:

Keep 'em coming!

What about the question I asked several days ago. I think it is a very good question, and I am curious what your answer would be. I will post the question one more time:

QUESTION: In AD70 the Jewish temple was completely destroyed. The records of the priesthood (lineage) no longer exist, and there has been no Jewish religion (according to the law of Moses) for over 1900 years.

Why do you think God has so punished the Jewish people? Just look what He has allowed to happen. They no longer are able to practice the law; they no longer have a Temple; they no longer even have a priesthood. And this has not been a “temporary” thing, but has lasted for over 1900 years. Why has God punished the Jewish people to severerly? What did they do to deserve such a punishment?

I am very curious as to your answer. What was the event that cause God to unleash such a severe punishment against His chosen people?

 

[RSiscoe]

If you don’t mind, there is one more question I would like to ask. It is regarding the “miracle of the scarlet thread”.

The Talmud recounts that when the Temple stood in Jerusalem, the sins of the Jewish people were taken away each year on one day, Yom Kippur, when the High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies with a sacrifice to atone for the sins of the people for the preceding year. Each year, a scarlet thread was affixed to the entry to the Holy of Holies, and miraculously, when the sacrifice within was accepted, the thread would turn white as a sign that the sins had been forgiven. Well, the Talmud recounts that, for no clearly identifiable reason, the miracle ceased to take place about 40 years before the destruction of the Temple. In other words, after about 30 A.D. the thread never again was turned white!

So at about the time in history when Jesus was put to death, and the curtain in the Temple was miraculously torn in two, the miracle of the scarlet thread - which turned white to signify that the sacrifice was accepted by God and sins forgiven - ceased.

What do you think the reason for that was? And do you think the punishment God has inflicted upon the Jewish people (no more Temple, no Priesthood, no way to practice the law of Moses) was in any way related to this event that caused the thread to cease turning white? And again, what do you think the reason for this was?

I hope you don’t allow my fellow Catholic’s attacks on me (for asking these questions), to cause you to not respond. I am very interesting in hearing how you will explain these things.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

RSiscoe, if you think that I’ve been ignoring you up until now, you’re right. I have been. Somehow I don’t think you’re really interested in a mutually didactic, friendly dialogue as you are in proving the superiority of your point-of-view (the polemical tone of your posts gives you away). I think I have answered some of your questions but I’ll add the following:

Our Sages tell us that whereas God destroyed the First Temple on account of three sins on our part (idolatry, sexual immorality & robbery), He destroyed the Second Temple on account of only one, gratuitous hatred. (Thus, our Sages teach that gratuitous hatred is as bad as idolatry, sexual immorality & robbery put together.) There is a statement in the Jerusalem Talmud that in every generation in which the Temple is not rebuilt it is as if in that generation it was destroyed. Our excising the demon of gratuitous hatred would, therefore, go a long way towards hastening our redemption. In Isaiah 60:22, God says, “I the Lord will hasten it in its time.” Our Sages note a seeming contradiction here: If redemption will come, “in its time”, how can it say that God will, “hasten it”? Our Sages teach that if we merit it, God will hasten the redemption, if we do not merit it, it will come in its time. 1,900 years is a long time? Says who? In whose perspective? Not ours. We are a patient people (kinda like the Ents, you are “hasty” as Treebeard would say; you wouldn’t make a good Ent…HOOMHOOMHOOM!). We take Lamentations 3

This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. Surely the Lord’s mercies are not consumed, surely His compassions fail not. They are new every morning; great is Your faithfulness. ‘The Lord is my portion’, says my soul; ‘Therefore will I hope in Him.’ This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.HaShem is good unto them that wait for Him, to the soul that seeketh Him. It is good that a man should quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord. It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth. Let him sit alone and keep silence, because He hath laid it upon him…For the Lord will not cast off for ever. For though He cause grief, yet will He have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies…Let us search and try our ways, and return to the Lord. Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.

to heat.

