Questions about the Jews

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Catholic Dude, you posted:

How are the 75% bad going to reunite to the 25% good? You do everything so that you can be the best Jew you can be and yet these 75% keep you down? They dont care? What happened to cutting off the seed of the wicked, or taking away the birthright/inheritance? This is as hard as getting Catholics and Protestants to unite! It seems like it can only be done by an act of God.

It says somewhere in the Talmud that, “All Jews are responsible one for the other.” If my brother has backslid, then it is partly because I have not set a good enough example or have been too wrapped up in myself to do something about it. None may be written off. In a few weeks, we’ll read I Kings 18:1-18:39 as part of our Shabbat (Sabbath) readings. This is about Elijah’s showdown with the priests of Baal. 18:30-32 tells us how Elijah took great care and that he, “repaired the altar of the Lord that was in ruins.” The original Hebrew word, that is usually mistranslated as “he repared”, is vayirapeh, which literally means “he healed”. The use of this verb here is very unusual; this verb is usually used in reference to people only. Our Sages, who teach that nothing in the text of the scriptures is either incidental or coincidental, offer a wonderful commentary here. Just as an altar that has been been thrown down and is in ruins can be healed and restored to God’s service, so too can a person who is in a state of spiritual ruin be healed and restored to God’s service. Elijah took 12 stones, one for each tribe of Israel, even those tribes which were sunk in Baal worship and the gross immorality that went along with it, and used them to heal/rebuild the altar of God, to show that the people in the tribes, just like the stones, could be healed/spiritually rebuilt and restored to the service of God.

In books like Kings and Chronicles, there are frequent statements about the kings like “are they not written in the annuls of king (name)?”. Are any of these records still around?

Alas no.

Also you said the term " tzedek" means priest. Is the old Russian ruler title “tzar” related?

Tzedek means “justice” or “righteousness” (cohain means “priest”). The Russian “tsar” (“czar” is Polish) derives from “caesar” (just like the German word “kaiser” does as well).

AJane, you posted:

Thank you for the excellent answer, and for sharing your insight.

You’re welcome!

Ghosty, you posted:

Such statements bother me as well, but more because the Temple will be rebuilt on God’s timeline, not when people start waving a political flag.

You are entirely correct!

With all due respect to SSV, it’s important to remember that not all Orthodox Jews support Israel, and historically it was the Orthodox Jews who opposed it.

Correct, sort-of. The vast majority of modern orthodox Jews (like myself) do support the State of Israel. Modern orthodoxy is very pro-Zionist & very supportive of the State of Israel & has always been so. It is our ultra-orthodox ([haredi in Hebrew) brethren who span the spectrum of pro-Zionist, to non-Zionist, to downright anti-Zionist (even militantly so). But the ultra-orthodox world, particularly here in Israel, has , in recent years seen a shift from anti-Zionism more towards non-Zionism (although there certainly are plenty of militantly anti-Israel ultra-orthodox Jews). This has been partly due to events such as tinyurl.com/65txd which hit the ultra-orthodox community here very hard. A perfect illustration of this shift was the fact that in May 2003, a prominent ultra-orthodox Jew (Yehuda Meshi-Zahav, the founder of the ZAKA organization, the guys who pick up body parts after bombings & car accidents; they sent a delegation to Thailand after the trunami) was invited to light one of the torches kicking off Israel’s independence Day celebrations; the symbolism of this jewishinternetassociation.org/articles/ratzlav-katz_01jul03.html was not to be missed. Historically, ultra-orthodox opposition to the State was never monolithic (although it is the extremists who, being extremists, generate/d the most publicity for themselves & their views, with the media, being what it is, lapping it up); I cite Rabbi Avraham Karelitz’s modus vivendi with Ben-Gurion (tinyurl.com/4hd4f) & the fact that one ultra-orthodox party or other has almost always been in whatever coalition government happens to be ruling Israel at the moment.

Be well!

ssv *

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The Church had a feast day (The Presentation of the Lord) today, and the first reading reminded me of this temple rebuilding stuff.
It was Mal 3:1-4. “…the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple… he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.”
This reminded me of what you have been talking about. Now this might have some translation issues, but when it says “till they”, does this mean that they are doing something wrong now or that it cant be done right until he comes?
Also during the ceremony they offered two pigeons or turtle doves, how did they do this if the temple didnt exist when it was instated? Do they offer anything for the males nowdays?

