Questions about the Novus Ordo Mass.

[Rich_C]

It is good to read that you do not want to argue. It also amasses me how we all are so spiritually unique. I grew up going to the EF occasionally and I always found it Spiritually uplifting as well as the OF aka NO. I currently go to a Catholic Church that celebrates the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I am Spiritually uplifted with this Rite or “form” also. My reasons for choosing this Church are kind of varied but one of the biggest reasons is because I believed that I had a very close and intimate union with God and I made a promise to my unborn children that I would try to make available to them every opportunity that I could for God to establish an intimate relationship with them. The church I go to allows Confirmation and Reception of the Eucharist from the moment of Baptism. They call it the Holy Mystery of Christian Illumination. I wanted my children to be armed to the teeth the the power of the Holy Spirit as soon as I could and as often as I could. **What I found quite surprising when I started going to the OF aka NO was that they said and did things in their Liturgy that were the same or very similar. Maybe there is hope for that reunion after all.. **But they still do not allow communion and confirmation until the children are older. So I am with the Rite that I am because it meats our spiritual needs right now. Anyway just wanted to pray that you find your way to the Rite that offers you the Sacraments in a Spirituality that meats your needs and may your relationship with continue to grow and may the eyes of your heart mind and soul continue to be opened to the diverse unity that the Catholic Church is and may we all grow to perfect and appreciate all Rites and their forms. Please keep me in your prayers and may God continue to Bless you and hold in the palm of His hand as you continue your journey to Him…

Re: bold

From what I hear, the Ordinary Form has in many ways driven a new wedge between us and the Orthodox, but I hope someday that changes.

 

[simple_soul]

Re: bold

From what I hear, the Ordinary Form has in many ways driven a new wedge between us and the Orthodox, but I hope someday that changes.

I have not heard this. I am only sharing what I see when I go to the different forms and Rites. I do hope and pray for unity and the willingness on all our parts to open ourselves up to the possibility that something we hold to be true could actually be wrong or something we misunderstood so that we can acknowledge it, correct it and grow in Truth together so that unity in Jesus Christ may happen. I do not see it happening on this side of the grave but I do see it happening and I hope and pray for it all the time. So yes if what you have heard is true I hope and pray that changes too. I do believe in miracles so who knows. Maybe unity will happen sooner than later…

 

[choliks]

Re: bold

From what I hear, the Ordinary Form has in many ways driven a new wedge between us and the Orthodox, but I hope someday that changes.

I have not heard this. I am only sharing what I see when I go to the different forms and Rites. I do hope and pray for unity and the willingness on all our parts to open ourselves up to the possibility that something we hold to be true could actually be wrong or something we misunderstood so that we can acknowledge it, correct it and grow in Truth together so that unity in Jesus Christ may happen. I do not see it happening on this side of the grave but I do see it happening and I hope and pray for it all the time. So yes if what you have heard is true I hope and pray that changes too. I do believe in miracles so who knows. Maybe unity will happen sooner than later…

I’ve heard of this. Almost all of them came from former traditionalists who, because of their dismay in the changes in the Liturgy, transferred to the Orthodox Churches.

 

[Sirach2]

I just said that Communion in the hand was started as a way to show that the person receiving does not believe that Christ is truly present.
That is no longer the case, but that is the history of it, read Communion in the Hand by Fr. Juan Rodolfo Laise, which is sold on the FSSPs website, a Traditional group in full communion with Rome.

Are we to believe one priest’s opinion and place it above Church teaching? There is no proof that this was done for the reason you put forth, as alleged by this priest.

And to be clear, THE CHURCH DOES NOT TEACH COMMUNION IN THE HAND, THE ORDINARY FORM IS ON THE TONGUE AND KNEELING, COMMUNION IN THE HAND IS AN INDULT. God bless you!

The rubric for reception in the USA, whether in the hand or on the tongue, is STANDING. Kneeling is the exception, but it is permitted.

Here is the Papal celebration of the Easter Mass. Kindly note at 1:19 that there are equally as many who receive in the hand as on the tongue and all are standing. This is in ROME where the rubric of receiving in either manner is permitted.

