Questions about the Novus Ordo Mass.

[Cable]

What do you mean by “cell texting”… …are you saying during the Mass???

A true liturgical abuse needs to be gently reported so it can be adjusted. However, my understanding is that altar girls or boys (up to the discretion of the Bishop to allow) and Communion in the hand or on the tongue are all acceptable. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not a huge fan of some of the changes you cited either because, to me, they appear to diminish/downplay the awesomeness and reverence for Jesus in the Eucharist. And, also am still waiting to like the idea of altar girls, unless they’re aren’t enough boys. Have read too many priests cite they “heard the call” through this experience. I also wonder about the presence of girls here as not always being helpful and see it as possibly contributing to problematic ideas for some Catholics. Either way, like it or not, though, they stand.

Even though my family was taught, in R.E., to only receive Communion in the hand, they have each revisited this way and have come away from it convicted to receive Him on the tongue. In all fairness, the program should present both means of receiving.

If you don’t go to Eucharistic Adoration, I suggest you take a look. You can kneel on the floor, or lie prostrate and express the prayers and deepest devotions of your heart, face-to-face.

If you have suggestions, such as altar servers not wearing flip-flops, shorts, while serving Mass eek: Really!!! Do we have to say it??? ) then have you expressed those to the Pastor - I commend you if you’ve tried to raise the bar, because a person can’t be too reverent.

There’s a lot you can do as a father, education-wise, to be sure that your boys learn the fullness and richness of the teachings and history of The Church.

 

[po18guy]

“When we insist on a better way we become Protestent.” Is that not what Vatican II is?

No.

 

[JM3]

This is all true, and would be 100% relevant to the discussion if all the changes listed in the OP were MANDATED, not simply allowed, or merely tolerated. If the Bishops come out and say “Communion in the hand (or altar girls, or whatever) is theologically great, and here’s why:” then OK…

If a king says to do something a certain way, then, the next day, says to do it another way. Who must he justify the change to?

And who is the better servant, the one who accepts the change cheerfully or the one that throws up his hands and walks away mumbling?

 

[Armor_of_Light]

If a king says to do something a certain way, then, the next day, says to do it another way. Who must he justify the change to?

And who is the better servant. The one who accepts the change cheerfully or the one that throws up his hands and walks away mumbling?

Good point. You may be right. I suppose it depends on the nature of his kingship and what kind of subjects he desires.

Thank God and the Holy Spirit that the 2 forms of receiving communion are valid. Perhaps there would be less mumbling if there were not (for the sake of this discussion) 2 valid liturgies. Or…would…there…?

 

[po18guy]

If a king says to do something a certain way, then, the next day, says to do it another way. Who must he justify the change to?

And who is the better servant, the one who accepts the change cheerfully or the one that throws up his hands and walks away mumbling?

If we have the patience, the Church’s course is being corrected and the proper implementation of Vatican II is coming about. The mumbling (murmuring) has been going on for decades - yet our Lord condemned murmuring. Obedience produces unity while murmuring produces doubt, discouragement and division - the weapons of the evil one.

 

[McCall1981]

If we have the patience, the Church’s course is being corrected and the proper implementation of Vatican II is coming about.

Pope Benedict recently said basically this same thing.

I suppose it’s happening, but it is indeed veeeeeeeeery slow

 

[Armor_of_Light]

If we have the patience, the Church’s course is being corrected and the proper implementation of Vatican II is coming about. The mumbling (murmuring) has been going on for decades - yet our Lord condemned murmuring. Obedience produces unity while murmuring produces doubt, discouragement and division - the weapons of the evil one.

Very good point. You call it mumuring or grumbling, which the Lord condemns. Did not the apostles and disciples question things? I’m speaking for myself here…but also I’m sure for a sizeable number of people…when I say it’s more ‘questioning’ than ‘murmuring’. At least, that’s how it is intended. I have not found a way in the written word to convey the difference between the 2 without spelling it out every time!

Earlier…I did have some legitimate questions that have gone un-answered.

