Questions about the Jews

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

About the Sadducees (Caiphas was a Sadducee). I’ll cite jewfaq.org/movement.htm#Ancient:

Movements in Ancient Times

Perhaps the oldest records we have of a formal difference of opinion among Jews dates back to the time of the Maccabean revolt, which is the basis for the story of Chanukkah. At that time, the land of Israel was under the relatively benevolent control of Greece, and was deeply influenced by Greek culture. Hellenizing Jews were opposed by a religious traditionalist group known as the Chasideans (no direct relation to the modern movement known as Chasidism). As the Selucid Greeks began to oppress the Jews, war broke out and the Jewish people united in their opposition to the Greeks.

The war continued for 25 years, and the Jewish people remained united in purpose. But after the war ended, the Jewish people became divided into three groups: the Essenes, the Sadducees and the Pharisees.

The Essenes were an ascetic and mystical group devoted to strict discipline. They lived in isolation from the world. The Dead Sea Scrolls are believed to be the product of an Essene sect. Some scholars believe that early Christianity was influenced by the mystical and hermetical teachings of the Essenes.

The Sadducees evolved out of the Hellenistic elements of Judaism. The movement was made up of the priests and the aristocrats of Jewish society. They were religiously conservative but socially liberal. The Sadducees believed in a strict, narrow and unchanging interpretation of the written Torah, and they did not believe in oral Torah. The Temple and its sacrificial services were at the center of their worship. Socially, they adopted the ways of the neighboring Greek culture.

The Pharisees believed that G-d gave the Jews both a written Torah and an oral Torah, both of which were equally binding and both of which were open to reinterpretation by the rabbis, people with sufficient education to make such decisions. The Pharisees were devoted to study of the Torah and education for all.

After Judea was conquered by Rome and tensions with Rome began to mount, a fourth group appeared: the Zealots. The Zealots were basically a nationalistic movement, not a religious one. They favored war against Rome, and believed that death was preferable to being under Roman control. They would commit suicide rather than be taken prisoner. The most famous example of the Zealots was the defenders of Masada, who held the mountain fortress against the Roman Tenth Legion for months and ultimately committed suicide rather than surrender.

The Pharisaic school of thought is the only one that survived the destruction of the Temple. The Zealots were killed off during the war with Rome. The Sadducees could not survive without the Temple, which was the center of their religion. The Essenes, who were never very numerous, were apparently killed off by the Romans (they were easily recognizable in their isolated communities).

The explanations & table at jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/sadducees_pharisees_essenes.html are very helpful.

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

You posted:

So what is the biggest flaw or weak point of the Sadducees?

This opens up a Huge can of worms to me. I said above they seem like Protestants in a way, yet conservatives in another. What is the point of all that “extra stuff” after the Law, did God really intend to have anything but the Law? But wait they relied on the Temple, which was after the Law. Im confused!

The, “biggest flaw or weak point of the Sadducees,” was that they rejected an integral part of Judaism, i.e. the Oral Torah (see the first part of my Jan. 19 post), and indeed viewed as “extra (as in unimportant, extraneous, etc.) stuff”. Thus, their Judaism was unnatural & artificial.

I would add the following. We revere the first Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy as the Torah, our most basic scripture, and believe that God dictated it verbatim to Moses, who then wrote it down. Translating Torah as “The Law” is not only just plain wrong but it helps sustain the canard that mine is a cold & casuistic faith of laws, and not a faith premised on God’s love (which it, in fact, is). Hebrew has several words for “law”, “statute”, “ordinance” & the like but Torah isn’t any of them. Torah is, in fact, a cognate of the Hebrew rooth-r-h. The Hebrew words for “instruction/direction” (hora’ah), “teacher” (moreh) and "parent (horeh) are all cognates of the same root. (Our Sages teach that if the Torah was merely a statute book, we would have very little, if any, use for the Book of Genesis, in which we orthodox Jews count only 3 of the Torah’s 613 precepts.)

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

 

[neophyte]

This is a great thread. SMV, many thanks.

A question, if I may:
Earlier you pointed out that, when the Messiah comes, there would need to be prophetic guidance in identifying the Levites and Priests. How, then, if the geneologies are lost and prophetic graces are suspended, can the Messiah be identified?

Oseh shalom bimromav hu ya-aseh shalom aleinu ve-alkol Yisrael, veimru. Amein.
(May the One who causes peace to reign in the heavens let peace descend on us, on all Israel, and all the world. Amen.)

 

[neophyte]

If this is a repost, I apologize.​

This is a great thread. SMV, many thanks.

