Questions about when people get "saved"

[Reuben_J]

I can just use my own personal bias and read into the passage what think it means or what I want it to mean, or what my Church says it means.
But none of this means I have found the truth on it (and yes that is my opinion and I stand by it!) without seeing this subject in a larger context and by using other voices or witnesses to help support the idea.

MT1926:

This does not says anything about 2 or 3 witnesses being able to “establish the truth”. It’s saying unless you bring 2 or 3 witnesses don’t even think about speaking. If we keep reading to verse 17 it tells us the exact same thing Jesus reaffirms in Matthew 18. The witnesses have ZERO authority to establish truth. They must appear before the Lord, before the priests and the judges. OR as Jesus says it…tell it to the church.

Verse 18 tells us who has the real authority to decide what is truth…the judges (Deuteronomy) and the Church (Matthew 18)

You are trying to give yourself, or your millions, authority over scripture when you have none.

Yep, we need to find the truth. It is not from individuals trying to get it all on his own but from the source of the truth - the Church, which has higher credibility that us as individuals.

 

[Gorgias]

And Gorgias can spin the word belief all day long, it still means to believe or to trust. I’m not impressed with his insinuation that belief is something more than that.

Not my “spin”. It’s the literal definition from the normative dictionary for Scriptural Greek. If you want to disagree with Strong’s, be my guest. Just realize that you’re taking on the standard for Biblical Greek… and its assertions have a bit more standing than yours.

 

[tgGodsway]

You are trying to give yourself, or your millions, authority over scripture when you have none.

This is laughable Reuben, I do have authority over scripture, whether you like it or not, but only as I interpret correctly what the Apostles said and meant. I am a member of God’s holy Church, and I answer to my local Shepherd and to my savior Jesus Christ

 

[tgGodsway]

Oh my goodness Gorias. Persuasion is a means to and end it is not the end. After I am persuaded I may arrive at belief. But belief is still belief. I too have the Strongs concordance view and agree with them.

 

[Reuben_J]

May I know what is your church and who is your local shepherd?

 

[Gorgias]

If water baptism is a CONDITION to be met, along with to “believe,” then let the word of God say so in at least two or three places of scripture. Upon the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be ESTABLISHED.

They may come up with one obscure verse, but that is not enough, according to the way Jesus instructed us to build doctrine.

The thing is, that isn’t “how Jesus instructed us to build doctrine.” That, my friend, is a tradition of men to interpret it that way. How did Jesus tell us to know what He taught? By listening to the apostolic teaching: “Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”" (Mt 28:18-20)

Again, Peter reminds us of this: “recall the words previously spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and savior through your apostles.” (2 Peter 3:2)

So, is this something for you to discern, yourself, based “on two or three witnesses”? No… it remains the province of apostolic teaching: “you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for your benefit, [namely, that] the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly earlier. When you read this you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to human beings in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit… Of this I became a minister by the gift of God’s grace that was granted me in accord with the exercise of his power. To me, the very least of all the holy ones, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the inscrutable riches of Christ, and to bring to light [for all] what is the plan of the mystery.” (Ephesians 3:2-9)

So… no “on the testimony of two or three”, but rather, in the following of apostolic teaching.

Baptism, likewise, has many citations. First and foremost is Jesus’ command, quoted above, in which teaching and baptism is what makes a person a disciple of Christ.

What makes us one Body in Christ? “We were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body” (1 Cor 12:13), such that we “are Christ’s body” (1 Cor 12:27).

But maybe baptism isn’t important. Maybe it’s just something that’s nice to do, that simply washes us. Peter disagrees: “[Noah’s flood] prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God.” (1 Peter 3:21)

(Incidentally, in my Bible, the verse referenced at Mt 18:17 is 1 Cor 5:3-4 – “I … have already, as if present, pronounced judgment on the one who has committed this deed, in the name of our Lord Jesus: when you have gathered together and I am with you in spirit with the power of the Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man … so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.” So, the “two or three” referenced there is lived out by Paul in Corinth as a means of adjudicating a dispute.)

