Questions about when people get "saved"

[MT1926]

I think what you have presented here is wonderful. I can’t see how it is anything different than what I was taught fom little on up in my non-Catholic upbringing. It all requires personal action and is not the result of anything done by others on our behalf.

Thank you. I’m glad you liked it.

The only reason I presented it is because it seems we were having troubles defining the word believe.

If you’ve been following the conversation it goes.

tg claims John’s gospel teaches all we need to do is believe to be saved. There is nothing else said in the text of John 5:24. All it says is believe = eternal life. A guarantee of salvation. Nothing else is needed because the verse doesn’t say anything else. He even claims you can quit believing tomorrow and it doesn’t matter you’re still saved.

All I was trying to point out is we need the rest of the Bible to understand what the word believe means. From what I posted hear. The 1st commandment shows us that believe must also include honoring God. Honor and belief aren’t the same thing. Honor involves action on our part. There’s plenty of other things the Bible tells us must be included in our belief.

God Bless

 

[tgGodsway]

OK I read that verse and I’m sure we can both agree that it says eternal life will comes to “those who hear the word” and “those who believe”. I’m good with that. I have no problems. I’m not saying no this is wrong.

The thing I don’t agree with is you are saying this verse doesn’t mention water Baptism, therefore it is not necessary.

This I don’t understand because you also said…

tgGodsway:

I was always taught we should speak when the bible speaks, and we should keep silent when the bible is silent.

Well this verse is silent on water baptism. So why are you speaking and saying this verse proves that baptism isn’t necessary? That’s what is confusing.

No… I am being SILENT to the issue, just as John 5:24 is silent to it. By saying SILENT, I mean that I will not proclaim water baptism to be a condition for salvation. Why not? Because John 5:24 does not say so, along with all of John’s references to eternal life, do not say so.

Therefore I, along with John 5:24, are SILENT to IMPOSE such speech into the passage. I will not impose this idea even if my denomination says it is so. My loyalties must go beyond my denomination’s perspective over to what God’s word actually says about this. My loyalties are narrow in that God’s word comes first.

 

[tgGodsway]

All I was trying to point out is we need the rest of the Bible to understand what the word believe means. From what I posted hear. The 1st commandment shows us that believe must also include honoring God. Honor and belief aren’t the same thing. Honor involves action on our part. There’s plenty of other things the Bible tells us must be included in our belief.

God Bless

Honoring God is a fruit of belief. Of course you know that every fruit begins with a seed that must be nurtured, cultivated, guarded and protected from predators in order to come to maturity.

If the seed is not in this kind of environment, it will not produce the fruit desired. To honor God is to display His divine fruit, or a character trait that come from knowing and appreciating God.

Not every “believer” reaches this state. All maturity must be developed from a seed planted deep within our spirit at new birth.

 

[MT1926]

By saying SILENT, I mean that I will not proclaim water baptism to be a condition for salvation. Why not? Because John 5:24 does not say so, along with all of John’s references to eternal life, do not say so.

Therefore I, along with John 5:24, are SILENT to IMPOSE such speech into the passage.

Ok I think we are talking past each other and I really do want to understand where you are coming from. So before I respond I need clarification…

I’m not following you here. Are you saying you won’t proclaim water baptism from this verse because this verse is silent?

Which I would actually agree is logical.

or are you saying because this verse is silent it proves baptism isn’t necessary?

Which I don’t understand, why would every single verse in the bible need to contain every single detail about eternal salvation for it to be valid?

 

[MT1926]

Not every “believer” reaches this state. All maturity must be developed from a seed planted deep within our spirit at new birth.

Not following the seed analogy. Are you saying it’s possible to be a true believer without loving or honoring God?

 

[Anesis]

From my experience (I converted to Catholicism 3.5 years ago):

1. Joe Sinner answers the “altar call” and goes down to the altar where the preacher and usually some helpers will be waiting. They put their hands on the head of the sinner and tell the sinner to pray the “sinners prayer” which is something like this:
   Dear God,
   I know I’m a sinner, and I ask for your forgiveness.
   I believe Jesus Christ is Your Son. I believe that He died for my sin and that you raised Him to life.
   I want to trust Him as my Savior and follow Him as Lord, from this day forward. Guide my life and help me to do your will.
   I pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen."
   If the sinner prays this and is sincere, then you are “saved”, and can call yourself “a Christian”. At this point, if you have never been baptized, you need to do so. These types of churches usually have a giant pool under the stage and do baptisms of adults only (12 and older) with full immersion. Most say “in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” but some, especially Baptist, Nazarene, pentecostal, say stuff like “in the name of the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifier” which of course would not be considered a valid baptism in the Catholic Church. Now you are an official Christian, you get a Bible and bring it to church every Sunday morning, every Sunday night and every Wednesday night for Bible study.
2. You can get “saved” a lot of times and even Baptized many times. Anytime you’re feeling sinful, or if you have done the bad thing called “backsliding”. If you are “backslidden”, that means you have gone back to your evil life of cussing, drinking alcohol, smoking, having sex when not married or cheating on your spouse, stealing, lying, not coming to church every week, etc. Anything that breaks the 10 Commandments, and anything that breaks church rules will make you backslidden. When you feel the Holy Spirit come over you - maybe at a regular Sunday service, a Bible study, a revival, you can be “born again” and be “right with the Lord”. Baptisms are renewed a lot. Maybe you’re visiting the Holy land and want to be Baptized again because the Jordan River is right there, maybe you do it as a couple before you get married as a cleansing thing before your wedding (no premarital sex… ever) or maybe you just feel left out because they’re doing a giant baptism in the river at the church picnic.