A question, if I may:
Earlier you pointed out that, when the Messiah comes, there would need to be prophetic guidance in identifying the Levites and Priests. How, then, if the geneologies are lost and prophetic graces are suspended, can the Messiah be identified?

Oseh shalom bimromav hu ya-aseh shalom aleinu ve-alkol Yisrael, veimru. Amein.
(May the One who causes peace to reign in the heavens let peace descend on us, on all Israel, and all the world. Amen.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi neophyte!

You posted:

This is a great thread. SMV, many thanks.

You’re welcome!

You also posted:

How, then, if the geneologies are lost and prophetic graces are suspended, can the Messiah be identified?

See forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=233191&highlight=Maimonedes#post233191.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Bad day for the Steelers. They needed more passing and less use of the bus. One thing that just kills me about the NFL is when a team keeps rushing right into a pile of defenders. They keep rushing in the exact same spot and the defense knows where to be each time.

About that calling the Torah “The Law” stuff I ment no disrespect. As you know it is my limited situation that I say stuff like that. As a Catholic I have read and deeply revere those books. But at the same time (and the purpose of this thread) there is so so so much I cant understand and comprehend being in my position. My reading and revering are done in a very limited light, hundreds of pages and years, theology, etc. are overwhelming for any man let alone a non-Jew. I have also said that understanding Jewish writings, teachings, history, etc is a key part into understanding Christianity. I see, and for the most part believe that many many people who hold up the Bible dont even give a second look at the history and Culture of the world’s most influential religion. (Not to mentions the English language, which only hinders progress.) Yet with the help of people like SSV I can at the very least get a few questions cleared up.

The green table of the three sects was very helpful. I didnt even know about the Essenes. When I look at the table it seems natural for the other two to “die out” and be left with “common people”.

Well time for more questions:
1)So for the Dead Sea Scrolls, I have heard that there is something wrong with them. Like that there are differences in text and are not really authentic?

2)I see that Pharisees accept “Mostly Free will”. This could open a can of worms, but what does this mean? In the sense that God could make a person do anything nobody really has full free will, but I am guessing that is not what “mostly” means.

3)I saw how the Sadducees dont believe in angels? Are angels never mentioned in the first five books of theTorah?

1. What is the story of Jacob and the ladder to up to heaven(?) supposed to mean?

till next time.

 

[neophyte]

stillsmallvoice:

…See forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=233191&highlight=Maimonedes#post233191.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

ssv,
I’m not sure I found the answer there, but the links were very good and I’ve bookmarked them for another time. Thanks.

You be well in return, and your family.

 

[yinekka]

Catholic Crusade, please cite the source for the alleged comment from Padre Pio.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Neophyte, you posted:

I’m not sure I found the answer there…

Please let me cite the passage I had in mind (I should have cited it in any case instead of just tossing a link at you; please forgive me!). Try this:

Our very great medieval sage Maimonedes ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/rambam.htm summarized lomg-standing Jewish beliefs about the Messiah as follows:

“In the future, the King Messiah will stand up and restore the Davidic monarchy…build the Temple, gather the dispersed of Israel, and restore all the laws as they were in former times: offerings, sabbatical and jubilee years as they are commanded in the Torah. Anyone who does not believe in him or who does not await his coming is a heretic, not only against the other prophets, but against the Torah and Moses Our Teacher…Do not entertain the notion that King Messiah will have to do signs and wonders, make new things in the world or raise the dead…This is not so…If a king arises from the House of David, learned in the Torah and engaged in [its] precepts like David his father, both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah, enjoins all Israel to follow it and hold fast to it, and fights God’s wars, he may be presumed to be the Messiah. If he succeeds in building the Temple on its place and gathering the dispersed of Israel, he is certainly the Messiah, and he will repair the entire world so that it worships God together…If he does not succeed, or is killed, then know that he is not the one promised in the Torah…Do not entertain the notion that in the days of the Messiah, anything will be canceled from its way in the world or there will be new works of creation, but the world will continue as it always has…Our Sages said that the only difference between the current world and the days of the Messiah will be service to the kingship of Heaven…There are those among our Sages who say that Elijah will herald the coming of the Messiah…One must not [try to] calculate when this will take place; our Sages say: ‘Blast the bones of those who so calculate;’ they should wait and believe.”

In our view, the Messiah will be a flesh-and-blood human being and not a divine or semi-divine being. The Messiah will re-establish the Davidic monarchy (as Maimonedes describes) and eventually die, passing the crown onto his son. We will know him by what he does, not by who he says he is. What he does will prove his geneological lineage (since only the Messiah will be able to do these things).

jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm is a very good introductory read to the Jewish concept of the Messiah.