 

[MT1926]

Just because I can find a verse in the bible that says, “baptism saves” doesn’t settle the matter. Is that water baptism? Is that Spirit baptism? Is that a baptism with fire? Is that a baptism unto repentance? All of these baptisms are found in scripture. Which one did you have in mind, and how so?

Let’s find out.

Here’s my post that you did not respond to earlier, so I’m guessing this is the one you are claiming doesn’t tell us what kind of Baptism.

The Bible speaks about Baptism pretty much non stop, so I figured I should at least point to one verse.

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

I can’t find any obscurities in this verse, seems pretty straight forward to me.

Basic 5th grade English teaches us that we use commas to set off nonessential words, clauses and phrase that describe who, that, and which. So if we were to remove the nonessential words in these verses Peter’s straight forward, non obscured, teaching would be.

Baptism now saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

I’m sure you will put the nonessential words back in, to find a way to obscure this verse, but any 5th grader will argue that you are wrong.

God Bless

Since you claim this verse doesn’t tell us what kind of Baptism let’s back up to verse…

20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

How was Noah saved? saved through water. The very next word is BAPTISM then it says… which corresponds to this.

Corresponds to what? To being saved through water.

So we have established that we are now talking about Water Baptism.

And what does Water Baptism do? Water Baptism now saves you.

I know you are going to say sure but it’s not repeated three times by three different people.

Unless you can point out where my interpretation of this verse is wrong, I will accept that as proof that you agree the Holy Spirit at least guided St. Peter to say it once.

God telling me once is good enough for me, I don’t need to put Him to the test.

God Bless

 

[tgGodsway]

The Church of Christ denomination all love you MT… They believe exactly what you believe about these verses. But surely you must be retired so that you have all this time on your hands to run me into the ground.

Well it has been a while since I’ve looked at these verses so I went ahead and found the passage and began doing what I always do. Apply good hermeneutics. First of all, I found the immediate context where Peter’s thought process began.

How is he using this word and this idea of baptism?
A new thought begins in verse 8 where he said, “Now finally, all of YOU, should be like minded . . .” They should be "sympathetic… love believers… compassionate… humble… not paying back evil for evil… etc… But Why?
Verse 9 says so that YOU can INTERIT a blessing.

don’t lose me MT… In Jewish custom an inheritance is always meritorious, unlike the way we Americans look at it. By good works you earn your inheritance, according to every reliable Jewish custom I have come across. And of course every first-born son receives a double portion of inheritance.

So Peter is exhorting his Christian readers (those who are already saved) to live for God. He goes on in verse 10-19 with an ever so slight progression in his thought to include the meritorious honors of suffering for Christ. As did Noah who suffered (v20) but because he endured it, his family was SAVED through the water. Noah and his family were delivered from evil men through water.

This example of deliverance through natural water is a type and shadow that “corresponds” to us who are in Christ. Using a similar example, if we study the water baptism of the nation of Israel, there are a few things to consider. The death angel passed over them when he saw the blood on the door post signifying a type and shadow of Christ blood at Passover. The death angel could not condemn them and in that sense, Israel was saved. But, it wasn’t until they passed through the red sea waters were they saved again (not from the death angel) but from the Egyptians. This was also a baptism or deliverance too.

But as Peter says, Baptism now saves=delivers, (NOT the removal of the filth of the flesh,) meaning not the physical dirt that will wash off your flesh with literal water, BUT… the pledge of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The baptism here has nothing to do with water in the way it did in Noah’s day or the book of Exodus. Why? … because Noah’s salvation was literal, and physical. It was a type or a picture pointing to a spiritual truth not natural. What is spiritual baptism?

Paul said it this way… " For we were all BAPTIZED=soaked by one Spirit, into one body." 1st. Cor. 12:13

Notice Paul’s words here, The holy Spirit was the baptizer, who soaked us (spiritually) into water?.. no… into the BODY of Christ. This baptism may or can be reflected by a physical or literal baptism, but that wasn’t his point.