I was reding that 1Kings 18 passage and then I looked up Jezebel on Jewishencyclopedia. From the way it sounded the King didnt want the baal idols but she required it. So why did he listen to her? Also it spoke of 1Kings 16 about her…but when I read to the end it says Hiel rebuilt Jericho, why did he do this? did it have something to do with idols?

Why is it called the “Land of Milk and Honey”? I know there is cultural reasons, and that those are luxury items, anything else?

Also what does the word “Selah” mean at the end of all those Psalms?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

(this is a test to see if my posts will show up when i update)

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

RSiscoe:

Jews are not individually guilty of the death of Jesus, but collectively. The Jewish race as a whole is guilty. Just as the human race suffers from the sin of Adam, so too the Jews as a whole suffer from the death their ancestors inflicted upon Jesus - “His blood be upon us and upon our children”: that prayer of the Jews was answered. Thus, collectively, they have been blinded to the truth.

[snip]

## The CCC:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a4p2.htm#598

**I. THE TRIAL OF JESUS **

Divisions among the Jewish authorities concerning Jesus

595 Among the religious authorities of Jerusalem, not only were the Pharisee Nicodemus and the prominent Joseph of Arimathea both secret disciples of Jesus, but there was also long-standing dissension about him, so much so that St. John says of these authorities on the very eve of Christ’s Passion, “many… . believed in him”, though very imperfectly.378 This is not surprising, if one recalls that on the day after Pentecost “a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith” and “some believers. . . belonged to the party of the Pharisees”, to the point that St. James could tell St. Paul, "How many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed; and they are all zealous for the Law."379

596 - See above

Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus’ death

597 The historical complexity of Jesus’ trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles’ calls to conversion after Pentecost.385 Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept “the ignorance” of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders.386 Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd’s cry: “His blood be on us and on our children!”, a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence.387 As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:

. . . [N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.388

All sinners were the authors of Christ’s Passion

598 In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that "sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured."389 Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself,390** the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone**:

We must regard as guilty all those who continue to relapse into their sins. Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross, those who plunge themselves into disorders and crimes crucify the Son of God anew in their hearts (for he is in them) and hold him up to contempt. And it can be seen that our crime in this case is greater in us than in the Jews. As for them, according to the witness of the Apostle, “None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” We, however, profess to know him. And when we deny him by our deeds, we in some way seem to lay violent hands on him.391 Nor did demons crucify him; it is you who have crucified him and crucify him still, when you delight in your vices and sins.392

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I was looking at a post that appeared today and you directed him to one of your old posts on a different thread here is what i saw:
On one post you said that the Messiah would die and his son would take his place. die? what good is that? take his place? isnt there one and only one? I dont recall seeing this anyplace I read the urls that you had concerning the Messiah, but I dont see where in the Bible or anyplace else (oral maybe?).Wont this lead to another Davidic kingdom that will sooner or later follow with other kings and the same path of “destruction”?

This might just be me loosing my mind again, but here goes:
Another url (you posted it, but i cant find it now) talked about a crash course in Paul/Christianity, I read it, but at the bottom it had a new lessson about Islam (with more “history” on multiple pages). I was surprised that Islam was such a good thing in the eyes of the writer! Its like they were sent from heaven to save the Jews. There was almost no hint of war/murder which is how it took hold in the first place. All those quotes of hating the Jews in the Koran.They accept Jesus as a good person. If he thinks that Christians stole the Old Testament what about the moslems? They outright plegiarized and took credit for it, they denounce the Jews as perverters of what God originally said! Most of all they hate the Jews more than any group for the longest time. They teach this. What about them and the state of Israel? What about building a shrine over the old temple site? Its like he doesnt see whats going on today. This was supposed to be a history lesson, and I admit there was a lot of blood on peoples’ hands, but it was also on both sides of the aisle. One side wast the anti-semite and the other the savior and the other the innocent bystander. Jew, Christian and Moslem each did wrong in that part of history. This was so slanted at anti-Catholicism I didnt know what to say. He also says that he gets a lot of emails from protestants, and he gives them the spiel to quiet them which they dont realize is actually a backhand to them.
Now with my temperature returning to normal I remember that post you said about all the slanted and biased stuff said about the Jews unjustly. I dont mean to attack, but I kept reading “lesson” after “lesson” and it just got my blood boiling. It must be a complex I have or something.