 

[waanju]

I am not trying to be judgemental or rude in posting this forum. I just need some help and direction because ever7thing that I am about to mention causes me great spiritual anguish. I have problems determining God’s will, and I really need someone to explain to me why some of this stuff is allowed and why I should not be concerned about it. I have gone back and forth, thinking I should only go to Latin Mass, and then thinking the Novus Ordo was okay. I have even entertained the idea of attending an SSPX chapel. That would be wrong. Do NOT do that. Why don’t you find a nice, regular TLM parish, one fully united with the one true church without any irregular status?

I have read the Vatican II document Sacrosanctum Concilium (SC) which calls for reform of the Liturgy. I do not necessarily have an issue with the reform which is why you don’t agree with SSPX, or with the Novus Ordo Mass, but I have a problem with the way that it is celebrated no arguing there, there’s a LOT of abuse. SC never calls for the Holy Eucharist to be distributed in the hand. I personally think that Eucharist in the hand is wrong The eucharist was distributed in the hand in the very early church. If done with proper reverence and care, it’s fine (not that it’s always done with proper reverence). For example, I was told in elementary school that if I took communion in the hand (which I usually do, because I’m rather tall and we don’t have a communion rail and it would draw lots of attention and distract people from preparing to receive, among other reasons) I should thoroughly examine my hand for any fragment, and lick it if needed. In the past decade, I’ve seen fragments twice.(That freaks me out because other people don’t always look) Anyways, my point is that it’s possible to receive in the hand with reverence. , and there is all kinds of evidence to support that. Communion in the hand was an indult, which expired and yet it continued after its expiration. It was even started as an abuse and is a way to show that the person receiving does not believe that Christ is truly present. Really? “When thou goest to receive communion go not with thy wrists extended, nor with thy fingers separated, but placing thy left hand as a throne for thy right, which is to receive so great a King, and in the hollow of the palm receive the body of Christ, saying, Amen.” (Catechesis mystagogica V, xxi-xxii, Migne Patrologia Graeca 33)

SC also never called for the priest to face the people.Not arguing there Ad Orientum Mass is a way for the priest to lead the faithful to God. The Priest and the faithful all face God and it is obviously a sacrifice that is taking place. I have only ever been to one Ad Orientum Novus Ordo Mass and it is two states away from me so I can’t go to it whenever I want to, although I would if I could. When the priest faces the people the nature of the sacrifice is taken away and the Mass becomes more of a meal. And the priest is no longer facing God, it is as if we are there to worship ourselves.you have good points, but this is by far not the biggest abuse.

SC also never called for female altar servers okay, it only called for Eucharistic ministers in unusual circumstances I agree. It also said that there should be a period of silence, that Gregorian Chant should be the norm, and that the music shouldn’t take away from the sacredness of the Mass.All good points, but why not find a TLM? (you mentioned that it’s hard to find a solemn NO near you). Why go to an irregular SSPX chapel?

Almost every Catholic Mass that you go to every weekend goes against what SC say. The priest faces the people, the Eucharist is distributed in the hand, Eucharisitic ministers distribute communion in usual circumstances, there are female altar servers, guitars, drums, no silence, and there is basically never Gregorian Chant. When Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi received Holy Communion at the Pope’s Mass it was very disheartening for me. I don’t understand hoe Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi are Catholics in good standing but the SSPX are not The thing is, they’re not really. They shouldn’t have recieved communion. I am really having a crisis of faith about this, and I am a husband and a father of two boys with one more boy on the way. I want them all to go to Heaven so I want to follow Jesus the way he wants to be followed. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Okay, first things first- you’re confusing the rampant abuse with the NO mass as a whole. Now, I don’t want to argue that the NO mass has been THOROUGHLY abused (not that the TLM isn’t sometimes abused as well), but it’s still valid. That’s where SSPX goes wrong.
If you can’t find a NO mass that follows the rules, PLEASE stay regular and find a TLM parish. If you can’t find either, be a good example, try to get your local NO parish to become more reverent!

 

[Southern]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I understand that the breaking of the bread was done by passing the bread from hand to hand and never placing it in another’s mouth.

Having said that, it felt weird coming back to Rome about 2 years ago and seeing this practice (Eucharist in the hand), more so since I was an altar boy and I had to use the long arm plate thingy to put under the people’s chin in the event the Holy Host fell from their mouths.

Christ instituded the Eucharist amongst his apostles. Their hands were consecrated. Only consecrated hands can touch the body of Christ.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Christ instituded the Eucharist amongst his apostles. Their hands were consecrated. Only consecrated hands can touch the body of Christ.

This is 100% incorrect!