When Peter said Baptism now saves… the context is clear, it saves the Christian in terms of a clear conscience before God.
Who was he talking to? His Christian audience.

 

[Gorgias]

When Peter said Baptism now saves… the context is clear, it saves the Christian in terms of a clear conscience before God.

Who was he talking to? His Christian audience.

Wow. Just… wow. Masterful piece of eisegesis there, @tgGodsway.

You’ve just taken a text that clearly speaks of salvation (σῴζει) which is for “us” (i.e., Peter’s audience) through baptism (βάπτισμα), and turned it into “saving a Christian’s conscience”? And worse, it’s not important because he’s talking to Christians?

Seriously?

I mean, c’mon… nowhere in the Bible is it our conscience that is saved – it’s us, as persons! When the Scriptures mention salvation, it’s pretty clear what they’re talking about. Baptism, then, is what makes it possible for us to make the appeal (ἐπερώτημα) to God for salvation. How is that possible? Literally, the word that’s being translated as “conscience” is σύν-οιδα, a together-knowledge – we come “toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ”. Through baptism, which saves us, we can now truly know God through the resurrection of His Son.

And yes, this is addressed to Christians – after all, who else but Christians are “being saved” by baptism?

 

[MT1926]

The Church of Christ denomination all love you MT… They believe exactly what you believe about these verses.

Don’t know who this is or what they believe, but I’m just happy to be loved.

But surely you must be retired so that you have all this time on your hands to run me into the ground.

Nope self employed. I work about 65 hours a week though so I have down time through the day between patients. Wife 5 kids. Take care of my parents and their house 3 to 4 days a week. Moved my in-laws into my guest house, but my Father in-law just passed away so it takes quite a bit to keep an eye on the mother in law. But even with all of this I make sure and give a couple hours a day to study and dialogue about scripture.

I apologize if it seems like I am running you into the ground. That is not my intention. I am not here to change you way of thinking, only the Holy Spirit can do that. I have a duty and an obligation, to my fellow Catholic, who might come across these posts. I am here to guide them. When I see someone pulling verses of scripture out of context I have no choice to point out how the verse is to be interpreted and WHY? I’m not doing it to run you into the ground I do it so anyone reading here, who is not well grounded in the Faith, can see how easily a verse is interpreted, instead of what you posted above, which is impossible to follow or understand.

I think Gorgias summed it up nicely…

Wow. Just… wow. Masterful piece of eisegesis there, @tgGodsway.

You’ve just taken a text that clearly speaks of salvation (σῴζει) which is for “us” (i.e., Peter’s audience) through baptism (βάπτισμα), and turned it into “saving a Christian’s conscience”? And worse, it’s not important because he’s talking to Christians?

Seriously?

The only thing I would add. You seem to like going back to the Greek to tell me what certain words mean so I thought it might help you out if I do the same.

The Greek word “antitupon” is translated corresponds. This word means the “fulfillment of a type.” St. Peter here is telling us the flood is a type of Baptism. He is telling us the raging waters that cleansed the earth of wickedness prefigures the sacramental waters that cleanses the believer of sin. By faith Noah built the ark, passed through the waters of judgement and into a new life and a new covenant with God.

So too, Baptism is a Sacrament of Faith that brings believers through the Baptismal font onto a new life and new covenant with Christ.

 

[Gorgias]

The Greek word “antitupon” is translated corresponds. This word means the “fulfillment of a type.” St. Peter here is telling us the flood is a type of Baptism. He is telling us the raging waters that cleansed the earth of wickedness prefigures the sacramental waters that cleanses the believer of sin. By faith Noah built the ark, passed through the waters of judgement and into a new life and a new covenant with God

Yep. That seemed pretty clear in the text.

 

[tgGodsway]

Wow. Just… wow. Masterful piece of eisegesis there, @tgGodsway.

Really?.. what specifically is a case of eisegesis?.. be specific please. I simply quoted what Peter actually said. but please tell me exactly which verse or statement is off. and why?