The scarlet thread stoppede turning white? That’s an easy one. By CE 30, God had already pronounced His terrible judgement of destruction on the Temple. From that time, our fate was sealed. In our view, Jesus had nothing to do with it. See outreachjudaism.org/Yomkippur.html for a detailed discussion of the issue.

Be well!

ssv

 

[RSiscoe]

Stillsmallvoice,

What do you mean by “gratuitous hatred”?

1,900 years is a long time? Says who? In whose perspective? Not ours. We are a patient people (kinda like the Ents, you are “hasty” as Treebeard would say…

I resepct the natural vitues of the Jewish people. If you are truly patient, as you say, good for you.

What is 1900 years a long time comparred to? It is a long time compared to the history of mankind. At what date BC does Judaism believe the creation of Adam took place? Was it around 4000 BC?

If so, 1900 years is about 1/3 of the history of mankind. That is a long time.

Regarding the scarlet thread. I once read an interview with a Jewish person who said the reason given by the Jews for the thread no longer turning white is that “too many Jews followed Jesus”. He said that is why God stopped turning the scarlet thread white. Have you ever heard that?

 

[RSiscoe]

One more question, if you don’t mind.

I have stated that the Jews killed Jesus, since that is very clearly what the New Testament says. Many Catholics did not like me saying that, but I an curious what you think? Do you think the Jews had Jesus put to death?

Of course I am not blaming individual Jews today for what happened; that is neither what I am saying, nor what I think. But our New Testament clearly places the responsibilty for the death of Jesus on the Jews. Do you agree with this?

 

[manualman]

Siscoe, I am sorry that I came across as attacking YOU. My perception of the situation was that an earnest man of a different faith was visiting this forum. I felt that ensuring that he receive what I believe to be a proper form of witness to the catholic faith was more important than the feelings of a fellow believer.

SSV, You may have heard this before, but I do find it surprising that anyone can read what Jesus said and find him to be anything other than either the true Messiah or a raving lunatic nutjob. There are the “I am” claims, the statements about destroying and raising the temple and many more.

If I were you and didn’t believe in the Divinity of Jesus, I’m not so sure that I would be so charitable to christians! Perhaps you could provide a link to a concise description of what orthodox Jews believe about the nature and role of the coming messiah?

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

RSiscoe, you asked;

What do you mean by “gratuitous hatred”?

The Hebrew phrase is sinat chinam. These 3 short articles aish.com/tishabav/tishabavdefault/Kamtza_and_Bar_Kamtza.asp, ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1101 & aish.com/tishabav/tishabavdefault/Bickering_While_the_Temple_Burns.asp explain it very nicely. By the way, as a point of reference, we mourn the Temples’ destructions (and some other things) on the Ninth of the Hebrew month of Av (falls in the late summer; see jewfaq.org/holidayd.htm), when we have a 'round-the-clock fast (as well as abstain from intimate relations, bathing & wearing jewelry, cosmetics & leather).

I resepct the natural virtues of the Jewish people. If you are truly patient, as you say, good for you.

Thank you!

I/we don’t need to measure our current 1,900+ year wait against any other time period. We’ll wait however long it takes; hopefully, by doing good & returning to God, we can shorten the wait (see my previous post).

Regarding the scarlet thread. I once read an interview with a Jewish person who said the reason given by the Jews for the thread no longer turning white is that “too many Jews followed Jesus”. He said that is why God stopped turning the scarlet thread white. Have you ever heard that?

I haven’t heard this.

Do you think the Jews had Jesus put to death?