 

[Benadam]

Hello Catholic Dude,

I think the simplest answer to the first two questions is answered in the passage that describes Moses throwing down the tablets of the Law and breaking them. The Law was not followed by them from the beginning. Proved by Jesus when He taught they added their own traditions to it. The truth is that not all Jews acted like or would have approved of the People of God that lived within them, proven by the fact that when one was called into public ministry they were killed.

The answer to the rest of your questions is God’s promises requires the miraculous for their maintenance amongst the Jews.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

It’s 23:43 here & my synapses are starting to short out. :yawn: Please excuse me but I’ll be back online either Saturday evenng or Sunday afternoon (Israel time).

Be well & good night!

ssv

 

[SouthCoast]

No offense, but Hitler wasn’t a Christian. Hitler hated Christians. Had he succeeded in the war, we were next. Hitler detested religion in general. Hitler was not operating on any kind of Christian or psuedo-Christian motive in the killing of Jews.

-Michael

manualman:

This is the false basis of everything HITLER did.

 

[Exporter]

This is a quote from RSiscoe : “Here is God: "The Jews who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men” (1 Thes 2:14-15).

Is God an Antisemite? Or is the truth a little too hard for many to accept?

I looked in all three of my Bibles and there it is, just as you read above. This is Paul writing, a former Jewish Official. Did he tell the TRUTH? Evidently he did. His Book was accepted as inspired.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Exporter:

This is a quote from RSiscoe : “Here is God: "The Jews who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men” (1 Thes 2:14-15).

Is God an Antisemite? Or is the truth a little too hard for many to accept?

I looked in all three of my Bibles and there it is, just as you read above. This is Paul writing, a former Jewish Official. Did he tell the TRUTH? Evidently he did. His Book was accepted as inspired.

I thought this subject was closed, we got the message, thats not the point of this thread. This is old news, its been posted about 10/100 times this thread, its like beating a dead horse.

 

[ahimsaman72]

SSV,

I’ve watched this thread with interest and learned much about your faith. I just want to kiss up a little bit to you and tell you I admire your honesty and respectful answers to many questions - some of which were hostile. Peace be with you…

Shalom

 

[Peace-bwu]

RSiscoe:

Jews are not individually guilty of the death of Jesus, but collectively. The Jewish race as a whole is guilty. Just as the human race suffers from the sin of Adam, so too the Jews as a whole suffer from the death their ancestors inflicted upon Jesus - “His blood be upon us and upon our children”: that prayer of the Jews was answered. Thus, collectively, they have been blinded to the truth.

However, individual Jews often do convert to the truth. When they do, they make some of the best Catholics. Gentiles are the “wild branches” that have been grafted onto spiritual Israel; but the Jews are the “natural branches” (Romans 11). The most natural thing for a Jew to do is become Catholic. When they resist the truth they are acting contrary to their nature and to God. Therefore, we should encourage them to embrace the truth; we should not lead them to believe that the Jewish religion, which no longer exists, is “salvific” for them.[/QUOTTE]

I believe, although some corrupt leaders and people, were responsible for the death of Jesus, all of HUMANITY is responsible because it was the freedom to choose to do evil present in the human race that killed Jesus. We are all responsible every time we hate, kill, put our will above Gods, every time we refuse to give to the least of His people we are responsible because we are turning against Him. The point is, His own people turned against Jesus. We are his own people now, do we always follow Him or do we ever turn, if even for a moment and need to be reconciled?

 

[Peace-bwu]

This is an awesome thread, much needed here. How can we understand our Catholic Faith witout fully understanding our Jewish roots??? I am fascinated to learn more about the present-day Jewish faith and I am really glad Stillsmallvoice is here, thank you. Please keep sharing your knowledge, and point of view! Warm cyber-fuzzies to you!

We need more understanding in this world, especially in America where *all *of or neighbors are various religions.

Peace Be With You !

 

[Peace-bwu]

SouthCoast:

No offense, but Hitler wasn’t a Christian. Hitler hated Christians. Had he succeeded in the war, we were next. Hitler detested religion in general. Hitler was not operating on any kind of Christian or psuedo-Christian motive in the killing of Jews.