A Deacon is an “ordinary minister of Holy Communion” and his hands are not consecrated.

Consecrated hands are for “confecting” the Eucharist, not for touching it!!
Please stop projecting what you believe to be true as Chruch law.

 

[Southern]

This is 100% incorrect!

A Deacon is an “ordinary minister of Holy Communion” and his hands are not consecrated.

Consecrated hands are for “confecting” the Eucharist, not for touching it!!
Please stop projecting what you believe to be true as Chruch law.

True and I am sorry, I should have been more specific or worded it differently. Please forgive me. Bottom line it should not be recieved in our hands. This is how it was since the begining of the Church till Vatican II changed it along with other things that changed that the United States caught the tail end of the changes. The changes took place from Rome and then spread though the rest of the continents one by one. The Vatican II counsil changed the Church to modernize it to the world in the 60’s. God does not Change. Neither should tradition.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

True and I am sorry, I should have been more specific or worded it differently. Please forgive me. Bottom line it should not be recieved in our hands. This is how it was since the begining of the Church till Vatican II changed it along with other things that changed that the United States caught the tail end of the changes. The changes took place from Rome and then spread though the rest of the continents one by one. The Vatican II counsil changed the Church to modernize it to the world in the 60’s. God does not Change. Neither should tradition.

This is not for you to determine. The Chruch has said it is acceptable.
Period.
End of discussion.
You may believe what ever you want to believe and receive how ever you want to receive, and unless and until the Chruch states otherwise, please allow others the same courtesy.

 

[Southern]

This is not for you to determine. The Chruch has said it is acceptable.
Period.
End of discussion.
You may believe what ever you want to believe and receive how ever you want to receive, and unless and until the Chruch states otherwise, please allow others the same courtesy.

The people are free to believe and do as they choose. I do not try to change their way of thinking by force but by a loving word and through prayer. But it is our duty to speak the truth as Christians and as Catholics. If your brother or sister is sinning would you not speak to them or try to reason with them. Hmm… Do you know that if you remain silent you suffer the same fate if not worse as them? Not to mention you spend the rest of your life wondering what if?!? Evil thrives when good people say nothing. This is a forum to get opinions and whatever else comes of it. I simply state the facts of research on our faith and where it originated…From Christ himself. I do show obedience to the Church but to Christ first. Because Christ doesn’t Change. People do. God Bless!!!

 

[thewanderer]

The people are free to believe and do as they choose. I do not try to change their way of thinking by force but by a loving word and through prayer. But it is our duty to speak the truth as Christians and as Catholics. If your brother or sister is sinning would you not speak to them or try to reason with them. Hmm… Do you know that if you remain silent you suffer the same fate if not worse as them? Not to mention you spend the rest of your life wondering what if?!? Evil thrives when good people say nothing. This is a forum to get opinions and whatever else comes of it. I simply state the facts of research on our faith and where it originated…From Christ himself. I do show obedience to the Church but to Christ first. Because Christ doesn’t Change. People do. God Bless!!!

I do hope you are aware that disciplines are changeable? That it is only teachings on faith and morals which do not change? The Pope was given the power and authority to bind and loose, and that includes the authority to change disciplines such as how we receive communion. You say Christ doesn’t change and compare that to the Church… so you believe that the Church changes? Does that mean you believe that Christ’s Church will not prevail to the end of time as Christ said that it would? Honestly I must say that I am a little confused by this.

 

[Sirach2]

The people are free to believe and do as they choose. I do not try to change their way of thinking by force but by a loving word and through prayer. But it is our duty to speak the truth as Christians and as Catholics. If your brother or sister is sinning would you not speak to them or try to reason with them. Hmm… Do you know that if you remain silent you suffer the same fate if not worse as them? Not to mention you spend the rest of your life wondering what if?!? Evil thrives when good people say nothing. This is a forum to get opinions and whatever else comes of it. I simply state the facts of research on our faith and where it originated…From Christ himself. I do show obedience to the Church but to Christ first. Because Christ doesn’t Change. People do. God Bless!!!

The underlying assumption is that your brothers and sisters are “sinning” and you are obliged to inform them, but according to your much misunderstood interpretation of truth. What about the Christ who said, “He who hears YOU (the Church), hears ME.”
You cannot set the Church aside, believing you are more correct than the Church He founded.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Christ instituded the Eucharist amongst his apostles. Their hands were consecrated. Only consecrated hands can touch the body of Christ.