First, I present the following:

Concerning Jesus’ executioner, Pontius Pilate, we have a considerable body of data that contradicts the largely sympathetic portrayal of him in the New Testament. Even among the long line of cruel procurators who ruled Judea, Pilate stood out as a notoriously vicious man. He eventually was replaced after murdering a group of Samaritans: The Romans realized that keeping him in power would only provoke continual rebellions. The gentle, kindhearted Pilate of the New Testament—who in his “heart of hearts” really did not want to harm Jesus is fictional. Like most fictions, the story was created with a purpose. When the New Testament was written, Christianity was banned by Roman law. The Romans, well aware that they had executed Christianity’s founder—indeed the reference to Jesus’ crucifixion by the Roman historian Tacitus is among the earliest allusions to him outside the New Testament—had no reason to rescind their anti-Christian legislation. Christianity’s only hope for gaining legitimacy was to “prove” to Rome that its crucifixion of Jesus had been a terrible error, and had only come about because the Jews forced Pilate to do it. Thus, the New Testament depicts Pilate as wishing to spare Jesus from punishment, only to be stymied by a large Jewish mob yelling, “Crucify him.” The account ignores one simple fact. Pilate’s power in Judea was absolute. Had he wanted to absolve Jesus, he would have done so: He certainly would not have allowed a mob of Jews, whom he detested, to force him into killing someone whom he admired.

Crucifixion itself, a Roman form of execution, was forbidden by Jewish law because it was torture. Some 50,000 to 100,000 Jews were themselves crucified by the Romans in the first century. How ironic, therefore, that Jews have historically been associated with the cross as the ones who brought about Jesus’ crucifixion.

Link:jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/jesus.html

This tinyurl.com/4sfv3 is the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Crucifixion.

Manualman, see this thread (“Jewish theology concerning the Messiah”) forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=17387&highlight=Messiah.

Be well!

ssv

 

[chrisb]

Peace be with you SSV,

I haven’t seen you in a while and I hope I find you, your family and your friends save, happy and in good health. Amen.

I read your post regarding the death of Jesus and I’m wondering whay current Jewish views in Jewish texts which accuse Jesus of crimes. I know historically these texts have brought much tension between Christians and Jews and I bring them up with no desire to incite such tension but could you offer me your understanding of these text and the merit that Jews placed on them and place on them today, if any?

Thank you, and may you continue to be blessed. Amen.

Peace, Loven and Blessings,

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Well im back early (it was a short day). First of all Ghost i ment nothing ill at you in that last post, i wasnt trying to refer to you.
i was in a less than ideal state at the time and some of the stuff in your post reminded me of some things. As for all the guys helping me out, thanks.

I was almost in a mild depression after that last post, i prayed and thought for a few hours, and when i got up today I had no ill feelings, its like I was a new man. Also I read that stuff by SSV,
one thing really stood out. the part where you said that some guys in these very rooms are just as piercing/zealous. the first time going though all these post i read over some of the very zealous posts you hint at, but at the time i didnt realize the magnitude of what they were saying, it was like everyday talk to me. it was a one way street, i think i forgot to mention that it was a mostly Jewis forum i was in, with its defenders of truth, like this is mostly Catholic with the same heart and passion for our “side”.

now that part of the "flip side to being chosen "
I guess i never really thought about what the Jews have on their plate. I always had the mindset that if I was a Jew way back then I would have never thought about idols, adultery,etc as if I was able to live the good, God fearing, easy life the Jews always seemed to be missing. it turns out all people have the same shortfalls throughout history except they had to be in the spotlight.
I admit that Im not quite sure what the Amos 3:12 means. is this saying with big responsibility comes big judgement? Is this saying that a few people can cause the rest to pay even in the future. if so this leads me to another huge/touchy subject… (cont)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

(cont) The Holocaust. it keeps getting mentioned in here on a surface level, but i have always had a few thoughts…When ever the Jews lost a major battle, civil unrest, captivity, etc, the OT always says it is because they made God angry and only because he allowed it, in some cases it says, like with the Babylonians that they weren’t doing “justice” to the Jews because they were more righteous, but because they were less wicked than the Jews. And one thing that stood out big time to me was when in one of the prophet’s writings God calls Nebuchadnezzar His servant! Now I can only see this as meaning Neb was given the power/opportunity to do this and not as a favor or by his merits… I read Eli Wiesel’s book NIGHT and I was scared to death, I went to the Holocaust museum in DC and could hardly look. I in no way can imagine what anyone went through, the naked evil. I mean no disrespect in this…was Hitler chosen by God? Did this happen because of the reasons mentioned?