-Michael

There is presently a documentary out about how the Nazi leaders were “into” the occult. They belived that they were descendants of a superhuman race from the lost city of Atlantis, they believed that the race from Atlantas had superhuman powers and a few escaped and interbred with Nordic people and Germans descended from that. They were trying to cleanse the gene pool. They thought the purer the gene pool, resulting in blue eyes and blonde hair, the closer they would get to that superhuman race with superhuman powers. I have studied the Nazis many times in college history requirements but this documentary sheds light on where they got the concept for a superhuman race to begin with. I never had a clear understanding of where their occult beliefs origonated from, they were only using Christianity in propaganda., this connedted the dots for me. In the books I had read it always said they were “connected or delved into the occult” but the information I had never explained what that was, specifically. It is creepy to think we have the Disney movie, “Atlantis” and it sounds so similar.

 

[Peace-bwu]

stillsmallvoice:

Roman Catholicism & orthodox Judaism (despite our rather obvious differences) have much in common. Our views on many ethical & moral issues are similar. But beyond that, ours are faiths with rules, with authority & structure & with discipline. Ours are not make-it-up-as-you-go-along faiths & never have been (I suppose Protestantism & Reform Judaism are like that). Rather than mold the faith to fit the individual, I think that we believe that it is the individual who must mold him/herself to fit the faith. The late former Chief Rabbi of the British Commonwealth, Lord Immanuel Jakobovitz (of blessed memory) once said that a faith which demands nothing is worth nothing. To be an orthodox Jew demands a great deal & I have learned to be a Roman Catholic is similarly very demanding.

I agree with you on this point, and will be reading the sites you posted for hours tonight, thanks for the information, this is very reason why I like the Catholic Answers forums! Please keep posting despite the few apparently more anti-semitic members. I have never met an anti-semitic Catholic, but I must have been sheltered by a loving community!

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Peace-bwu & ahimsaman72, thank you for your very kind words!

Let’s see, Catholic Dude, you asked about selah. I read to you from the appendix (authored by A. Tobias) of my little paperback Hebrew-English psalms (tinyurl.com/6gm27):

A challenging term is the famous selah

. To begin with, the traditional sense “forever” is very difficult to maintain, since what would this mean in Psalm 81:8? It occurs in Habakkuk 3:3, 3:9 and 3:13. (…). This word deserves a dissertation on its own, but again, as this Appendix promised brevity, only an attempt will be allowed. The root of the word suggests “lift up” and this root is known to us apart from other sources in Isaiah 57:14. It could, in music, mean louder (forte) or a directive to the accompaniment of higher voices (…). It might refer to a very important feature of any musical piece - the pause. (…). To render it as a change to a higher octave is tempting - but the octave in a technical sense was not then acknowledged; it was, of course, a natural musical habit in any form or system of music. Selah found as it is with the word higayon in Psalm 9:17 the conclusion is evident that it is musical in connotation. (…). Higayon is obviously a musical term suggesting the use of some sort of harp(Psalm 9:17 and Psalm 92:4)…

A book on the Torah that I have (tinyurl.com/65nwj) also says that selah is some kind of musical notation. When we realize that the Psalms were sung by the Levitical choir in the temple, this makes alot of sense.

On one post you said that the Messiah would die

and his son would take his place. die? what good is that? take his place? isnt there one and only one?

Well, since in our view the Messiah will be an entirely human king, it stands to reason that he will eventually die & pass the crown of the re-established Davidic monarchy onto his son.

Wont this lead to another Davidic kingdom that will sooner or later follow with other kings and the same path of “destruction”?

No. The re-established Davidic monarchy will endure until the end of days.

Another url (you posted it, but i cant find it now) talked about a crash course in Paul/Christianity, I read it, but at the bottom it had a new lessson about Islam (with more “history” on multiple pages).

You mean this aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/ in general & this aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_42_-_The_Rise_of_Islam.asp in particular. I’ve just re-read the foregoing & didn’t think that Rabbi Spiro (the author) was unduly favorable towards Islam (see the section entitled “Mohammed and the Jews”).

quote]This was so slanted at anti-Catholicism…

If you pull out specific items, I’ll do my best to respond/comment.