 

[tgGodsway]

No problem MT. I too work at least 60 hours plus family. We have seven kids, but only three still live with us. I usually make statements on the run. I don’t like that but it is what it is. And I too, log on because I hear some of the comments about protestants and some of the conclusions made from scripture and I have a duty to God to interject.

 

[tgGodsway]

The Greek word “antitupon” is translated corresponds. This word means the “fulfillment of a type.” St. Peter here is telling us the flood is a type of Baptism

I agree with you and said this in my post. The Ark went through the waters and SAVED them from the flood. Noah’s salvation however, was literal and physical, not spiritual. It shows as an example of a spiritual truth concerning deliverance.

But Noah already believed in God and was in God’s family, he was not a lost soul. Eternally, he was already saved, but temporally, and for the sake of the type, God assigned him the task of building an Ark and getting into it.

 

[tgGodsway]

sacramental waters that cleanses the believer of sin.

What you call sacramental waters, I would call spiritual waters. The N.T. is a spiritual application of the O.T. types and shadows. This is why Paul said that the Holy Spirit would do the baptizing, and He would baptize US into Christ, not into literal water, as if water itself cleanses us from sin. Water does nothing of the sort, but only serves as a symbol pointing us to the spiritual realities of deliverance.

 

[tgGodsway]

Please give you your interpretation of 1st. Cor. 12:13. otherwise we will begin to talk over each other again.

 

[Reuben_J]

What is your church, tg?

 

[tgGodsway]

Through baptism, which saves us, we can now truly know God through the resurrection of His Son.

And yes, this is addressed to Christians – after all, who else but Christians are “being saved” by baptism

Gorgias, I understand why you object. You, as a RC begin on the premise that you are not totally saved (eternally) until, or unless God’s judgment is exercised over your life at the end of your life. Your state of justification becomes a process and a journey to which the judge has not yet slammed His final gavel to declare you eternally saved, or not. At least this is what I’ve been taught right here on this site.

Therefore, when you come across words like “baptism” or “salvation” you automatically assign these words to a very narrow and specific context. I do not. Most reformed groups do not.

I believe that the act of Justification is just that, it is when (in a moment of time when I hear and believe the gospel message) God in that moment declares me righteous as a gift and He bases His decision totally on the finished work of Christ who died for my sins. Therefore, I have been declared “RIGHTEOUS” and have spiritually entered eternal life. Though my body and my mind are dying, I am alive! This is why it is such wonderful news. It is good news that we are eternally saved. We never deserved it, yet God was rich in mercy and love.

However, even though my spirit is with Christ, I still need on-going salvation= deliverances (discipleship) from one level of obedience to the next. James called it the saving of the soul. He said, "receive with meekness the implanted WORD which is able to save your SOUL= TEMPORAL LIFE.

The writer of Hebrews basically said the same thing when he was rebuking disobedient Christians. He said, "we are not like those who draw back to destruction, but of those who BELIEVE to the saving of the SOUL= LIFE! Heb. 10:39

In both cases the writers were not talking about eternal life at all. Why? for one, they didn’t say so. The saving of the soul simply means just that. to deliver your life from one level of glory to a higher level of glory and obedience.

 

[James817]

Remember “I AM the Vine?” Jesus doesn’t seem to suggest once saved, always saved.

 

[Latin]

God bless you MT and TgGodsway and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Let’s see what the Scripture and the Catholic Church teaches on Baptism in the light of the related Theological facts.
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This knowledge might helps us to see as well, as God’s children called to eternal life the EXACT POINT when we are IRREVOCABLY SAVED.

In fact we are IRREVOCABLY SAVED AT THE MOMENT of our Initial Justification, [DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty). + Infallible teachings of the Trent.]
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RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT by James Akin.

Quote: Protestants who say, … Catholics believe we must do good works in order to become justified — a position which was explicitly condemned at Trent, which taught “nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification” (Decree on Justification 8).

Justification is the cause, not the consequence, of good works.

The Church teaches that we are made totally righteous — we receive 100% pure righteousness — in justification.

You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.

There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven.

One is saved the moment one is initially justified. End quote.
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The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.
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Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.
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THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
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