 

[Ghosty]

I didn’t take any offense from your post, Catholic Dude. I wasn’t even aware that there was something I could take offense from.

I want to say something about the whole “Jews killed Jesus,” thing. As a Catholic who believes that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, I must say that I believe that it was primarily Jewish law and persuasion that put Jesus to death, and I don’t hold this against Jews, neither those today nor the Jews of that day. Why? Because according to our own Scriptures, Jesus was a gratuitous blasphemer according to the laws of Judaism, at least if you don’t account for Him being God on Earth. You didn’t, and you still don’t, walk around proclaiming to be Yahweh without having judgement passed on you. That is precisely what Jesus did. That I believe He really WAS Yahweh is irrelevant.

Jesus didn’t walk around with a hand-written, stamped and sealed notice of His Divinity, He relied upon the faith of those around Him. When His time drew near, He proclaimed Himself as Emmanuel, even calling Himself Yahweh. What was Caiphas to do? We can make a lot of noise about Jesus being innocent, but if He was a man, as those Jews who persecuted understood Him to be, then He was FAR from innocent! How can they be held in some low light for carrying out the appropriate justice as they understood it? Of course I believe that He WAS innocent because His claims were true, but there is no rational way for them to have known that at the time.

If there was a crime it was in the enjoyment certain people may have taken in His death, the “gratuitous hatred”, but the execution itself was completely valid. Interestingly enough, it’s the modern Jews who have more accounting of their ancestors “gratuitous hatred” than we Catholics do, so it’s hardly necessary for us to beat them over the heads with it. In short, the execution was not a crime, and the criminal attitude that permeated some individuals in those events has been lamented as one of the key reasons for Jewish suffering for two thousand years by the Jews themselves, even if the key event most spoken of by Jews is not the same as the Crucifixion.

We should all be careful when making judgements that we don’t fall into the same trap ourselves.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

(cont) the biggest question I have ever had about WW2 was Germany in the end. Why were the Germans not punnished?, why would the country be allowed to retain its name? Why werent the Germans all taken as slaves and their country divided forever? this leads me to another point.

when it comes to “did the Jews kill Jesus” (this wasnt the intent of the forum, but it looks like i got sucked in.) here is my take.
the physicall killing was done by the Romans, but the New Testament says the Jews wanted it and helped pave the way.
now this doesnt mean that the Jews are bad, but there were ones living at the time that had a large share in it.

My conclusion is that God will punish the Germans like no other. Just like the all Jews arent to blame, most are not (for example the Apostles), all the Germans are not to blame (for example all those Germans who helped hide jews) only some were Nazis.

also, I got to thinking about the 1900 years of “nothing happening”. When I look in the atlas i see a “new” country called ISRAEL. now i know that most of the countries in the world have always been where they are, but as we know them today they are individually recognized, politically. This has to mean something?

 

[trogiah]

RSiscoe:

One more question, if you don’t mind.

I have stated that the Jews killed Jesus, since that is very clearly what the New Testament says. Many Catholics did not like me saying that, but I an curious what you think? Do you think the Jews had Jesus put to death?

Of course I am not blaming individual Jews today for what happened; that is neither what I am saying, nor what I think. But our New Testament clearly places the responsibilty for the death of Jesus on the Jews. Do you agree with this?

I thought I would try again to present a view on the statement :“Jews killed Jesus.”

Jesus mother was Jewish, she didn’t try to kill him. The same could be said for Joseph. John the Baptist was Jewish, he certainly didn’t kill Jesus. The Apostles were Jewish. (I am not sure if all were but I know at least most were.) The promise of a Messiah was made to the Jewish people. Without the Jewish people there would be no Jesus.