Also during the ceremony they offered two pigeons or turtle doves, how did they do this if the temple didnt exist when it was instated? Do they offer anything for the males nowdays?

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

Well, prior to the First Temple, we had the Tabernacle, which was set up at various places (Gilgal, Shiloh, Nob, Gibeon) in the Holy Land until it was brought to the Temple (I Kings 8:3-4/II Chronicles 5:4-5), which superceded it (templeinstitute.org/rebuild_the_tabernacle.htm).

As far as offerings for males, we have a ritual called pidyon haben (“redemption of the son”) for first-born boys (who aren’t priests or Levites); see jewfaq.org/birth.htm#Pidyon.

You asked about Ahab & Jezebel. Ahab fascinates me. A friend of mine here made a very good (I think) point once. He compared Ahab to Ahasuerus and Jezebel to Haman. He said that Ahab & Ahasuerus weren’t down-in-their-souls-evil like Jezebel & Haman were. Ahab & Ahasuerus lacked a moral compass, a spiritual backbone, which is bad in itself, but it’s not the same as the out-and-out malicious evil of Jezebel & Haman. When Jezebel & Haman told them to do bad things, they did bad things. When Elijah & Mordechai got them to do good things, they did good things. Ahab asked Naboth for his vineyard. Naboth refused. What did Ahab do? Went home & had a snit. He would never have dreamed of framing Naboth on a completely trumped-up charge, killing/murdering him and taking the vineyard. But he was only to happy to accept the vineyard when Jezebel did just that. Elijah told Ahab & Jezebel to send the priests of Baal & Asherah to Mt. Carmel for showdown. Ahab did what he was told (Ahab always did what he was told by a stronger personality, be it Elijah for good, or his wife for evil) & sent the priests of Baal. Jezebel refused to send the priests of Asherah & then told Elijah that she would kill him (something which Ahab would never have done). (Ahasuerus would never have dreamed of massacring all the Jews but let Haman go ahead & arrange it. Then when Esther & Mrdechai told Ahasuerus to change course, he did so. Like Ahab, he would do whatever a stronger personality told him to do, whether it was for good or evil.)

About Hiel & Jericho, see ou.org/TORAH/tt/5763/kitavo63/navi.htm.

I have a volume of I & II Kings with the comments & explanations of our Sages at home. I will look up I Kings 16:34 & see if it sheds more light on the issue & get back.

Why is it called the “Land of Milk and Honey”? I know there is cultural reasons, and that those are luxury items, anything else?

See ohr.edu/tw/weinbach/loveland/lland013.htm.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I looked on Jewish Encyclopedia as best as I could for these, but I didnt get far. Especially when it didnt load some of the pages.

1)Where do the Jews say Mesopotamia was? It sounds like the area in between the Tigris and Euphrates, is this right? One of the places JE said was babylonia. So this brings up another question… If the place where the Garden of Eden was is also the place where they were taken as slaves, what does this mean?

2)Song of Solomon-I dont understand this book at all. So what is it saying?

3)How did the Jew end up in Egypt as slaves in the first place, werent they welcome at first by Joseph?

4)Why did Elijah get take up to Heaven? Did he go to Heaven?
Why didnt this happen to people like Moses and Isaiah?
One of the things that always bothered me was that Moses was not allowed to go into the Promise Land, I know I have no room to talk, but it just seems like he had to put up with the Jews behavior and got the short end of the stick in the end.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

One more quick question that I remembered.

About that “eye for an eye” saying. You said it is not supposed to be taken literally? It seems like a fair rule to me. How else is the criminal supposed to be punished? You cant pay someone $1000 dollars and expect the hurt person to be ok with it. What if the person cant compensate the victim?

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi Catholic Dude!

Lessee here…

You posted:

1)Where do the Jews say Mesopotamia was? It sounds like the area in between the Tigris and Euphrates, is this right? One of the places JE said was babylonia.

Correct & correct.

So this brings up another question… If the place where the Garden of Eden was is also the place where they were taken as slaves, what does this mean?

I’m very leery about debating issues like “where the Garden of Eden was” and other issues having to do with pre-Abram/Abraham Genesis; see my Jan. 11 post (#68) above.

It’s after 22:00 here & I’m starting to suffer from synapse fade. :yawn: I’ll be back tomorrow.

Be well!

ssv