I’m Catholic now and feel like I’m “home”, though I have different struggles with my faith due to some unique circumstances. But I’ve had a lot of experience with other faiths and am happy to answer any questions.

 

[Wannano]

From my experience (I converted to Catholicism 3.5 years ago):

1. Joe Sinner answers the “altar call” and goes down to the altar where the preacher and usually some helpers will be waiting. They put their hands on the head of the sinner and tell the sinner to pray the “sinners prayer” which is something like this:
   Dear God,
   I know I’m a sinner, and I ask for your forgiveness.
   I believe Jesus Christ is Your Son. I believe that He died for my sin and that you raised Him to life.
   I want to trust Him as my Savior and follow Him as Lord, from this day forward. Guide my life and help me to do your will.
   I pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen."
   If the sinner prays this and is sincere, then you are “saved”, and can call yourself “a Christian”. At this point, if you have never been baptized, you need to do so. These types of churches usually have a giant pool under the stage and do baptisms of adults only (12 and older) with full immersion. Most say “in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” but some, especially Baptist, Nazarene, pentecostal, say stuff like “in the name of the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifier” which of course would not be considered a valid baptism in the Catholic Church. Now you are an official Christian, you get a Bible and bring it to church every Sunday morning, every Sunday night and every Wednesday night for Bible study.
2. You can get “saved” a lot of times and even Baptized many times. Anytime you’re feeling sinful, or if you have done the bad thing called “backsliding”. If you are “backslidden”, that means you have gone back to your evil life of cussing, drinking alcohol, smoking, having sex when not married or cheating on your spouse, stealing, lying, not coming to church every week, etc. Anything that breaks the 10 Commandments, and anything that breaks church rules will make you backslidden. When you feel the Holy Spirit come over you - maybe at a regular Sunday service, a Bible study, a revival, you can be “born again” and be “right with the Lord”. Baptisms are renewed a lot. Maybe you’re visiting the Holy land and want to be Baptized again because the Jordan River is right there, maybe you do it as a couple before you get married as a cleansing thing before your wedding (no premarital sex… ever) or maybe you just feel left out because they’re doing a giant baptism in the river at the church picnic.

I’m Catholic now and feel like I’m “home”, though I have different struggles with my faith due to some unique circumstances. But I’ve had a lot of experience with other faiths and am happy to answer any questions.

I am happy you prefaced your content as being from your experience. Your experience has been quite different from mine even though our churches may be classified as similar. (I am guessing.)

I have never witnessed an adult rebaptism and do not relate to it at all. I am concerned that anyone looking to you for answers may not be given unbiased factual representation of what’s out there.

 

[Gorgias]

If I cannot prove born of water is an expression symbolizing natural birth, then I’d rather not conclude anything on that verse at all. It is better to have no opinion than the wrong opinion.

But there is one thing I definitely will NOT do, and that is to read-into the passage words that aren’t actually there on the page, like baptism.

And yet, you’re willing to read-into the passage words that aren’t actually there on the page, like ‘natural birth’.

It kind of reminds me of the recent debate where, somehow the word “brother” means cousin or relative, because of a Jewish custom that somehow should be applied to the Matt. 1 passage, but not so much the other parts of the N,T. …just the passages dealing with Mary’s children.

Actually, it applies to all the other passages that, likewise, don’t refer to siblings from the same mother (not just the ones dealing with Mary).

 

[tgGodsway]

Which I would actually agree is logical.

or are you saying because this verse is silent it proves baptism isn’t necessary?

Which I don’t understand, why would every single verse in the bible need to contain every single detail about eternal salvation for it to be valid?

No, that is not what I am saying. If water baptism is a CONDITION to be met, along with to “believe,” then let the word of God say so in at least two or three places of scripture. Upon the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be ESTABLISHED.

When someone comes along to say that water baptism IS needed as a condition to be met, but fail to show how God’s word actually says so, they have not arrived at the truth of the matter. They may come up with one obscure verse, but that is not enough, according to the way Jesus instructed us to build doctrine.

 

[tgGodsway]

Not following the seed analogy. Are you saying it’s possible to be a true believer without loving or honoring God?

YES that is true.

 

[tgGodsway]

Actually, it applies to all the other passages that, likewise, don’t refer to siblings from the same mother (not just the ones dealing with Mary).

no, sorry, but it doesn’t.

 

[tgGodsway]

And yet, you’re willing to read-into the passage words that aren’t actually there on the page, like ‘natural birth’.

You haven’t been paying attention to what I’ve been saying Gorgias.