The statement “Jews killed Jesus” so easily can be interpreted as a group of people sitting around and then along came this guy named Jesus and they killed him.

The people Jesus grew up with, who loved him, listened to him, accepted him or rejected him and yes, those who arranged to have him killed- all those people were in the overwhleming majority Jewish. The whole story is a Jewish story. Jesus is Jewish.

The phrase “Jews killed Jesus” is true enough but so far short of the whole truth that presenting only that truth is almost like lying.

I thing a verse from Revelation is worth considering:

"I know your tribulation and poverty, but you are rich. 9 I know the slander of those who claim to be Jews and are not, but rather are members of the assembly of Satan.

John clearly indicates that there are some people calling themselves Jews who are really not. Perhaps these are the ones most responsible for Jesus’s death.

Anyway - some thoughts for your consideration

peace

-Jim

 

[RSiscoe]

trogiah:

I thought I would try again to present a view on the statement :“Jews killed Jesus.”

Trogiah:

The phrase “Jews killed Jesus” is true enough but so far short of the whole truth that presenting only that truth is almost like lying.

-Jim

So even you agree with the statement from the Bible, which says “the Jews killed Jesus”. That is my only point. I am not trying to place the blame on each individual Jew today, but I am explaining that what the Bible says is true.

Just as it is true to say “The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor”, so too is it true to say “the Jews killed Jesus”. Again, I am not attempting to place blame on any individual Jew, but I am defending what the Bible teaches, and what has always been taught by the Church. That is my point. The people here on this board, who reject that statement from the Bible, are thereby condemning what the Church has taught for nearly 2000 years, I am defending the Church and the Bible.

 

[manualman]

The point most have been trying to make is that it is a distortion to say the Jews killed Jesus. The major point of the death of Christ was that God’s own people did it to Him. That the very people He came to redeem caused His death is part of the whole humbling mystery of faith. Today, WE are the spiritual decendents of God’s Chosen people. This is why it is SO CRUCIAL to understand that it was not some (point the finger) THEM that killed Jesus. It was US, His very own people. By allowing Himself to be killed through the sinfulness of the chosen people Christ demonstrates undeniable and unconditional love for us all. This is the very basis of our Christian hope! That NOTHING, no sin, however horrible can place us beyond the forgiveness of God. No one need fear that God no longer loves him. No one need wonder if God can ever forgive Him. He proved it. Alleluia!

Whether you are speaking academically or not, to phrase the Passion as ‘Jews killed Jesus’ is a distortion that detracts from the very message of the gospel.

 

[Altisimus]

RSiscoe:

Jews are not individually guilty of the death of Jesus, but collectively. The Jewish race as a whole is guilty. Just as the human race suffers from the sin of Adam, so too the Jews as a whole suffer from the death their ancestors inflicted upon Jesus - “His blood be upon us and upon our children”: that prayer of the Jews was answered. Thus, collectively, they have been blinded to the truth.

.

This is what you said, Siscoe. You have alleged what is called “blood guilt.” That is contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church. SOME of the LEADERS of the Jewish people are guilty of conspiring to put the Christ to death. They managed to do so with the help of their Roman occupiers. All of the Jewish people are NOT guilty. To say otherwise places one outside the pale of Catholic teaching as it is upheld by the Holy Father and the Magisterium of the Church.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

RSiscoe:

Jews are not individually guilty of the death of Jesus, but collectively. The Jewish race as a whole is guilty. Just as the human race suffers from the sin of Adam, so too the Jews as a whole suffer from the death their ancestors inflicted upon Jesus - “His blood be upon us and upon our children”: that prayer of the Jews was answered. Thus, collectively, they have been blinded to the truth.
The people here on this board, who reject that statement from the Bible, are thereby condemning what the Church has taught for nearly 2000 years, I am defending the Church and the Bible.