Catholic Dude, you posted:

Bad day for the Steelers…

Tell me about it; see forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=419338#post419338.

About that calling the Torah “The Law” stuff I ment no disrespect.

I know that!

I gotta run (gotta take Naor, 4, to the doctor). I’ll answer your questions later today.

Be well!

ssv

See also “Why Jews Don’t Believe in Jesus” & “Jews for Jesus” by Rabbi Shraga Simmons at tinyurl.com/37qc2 & tinyurl.com/697ge.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Naor’s fine apart from a garden variety ear infection. 'Tis the season.

So…

1)So for the Dead Sea Scrolls, I have heard that there is something wrong with them. Like that there are differences in text and are not really authentic?

I don’t know very much about the Dead Sea scrolls (even though I worked at the Israel Museum, where they are kept, see imj.org.il/eng/shrine/index.html, as a security guard/medic-on-call from 1991-1993). I refer them as the “Heretics’ Scrolls” since, from the standpoint of traditional, normative Judaism, that’s what their authors were. They above link has lots of info about the scrolls.

2)I see that Pharisees accept “Mostly Free will”. This could open a can of worms, but what does this mean? In the sense that God could make a person do anything nobody really has full free will, but I am guessing that is not what “mostly” means.

The Mishnah (part of the Talmud) says: “Everything is foreseen, yet free will is given. The world is judged with goodness, and all is according to the majority of deeds.” This torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter3-19a.html, this torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter3-19b.html and this torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter3-19c.html are a very good, 3-part commentary on the above citation.

I relegate the “our free will vs. God’s omniscience” debate to the category of things that are simply beyond our ken (see Deuteronomy 29:28 and Psalm 131:1-2) and are therefore not worth the Excedrin headache thinking about too much. I prefer to worry about the larger questions in life…such as why, WHY, WHY the Steelers played like such wusses! :crying:

3)I saw how the Sadducees dont believe in angels? Are angels never mentioned in the first five books of theTorah?

That beats me too.

They’re mentioned lots of times.

1. What is the story of Jacob and the ladder to up to heaven(?) supposed to mean?

On a very superfcial level, the angels ascending & descending represent a changing of the guard of Jacob’s escorts.

In Genesis 28:16, Jacob wakes from his dream and says, “Surely the Lord is in this place and I knew it not.” One of the members of my synagogue commented on this once and said how often in our lives do we encounter the Divine, or some aspect thereof, but we do not see/hear/feel/know it because we’re too wrapped up in our own affairs and concerns. All we have to do is look around us, the Divine is everywhere. Where is that place, the one in which, “the Lord is”? Everywhere!

Go back to Lot in Sodom. Our Sages teach that the 2 angels erred in proclaiming (in Genesis 19:13), “…for we will destroy this place,” when they should have said, “…for God will destroy this place.” For this bit of lese-majeste, our Sages relate the tradition that these 2 angels were condemned to wander the earth until they rose back up to heaven on the ladder in Jacob’s dream, in Genesis 28:12 (which specifies that angels were ascending first. Our Sages say that the two angels were accompanying Jacob on his journey. They ascended to heaven on the ladder in Jacob’s dream & were replaced by two other angels.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

 

[neophyte]

ssv, you posted:

stillsmallvoice:

…The Messiah will re-establish the Davidic monarchy (as Maimonedes describes) and eventually die, passing the crown onto his son. We will know him by what he does, not by who he says he is. What he does will prove his geneological lineage (since only the Messiah will be able to do these things)…

Okay, I understand, but I don’t see how what Maimonedes said can best be taken as meaning what you say. It looks to me that his lineage is one of the things that Maimonedes said would be evidence required to prove that he is the Messiah.

I recall that in an earlier post you referred to moshiach ben David. I’ve heard that there has been some rabbinic discussion of moshiach ben Joseph, perhaps in the Mishnah. I think I have the passages bookmarked at home (I’ll post them later if I do), but the gist of the discussion was that perhaps Messiah would come twice, and the first time he would die. Thoughts?

Glad to hear that Naor’s alright. Mine has an ear thing going right now too; thank God for antibiotics.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi neophyte!

This aish.com/literacy/concepts/The_Pre-Messianic_Era.asp is by the late Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan (of blessed memory; anything by Rabbi Kaplan is excellent, he wrote tons). He writes about Mashiach ben Yosef towards the bottom. lttn.org/R3_Article5_CountdownToRedemption.htm is also very good.

I hope that your son is OK. Our older boy, Yohanan, 8, also had repeated ear infections when he was younger. Finally we had tubes put in his ears. They really did the trick; we should have put them in much sooner (and not wasted time on, inter alia, some homeocrappic nonsense which had no effect whatsoever & merely prolonged his suffering).