 

[Edward_H]

Our salvation is completed when we die in grace.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Actually, it applies to all the other passages that, likewise, don’t refer to siblings from the same mother (not just the ones dealing with Mary).

no, sorry, but it doesn’t.

Right. 'Cause the reference in 1 John 3:15 about brothers really only means “brothers of the same biological mother” – after all, it’s A-OK to hate others, right?

And those being referenced in Hebrews 2:11-12 are really brothers and sisters of a single human mother, right?

Look… you can make that claim if you like. It just doesn’t hold up to the Scriptural evidence. We get it: you don’t want to assent to the claims that the Catholic Church makes about Mary. That doesn’t mean you get to make false assertions about Scripture, though…

 

[tgGodsway]

Thanks Anesis,

Your testimony was enjoyable to read. thank you… but I do not agree with most of what you said about protestant Churches, or better yet, how someone is saved. It is not as complicated as to walk down an isle and have people lay hands on you and have you confess your sins and confess Christ. I suppose all of those things are wonderful things to do.

But all that was needed was for you to simply “believe” in Jesus Christ. Nothing more, but nothing less. This belief will give you the free gift of eternal life and God will declare you Just.

Blessings to you,

 

[Gorgias]

No, I really have. Your claim is that your interpretation of Scripture isn’t correct because it’s your personal interpretation – it’s correct because it’s the personal interpretation of millions of other believers!

And, your claim is that the Catholic interpretation is wrong because it’s different than the person claims of millions of Protestant believers!

Yep… I’ve been paying attention well enough…

 

[tgGodsway]

No… I have said on this site, that context will determine how the word brother is used because that word is used as a biological brother, but also a spiritual brother. Context matters. In the case of Mary’s son, context matters. To impose a customary view, is unconvincing because I believe the scriptures are inspired by the holy Spirit who could have easily gotten rid of the word brothers and sisters and replaced them with a more general term life relatives.

But He deliberately, precisely, and accurately, used the words brothers and sisters in the context of immediate family.

 

[Gorgias]

context will determine how the word brother is used because that word is used as a biological brother, but also a spiritual brother. Context matters.

Not only “biological” (i.e., children of the same mother), but half-brothers and step-brothers as well.

I’ll bite: what kind of ‘context’ would you expect to find for those relationships, when they were described as ‘adelphos’ as well?

I believe the scriptures are inspired by the holy Spirit who could have easily gotten rid of the word brothers and sisters and replaced them with a more general term life relatives.

So now you’re second-guessing the Holy Spirit?

 

[MT1926]

No, that is not what I am saying. If water baptism is a CONDITION to be met, along with to “believe,” then let the word of God say so in at least two or three places of scripture. Upon the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be ESTABLISHED.

Where does the Bible say God has to repeat himself 2 or 3 times before we are to believe Him?

First of all where does the Bible say that believe “ONLY”? Like I already said numerous times I am not claiming you and I can be saved without believing. I’m just saying you never defined what believe means. From some of your responses it sure seems like you are defining it as a mere mental assent on our part?

I’m actually starting to wonder if you understand why John wrote his gospel and who he was writing it to?

Just a curious question. John’s gospel wasn’t written until about 80 or 90 AD, 40 to 50 years after Matthew and Mark wrote. If we read Matthew and Mark, every time Jesus tells us how we are to gain eternal life he never once says we just need to believe.

So if we were to hone in on only Matthew’s Gospel wouldn’t this disprove the need to believe in order to be saved?

I’m just curious how do you balance Jesus teaching between Matthew, Mark and John without ignoring something?

When someone comes along to say that water baptism IS needed as a condition to be met, but fail to show how God’s word actually says so, they have not arrived at the truth of the matter. They may come up with one obscure verse, but that is not enough, according to the way Jesus instructed us to build doctrine.

Can you please point to me where Jesus instructed us to build doctrine? Better yet could you please point me to the verse where Jesus instructed the Apostles to write anything down?

The Bible speaks about Baptism pretty much non stop, so I figured I should at least point to one verse.

21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

I can’t find any obscurities in this verse, seems pretty straight forward to me.

Basic 5th grade English teaches us that we use commas to set off nonessential words, clauses and phrase that describe who, that, and which. So if we were to remove the nonessential words in these verses Peter’s straight forward, non obscured, teaching would be.

Baptism now saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

I’m sure you will put the nonessential words back in, to find a way to obscure this verse, but any 5th grader will argue that you are wrong.

God Bless

 

[tgGodsway]

Where does the Bible say God has to repeat himself 2 or 3 times before we are to believe Him?

Have we not gone over this?.. The SUM of THY word is TRUTH. Ps. 119:160 NASV In other words, when you gather all the added parts of any given subject, and find the common message shared, you, then, have arrived at truth. According to Ps. 119:160

Jesus said it another way, "Upon the mouth of two or three witnesses, … this means two are three other people are saying and concluding on the exact same thing on any given subject, then that word is established. Lifting a verse here and a verse there does not mean you have the truth on anything.

But I’ve already covered this with you, didn’t I?