 

[OraLabora]

But the question is: what are YOU doing about it? Have you approached your pastor to volunteer for the choir? Have you offered to chant a weekday mass in Gregorian for starters? Have you gotten involved in your parish liturgical planning board to voice your concerns and ideas?

^^^This.

It’s more or less the approach I’ve taken. I sing in a schola that does Gregorian chant exclusively. The approach we’ve taken is to rotate around different parishes in the city we’re based in, once a month, exposing parishes to Gregorian chant. Alas lately I’ve been able to participate less due to a job change two years ago so in the last 2 years I’ve only participated fairly sporadically, a couple of times per season, but I’ve been with the schola for 10 years.

Our source of inspiration is a nearby Benedictine abbey where Lauds, Vespers and the Mass are all in Gregorian chant every day. It’s an OF Mass, celebrated versus populum, and with the option of communion in the hand, but is nonetheless very reverent, with Latin propers and Ordinary (+Greek) every day of the week, and Lauds and Vespers in Latin daily.

A couple of comments on the OP’s points. One, facing the people vs. facing East, in the Benedictine tradition the community dimension has had the priest facing the people since before Vatican II. Facing the East also wouldn’t work well with concelebration, a licit option. I’ve seen ad orientem with the OF though, in a Benedictine monastery in Italy. One has to consider that the parish experience is not the only tradition within the Church, before requesting that an option not part of their tradition is imposed on them.

Second point, communion in the hand. This is just a personal viewpoint, but I’ve done far more damage with my tongue in my life, than with my hand. Either way the Host is going to end up on my tongue. I honestly think it’s a personal preference. It’s not fair to say to orthodox Catholics that take communion in the hand are somehow doing something inferior. If it’s a licit option of the Church then charity suggests that one should simply do what one prefers and MYOB for those who do differently.

 

[po18guy]

This would be a great chance for some of the replys to explain the benefits of the things you list, since they are allowed. The humility and obedience you can foster by quietly submitting to the will of the people in matters of how the Mass is conducted is all we have been given so far. That is important, no doubt…but…there must be some other benefits that merit definition. I’m sorry I don’t have any further insight other that ask others for (name removed by moderator)ut.

Rather than the will of the people, it is the leadership of the Church hierarchy that determines just how the prayer (that the mass actually is) follows. If we have trouble with the manner in which the prayer is conducted, there are norms to be followed and Bishops to ensure that. First, is that we must pray, always and everywhere, for our Deacons, Priests and Bishops, as well as for vocations. The incessant complaining that we have heard for the past 50 years has done nothing except foster the shortage of clergy. I truly wonder just how has that helped.

 

[po18guy]

Pope Benedict recently said basically this same thing.

I suppose it’s happening, but it is indeed veeeeeeeeery slow

We are called to be as patient with the Church as the Lord has been with each of us.

 

[agnes_therese]

I am not trying to be rude, but I really don’t like being compared to Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi when I do accept what the Church teaches about the Mass, but what we get at your average parish is not the Mass that the council fathers intended.

I didn’t compare you to them. I asked you not to be like them in their “pick and choose” attitude. There is a difference.
I really don’t like being told that I don’t believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, just because I receive in a way allowed by the Church.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I’d argue that it’s due to culture. If you try to introduce these things you will get a backlash from many parishoners who wonder why the priest is separating himself from the people. Imagine if a priest tried to use Latin and say the EP silently! Many people today don’t understand these things because many people don’t have a great understanding of the Mass. How many people today would understand the difference between an altar and table? How many would understand the rationale for having the choir at the back of the church rather than the front? Our modern society is so radically opposed to the culture that the Church seeks that these things are jarring to many people. And so, since these things are not necessary, I think bishops would rather keep people around than celebrate with these extra symbols, despite their value. It’s unfortunate, but I am convinced that it’s true.

I don’t think it’s a good idea to have what happens at the Mass dictated by people who don’t understand it.

 

[paul11b]

I didn’t compare you to them. I asked you not to be like them in their “pick and choose” attitude. There is a difference.
I really don’t like being told that I don’t believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, just because I receive in a way allowed by the Church.