Be well!

ssv

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Well after a busy week of school I got some more questions!

1)This might be one of those tought questions, but why was Cain’s offering unacceptable? I realized this when I was reading about agricultural offerings that were acceptable.

2)What does the blood of an animal signify in sacrifice? I know they put it above the door post “simply” because God commanded it, but is there another reason?

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi Catholic Dude!

You posted:

1)This might be one of those tought questions, but why was Cain’s offering unacceptable? I realized this when I was reading about agricultural offerings that were acceptable.

Genesis 4:3-5 tells us:

And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering; but unto Cain and to his offering He had not respect.

Our Sages note a subtle hint in the text itself as to why, “the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering; but unto Cain and to his offering He had not respect.” Abel offered up, “the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof,” i.e. he brought the very best of his flock, he didn’t just pick any old sheep, he selflessly brought his top-of-line stuff. Cain? He merely, “brought of the fruit of the ground,” i.e. he just pulled up some (ferinstance) carrots (maybe even some runty ones) and said to God, “Here, take it.”

Thus, “the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering; but unto Cain and to his offering He had not respect.”

2)What does the blood of an animal signify in sacrifice? I know they put it above the door post “simply” because God commanded it, but is there another reason?

I’ll cite The Jewish Encyclopedia entry on blood (tinyurl.com/5fvpp):

In addition to their natural aversion to the tasting of blood, the Jews had another reason for abstaining from it, which is indicated in Lev. xvii. 11, where God says: “I have given it [the blood] to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls.” God, in His mercy, ordained that blood should be a means of atonement; for which reason its place is upon the altar, and man shall not taste of it.

I think the point of bringing an animal offering was that it was a kind of substitute. You’d see its blood being dashed against the altar & realize that but for God’s mercy, it should be your blood that was forfeit, not that of the offering. You’d think about this & reflect on the reason for why you’re bringing an offering, if it was due to some sin on your part, you would be moved to repent and not do such a thing again. An offering that was unaccompanied by a contrite heart, sincere confession, etc. was less than useless. Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak Hacohen Kook (us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Rav_Kook.html) taught that, “The most significant part of the sacrifice was never meant to be the savoury smell of the burning meat, but the trembling sincerity of the human heart.”

As far as to why the blood of the Passover lamb in Egypt had to be smeared on the doorposts, try tinyurl.com/49ou2:

Exodus 12:6-7

The Torah describes how each Hebrew family designates a lamb, and sets it aside. On the evening of the Israelites’ deliverance from slavery in Egypt, they slaughter the lamb, roast and eat it. The lambs’ blood is placed on the doorposts of their houses as a sign that Israelites live in those homes.

The name Passover comes from this offering. When God kills the Egyptian firstborn, He passes over the homes whose doors are smeared with blood.

But can’t God tell who’s who without a sign?!

When oppressed people become free, they are frequently just as brutal as their erstwhile oppressors. It turns out that it is not oppression they objected to. They’d just prefer to be on the other end of the whip.

Society’s values implicate us unless we explicitly repudiate them. As a condition of their freedom, God demands that the Hebrews withdraw from Egypt and reject its values.

(This same idea helps explain why Noah had to shut himself up in an ark to escape the flood, and why Lot and his wife were told to walk away from Sodom without looking back.)

The Hebrews mark their separation from Egypt by going into their homes, shutting their doors, and marking them with the blood of their offering – the sign of their devotion to God.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

 

[Ghosty]

Catholic Dude: To add to SSV’s always excellent answers I just wanted to point out that the Jewish belief on blood atonement is the direct reason for the Catholic understanding of Jesus’ death on the cross, and precisely why the Body and Blood are offered on the altar at every Mass.

It’s one of those examples of when we can better understand Judaism simply by better understanding our own faith. The blood is sacrifice and substitutionary atonement for them in the same way it is for us. This is why Jesus was called by John the Baptist “the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” It’s a very good example of our roots in Judaism.

 

[AJane]

Help! A 5th grader asked me about why Jews in prayer rock at the wailing wall. We saw it on a video, and I haven’t come up with an answer, I would be guessing, I think it is a sign that they are deeply involved in prayer.
Any feedback to share would be appreciated.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi AJane!

Your guess is pretty close!

Proverbs 20:27 says, “The soul of man is the candle of the Lord.”