Source please.

 

[agnes_therese]

The people are free to believe and do as they choose. I do not try to change their way of thinking by force but by a loving word and through prayer. But it is our duty to speak the truth as Christians and as Catholics. If your brother or sister is sinning would you not speak to them or try to reason with them. Hmm… Do you know that if you remain silent you suffer the same fate if not worse as them? Not to mention you spend the rest of your life wondering what if?!? Evil thrives when good people say nothing. This is a forum to get opinions and whatever else comes of it. I simply state the facts of research on our faith and where it originated…From Christ himself. I do show obedience to the Church but to Christ first. Because Christ doesn’t Change. People do. God Bless!!!

Are you saying that the Church has approved a sin?

 

[Southern]

I do hope you are aware that disciplines are changeable? That it is only teachings on faith and morals which do not change? The Pope was given the power and authority to bind and loose, and that includes the authority to change disciplines such as how we receive communion. You say Christ doesn’t change and compare that to the Church… so you believe that the Church changes? Does that mean you believe that Christ’s Church will not prevail to the end of time as Christ said that it would? Honestly I must say that I am a little confused by this.

The Church will prevail and the Head of the Serpent Crushed. The darkness will come to light in the entire world. Bind and loose is to the sins. The only sins not forgiven are the ones commited against the Holy Spirit. I do believe that the Church changes and it took a big change in Vatican II. The Devil is in the Church as well as the world as secular groups are within the Church which will be removed shortly by the swift handl of God. But The Body of Christ will prevail which is the Church!

 

[Southern]

The underlying assumption is that your brothers and sisters are “sinning” and you are obliged to inform them, but according to your much misunderstood interpretation of truth. What about the Christ who said, “He who hears YOU (the Church), hears ME.”
You cannot set the Church aside, believing you are more correct than the Church He founded.

We are to tell our brothers and sisters. I do not claim to be higher than the church but I am a part of it as so are you all. Christ said “he who hears the Truth hears my voice.” I state facts which is in the Church’s history. Please feel free to look it up! God Bless!

 

[Southern]

Are you saying that the Church has approved a sin?

What I have stated is the history of the Church. Most do not realize the changes. Speak to the elderly and see what they tell you about the changes. Those who were old enough to understand the changes of the Church. The Church is run by man. Man has error. Only the man who is in the Holy Spirit can change the church. The Pope! Vatican II was a consel that changed the laws of the Church to what we know today. There is much Greed in our beloved Church for power and money and I feel that this Pope will rid of the ones who changed the Church by mans laws and not Gods laws. We need to go back to God’s laws. God Bless!

 

[CatholicGeek1]

This is 100% incorrect!

A Deacon is an “ordinary minister of Holy Communion” and his hands are not consecrated.

Consecrated hands are for “confecting” the Eucharist, not for touching it!!
Please stop projecting what you believe to be true as Chruch law.

While a deacon is an ordained minister, there hands are not consecrated, this is one of the reasons why they are unable to consecrate the Eucharist. However, as you have correctly pointed out, they are still an ordinary minister of communion.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

The people are free to believe and do as they choose. I do not try to change their way of thinking by force but by a loving word and through prayer. But it is our duty to speak the truth as Christians and as Catholics. If your brother or sister is sinning would you not speak to them or try to reason with them. Hmm… Do you know that if you remain silent you suffer the same fate if not worse as them? Not to mention you spend the rest of your life wondering what if?!? Evil thrives when good people say nothing. This is a forum to get opinions and whatever else comes of it. I simply state the facts of research on our faith and where it originated…From Christ himself. I do show obedience to the Church but to Christ first. Because Christ doesn’t Change. People do. God Bless!!!

But they are not sinning. They are following the rules and rubrics of the Church. Saying that they are sinning or doing something wrong is at the very least uncharitable.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

The Church will prevail and the Head of the Serpent Crushed. The darkness will come to light in the entire world. ** Bind and loose is to the sins**. The only sins not forgiven are the ones commited against the Holy Spirit. I do believe that the Church changes and it took a big change in Vatican II. The Devil is in the Church as well as the world as secular groups are within the Church which will be removed shortly by the swift handl of God. But The Body of Christ will prevail which is the Church!

Regarding the part in bold, this is not correct. There were two separate powers given to the Church to bind and loose and to forgive and retain sins. These are not the same thing!