This is what you said, Siscoe. You have alleged what is called “blood guilt.” That is contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church. SOME of the LEADERS of the Jewish people are guilty of conspiring to put the Christ to death. They managed to do so with the help of their Roman occupiers. All of the Jewish people are NOT guilty. To say otherwise places one outside the pale of Catholic teaching as it is upheld by the Holy Father and the Magisterium of the Church. You are NOT defending the Church, because this is NOT what the Church teaches. And the Bible means what Holy Mother Church says It means.

 

[trogiah]

RSiscoe:

So even you agree with the statement from the Bible, which says “the Jews killed Jesus”. That is my only point. I am not trying to place the blame on each individual Jew today, but I am explaining that what the Bible says is true.

Just as it is true to say “The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor”, so too is it true to say “the Jews killed Jesus”. Again, I am not attempting to place blame on any individual Jew, but I am defending what the Bible teaches, and what has always been taught by the Church. That is my point. The people here on this board, who reject that statement from the Bible, are thereby condemning what the Church has taught for nearly 2000 years, I am defending the Church and the Bible.

I am struck by the difference made by the word “The”

Consider the difference in

“Americans tortured and abused prisoners in Iraq.”

and

“The Americans tortured and abused prisoners in Iraq”

or

“Christians burned heretics at the stake”

and

“The Church burned heretics at the stake”

It occurs to me the slight change in words makes an enormous difference. Using the word “the” tends to define the entire group of people as being participants in the action.

So, to clarify my own belief, Yes I believe the people who were humanly responsibe for Jesus’s death were Jewish. (Just as I believe most of those who gave their life in spreading the gospel were Jewish, at least in the first century.)

No I do not believe “The Jews killed Jesus” as though that is a defining characteristic of all Jews.

 

[RSiscoe]

trogiah:

I am struck by the difference made by the word “The”

Consider the difference in

“Americans tortured and abused prisoners in Iraq.”

and

“The Americans tortured and abused prisoners in Iraq”

or

“Christians burned heretics at the stake”

and

“The Church burned heretics at the stake”

It occurs to me the slight change in words makes an enormous difference. Using the word “the” tends to define the entire group of people as being participants in the action.

So, to clarify my own belief, Yes I believe the people who were humanly responsibe for Jesus’s death were Jewish. (Just as I believe most of those who gave their life in spreading the gospel were Jewish, at least in the first century.)

No I do not believe “The Jews killed Jesus” as though that is a defining characteristic of all Jews.

In 1st Thesselonians 2: 14-15, it specificall says “THE Jews killed Jesus”. Do you believe the Bible or not?

Regarding adding the word “the”: I would again us the example we have all heard “The Japanese Bombed Pearl Habor”. That is a true statement. Of course each Japanese person today is not guilty of bombing Pearl Harbor, but it is true to say that THE Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.

It was not just Japanese people who did it; if it were it would be more approapriate to say “Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor”, instead of “THE Japanese…” Similary, it was not just Jewish people who had Jesus put to death, but the Jewish leaders of that day - the goverming authority of the Jews: therefore it is appropriate to say "THE Jews Bombed Pearl Harbor.

Regarding burning heretics: It was not just “Christians” who burned them, it was THE Church who burned them. The Church found them guilty and they were put to death (by the state). It was not just “Christians” but the hierarchy of the Church that was the cause. Similarly it was the hierarchy of the Jews that had Jesus put to death. So it is perfectly appropriate to say “THE Church had heretics burned at the stake”, because that is true.

That is why it is completely appropriate for God to have said, in 1st Thess, that “THE Jews killed our Lord Jesus”.

Anyone who has a problem with this does not have a problem with me, but with God who I am quoting. God said it and I am defending it. Anyone who disagrees with what I am saying is really disagreeing with God, not me.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

RSiscoe:

Anyone who has a problem with this does not have a problem with me, but with God who I am quoting. God said it and I am defending it.*** Anyone who disagrees with what I am saying is really disagreeing with God, not me***.

Not according to the Roman Catholic Church.