(Orthodox) Jews (myself included) have the habit of swaying/rocking the body during prayer (both seated & standing). This has been documented since ancient times (AJane, your fifth grader is in good company). In the Zohar (which is one of the main texts of Kabbalah, see tinyurl.com/6ydnt, scroll down to the section entitled “Jewish mysticism”), Rabbi Yossi asks Rabbi Abba: “Why is it that among all nations the Jews alone have the habit of swaying the body when they study the Torah?” Rabbi Abba answers: “It illustrates the excellence of their souls. Proverbs 20:27 refers to them: 'The soul of man is the candle of the Lord ’ The light of that candle flickers and wavers in unison with the light of the Torah.” (I’ve culled some of the above from The Jewish Encyclopedia.)

As per the foregoing, our swaying bodies, while we are at prayer, are like the dancing & flickering flame because, “The soul of man is the candle of the Lord.”

Proverbs 20:27 crops up in other ways too. Some of my Jewish friends will not blow out birthday candles. I have the following peculiar (superstitious?) habit: Every Friday evening (the eve of Shabbat, i.e, the Sabbath; see jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm) & holyday eve, DW lights 4 candles, one for each member of our family (some Jewish women light only 2 candles; others, like DW, light one candle for each member of their families) & says the appropriate blessing, ushering in Shabbat/the holyday. If one of the candles should happen to go out or be blown out (by wind, the air-conditioner, etc.), I will take care to re-light the candle Saturday evening (after Shabbat is over & it’s OK to light a fire) & let it burn itself out naturally. I’ll chip wax away from the wick & use however many matches I need to get it lit (we use little round candles that fit inside a clear glass candle-holder). When DW asked me why I do this, I told her that the candle’s destiny is to burn. If it cannot burn, it cannot fulfill its destiny. This disturbs something in one of the upper spheres; the resulting imbalance has to be righted somehow and that “somehow” might not be to my liking. I have to relight the candle & let it burn itself out naturally for the same reason why some Jews don’t blow out birthday candles. Why? Because, “The soul of man is the candle of the Lord.”

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Im back, I just got done reading the “sinat chinam” webpages. This seems like a recurring ‘theme’ throughout history. Also Why didnt he have the guy pay for half the feast? It seems like the best/worst option to do to an “enemy”. One of the pages mentions this, yet I dont understand why it wasnt done.

(Also this isnt a Mormon bashing page, but I was looking into them yesterday. Those guys claim that Jewish tribes came to America during the times of Isaiah! And they have their own story to tell! This was some disturbing stuff for me.)

I cant understand these kinds of statements:

The Talmud says in every generation in which the Temple is not rebuilt it is as though it has been destroyed. We have a chance still to reassert our unity and our common goals. We can reach out to the disaffected 75 percent and together commit ourselves to Israel and the Jewish people. Let’s seize that chance now before it’s swept away, and before famine grips the city of Jerusalem once again.

How are the 75% bad going to reunite to the 25% good? You do everything so that you can be the best Jew you can be and yet these 75% keep you down? They dont care? What happened to cutting off the seed of the wicked, or taking away the birthright/inheritance? This is as hard as getting Catholics and Protestants to unite! It seems like it can only be done by an act of God.

Up until the destruction of the 2nd Temple (and for a while afterwards), strict geneological lists were kept of priests & Levites. All those have long since been lost.

This reminds me of another question. In books like Kings and Chronicles, there are frequent statements about the kings like “are they not written in the annuls of king (name)?”. Are any of these records still around?

Also I read this on one of your pages:

The following parable characterizes Sinas Chinom: A king told a person, “Ask for anything you desire and I’ll give it to you, and to your enemy I’ll give double.” After thinking a while he said, “O, King, poke out one of my eyes.”

I have seen a different version of this story, in the one I read the man found a genie and he said that he would grant him 3 wishes, but he would double that amount for his enemy, so the guy on his 3rd wish asked to be beaten half to death. Well I know where the joke came from! (Even though this is no joke!)

Also you said the term " tzedek" means priest. Is the old Russian ruler title “tzar” related?

 

[AJane]

Hi Stillsmallvoice!
Proverbs 20:27 says, “The soul of man is the candle of the Lord.”
Love this Proverb.
(Howzat?

Thank you for the excellent answer, and for sharing your insight.

 

[Ghosty]

The Talmud says in every generation in which the Temple is not rebuilt it is as though it has been destroyed. We have a chance still to reassert our unity and our common goals. We can reach out to the disaffected 75 percent and together commit ourselves to Israel and the Jewish people. Let’s seize that chance now before it’s swept away, and before famine grips the city of Jerusalem once again.

Such statements bother me as well, but more because the Temple will be rebuilt on God’s timeline, not when people start waving a political flag. With all due respect to SSV, it’s important to remember that not all Orthodox Jews support Israel, and historically it was the Orthodox Jews who opposed it.