Well are you not picking and choosing? The ordinary way to recieve in on the tongue and kneeling, are you not picking and choosing to recieve in the extraordinary way? Perhaps you should pray not to divide yourself from Tradition, or maybe you’re comparing me to Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi because you feel that you are being like them by recieveing in the same way that they do, I don’t know. I don’t like being called a cafiteria Catholic because I accept the Traditions that have made thousands of saints and blesseds holy. God bless you!

 

[ProVobis]

This is just a personal viewpoint, but I’ve done far more damage with my tongue in my life, than with my hand.

I too, but only in English.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

I don’t think it’s a good idea to have what happens at the Mass dictated by people who don’t understand it.

It may not be, but what many priests and bishops have decided that it is more important to keep people in church than to have these symbols. It is not ideal, and I would like for solemn Masses to be more prevalent, but if simple Masses save more souls then so be it, as long as it is valid and licit.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

I too, but only in English.

Clever.

 

[OraLabora]

I too, but only in English.

Got you beat, I can do and have done as much damage in French as in English

 

[paul11b]

I think I decided that I am going to bring my concerns to my spiritual director and then obey whatever he says. Through my prayers and reading I think that this is the best thing I can do.

 

[TimothyH]

I think I decided that I am going to bring my concerns to my spiritual director and then obey whatever he says. Through my prayers and reading I think that this is the best thing I can do.

If you have a spiritual director then he has no doubt instructed you on prayer.

If he has not then shame on him and you need a different spiritual director. If he has then you know that the proper place to go with a “Crisis of faith” is prayer, not an internet message board.

I think your prayers are a wonderful place to go.

-Tim-

 

[Megan7]

I am not trying to be judgemental or rude in posting this forum. I just need some help and direction because everthing that I am about to mention causes me great spiritual anguish. I have problems determining God’s will, and I really need someone to explain to me why some of this stuff is allowed and why I should not be concerned about it. I have gone back and forth, thinking I should only go to Latin Mass, and then thinking the Novus Ordo was okay. I have even entertained the idea of attending an SSPX chapel.

I have read the Vatican II document Sacrosanctum Concilium (SC) which calls for reform of the Liturgy. I do not necessarily have an issue with the reform, or with the Novus Ordo Mass, but I have a problem with the way that it is celebrated. SC never calls for the Holy Eucharist to be distributed in the hand. I personally think that Eucharist in the hand is wrong, and there is all kinds of evidence to support that. Communion in the hand was an indult, which expired and yet it continued after its expiration. It was even started as an abuse and is a way to show that the person receiving does not believe that Christ is truly present.

SC also never called for the priest to face the people. Ad Orientum Mass is a way for the priest to lead the faithful to God. The Priest and the faithful all face God and it is obviously a sacrifice that is taking place. I have only ever been to one Ad Orientum Novus Ordo Mass and it is two states away from me so I can’t go to it whenever I want to, although I would if I could. When the priest faces the people the nature of the sacrifice is taken away and the Mass becomes more of a meal. And the priest is no longer facing God, it is as if we are there to worship ourselves.

SC also never called for female altar servers, it only called for Eucharistic ministers in unusual circumstances. It also said that there should be a period of silence, that Gregorian Chant should be the norm, and that the music shouldn’t take away from the sacredness of the Mass.

Almost every Catholic Mass that you go to every weekend goes against what SC say. The priest faces the people, the Eucharist is distributed in the hand, Eucharisitic ministers distribute communion in usual circumstances, there are female altar servers, guitars, drums, no silence, and there is basically never Gregorian Chant. When Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi received Holy Communion at the Pope’s Mass it was very disheartening for me. I don’t understand hoe Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi are Catholics in good standing but the SSPX are not. I am really having a crisis of faith about this, and I am a husband and a father of two boys with one more boy on the way. I want them all to go to Heaven so I want to follow Jesus the way he wants to be followed. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Will read this later on. Subscribing to thread. Thank you & God bless you