Questions about when people get "saved"

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OUR SALVATION IS NOT OUR CHOICE BUT IT IS GOD’S CHOICE
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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John 6:65; … no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.

John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, …
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The Grace of God’s Call (CCCS 1996-1998)
… This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming totally from God’s decision and surpassing all power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
"For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it."
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
"It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL."
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Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, "In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us." (#329.2)
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.
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Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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As you see MT and TgGodsway; our salvation is 100 % God’s choice and 0 % our choice.
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BAPTISM

To understand baptism first we have to understand our fallen spiritual position.
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OUR FALLEN SPIRITUAL POSITION
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a. We are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.
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b. We are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.
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c. We are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.
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d. We are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.
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e. We “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: we see it all as nonsense; it is BEYOND our UNDERSTANDING because it CAN ONLY be understood by the Spirit of God.” – 1 Cor.2:14.
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To be able to receive anything from the Spirit of God, FIRST we need new spiritual life.
This is sometimes called “Born Again.”
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Col.2:13; Explains:
“And you, BEING DEAD in your trespasses … He has made you alive, … having forgiven you all trespasses.” – This resurrection/born again and forgiveness of sins/justification, takes place at baptism.
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In our baptism, there is God’s part to do and our part to do.

God’s part to do in our baptism ALWAYS PRECEDES our water baptism.
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This is the point, sometimes confusion comes in the understanding of baptism.
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GOD’S PART TO DO IN OUR BAPTISM IS THE FIRST STAGE OF OUR SALVATION WHICH IS OUR INITIAL JUSTIFICATION
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GOD’S WORK IN OUR BAPTISM IN FINE DETAILS

The sequence of events of our baptism.
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1. GOD SANCTIFIED us. – At our sanctification God has completely washed us clean, made us holy (our spirit + soul). – 1 Cor.6:11; 1 Pet.2:9; etc.

We may call it our first purgatory as God completely washed us clean. – It was an instant event.
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1. God delivered us from the power of darkness and taken us (our spirit + soul) up to heaven. – Col. 1:13; Eph.2:6.
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2. In heaven God baptized us into the body of Christ. – 1 Cor.12:13, 27.
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3. In the Body of Christ God RE-CREATED us (from spiritual death, in Christ God made us spiritually alive, – 1 Cor.15:22; Eph.2:1). – At our re-creation God MADE us SONS of God and NEW CREATIONS / BORN AGAIN by given us a new heart, given us a new spirit and God put His Spirit into us – Ez.36:26-27; 2 Cor.5:17; 1 Cor.3:16; 1 Cor.6:19.
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4. God JUSTIFIED us. – At our justification God DECLARED us JUST and DECLARED us to be sons of God. – Rom.3:24; Rom.8:15.
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1. In heaven (our spirits + souls) God built us into His Holy Temple and God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. –Eph.2:6; Eph.2:19-22.
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AUGUSTINE’S CONTRIBUTION TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Quote: We are inserted into the Body of Christ by our baptism and become members united to the Head, so that while our feet may be on earth we are already in heaven. End quote.

The above quote taken from a public letter of Paul Maloney OSA, written September 19th 2012.
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BECAUSE IT IS A MYSTERY we may not yet fully understand the way it is possible that at the same time our (spirits + souls) is in heaven and simultaneously it is on the earth as well.
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All of the above works of God is an INSTANT EVENT, we don’t even realize it and in this work for three reasons we couldn’t even co-operate with the grace of God.
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First reason: At the beginning of our Initial Justification we were spiritually dead and we couldn’t accept anything from the Spirit of God. – This is our spiritual resurrection from spiritual death.
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Second reason: Our initial justification and born again in our baptism is an instant event.
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Third reason: The above work of God taken us to the state of grace.
Until we are in the state of grace we cannot make supernatural decisions or do supernatural merit.
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Meaning: Man does nothing and could do nothing, to enter the state of Initial Justification. – Because we were spiritually dead at the beginning and the end initially justified, born again, we are in the state of grace, in heaven God has built us our (spirits + souls) into His Holy Temple and God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, the whole process is an instant event.
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In the sequence of the events:
This is the point when God has given us His gifts of, faith, hope, charity, and obedience to God’s will and we are able to positively respond to it.

Because we are spiritually alive, initially justified, we are in the state of grace, in heaven we have been built into God’s Holy Temple and God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
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CCCS = Catechism of the Catholic Church, Simplified.

Explaining Justification
CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and obedience to God’s will are given to us.
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The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming totally from God’s decision and surpassing all power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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CCC 2019; Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
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John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”
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Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
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MEANING, man does NOTHING and can do NOTHING to enter the state of Initial Justification/Irrevocable Salvation.
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Apart from God first performs His part in our baptism we are spiritually dead and we “accept nothing from the Spirit of God.” – 1 Cor.2:14.
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Our Initial Justification (God’s part to do in our baptism) is solely God’s work/monergism and always PRECEDES our water baptism which is synergism, we are actively cooperating with the grace of God.
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This is the point, sometimes confusion comes in, because at this point (at our initial Justification) we are born again, initially justified, we are in the state of grace, we have been built into God’s Holy Temple and God made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus and we are not yet water baptized.
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We can say, our Initial Justification which is an instant event, is the first stage of our salvation and it is monergism, solely God’s work.
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Between our Initial Justification until we die is the second stage of our salvation which is synergism, we are actively cooperating with the grace of God.
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Sometimes it is a great distance between God’s part done in our baptism (we are Initially Justified, Born Again, we are in the state of grace, etc.) and we do our part of our water baptism.
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If some reason we are not able to do our part of the baptism that doesn’t stop God to do His part of our baptism which gives us initial justification, spiritual resurrection/born again and puts us into the state of grace and if we die enables us to go home to heaven. – And of course His part to do in our baptism, always PRECEDES our water baptism.
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If we die the next minute after God performs His part of our baptism we go INSTANTLY back home to heaven without our water baptism.
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Or with other words; our bodies goes to the grave and as our (spirits + souls) are already in heaven and in heaven already built into God’s Holy Temple and God made us our (spirits + souls) sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, our (spirits + souls) life simply continues in heaven. – Please read Col.1:13; Ehp.2:6; Eph.2:19-21.
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Of course after we die we will stand before God’s Judgment seat and according to the outcome of the judgment of our works (1 Cor.3:12-15) God will determine our position and glory in heaven.
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Of course as God called us to Eternal Life, we cannot lose our salvation, at the above Judgment our salvation is NOT AT STAKE. – DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty). + Infallible teachings of the Trent. .
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SUMMARY
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From the above theological facts it is obvious:
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The Catechumens are Catechumens because God already performed His part of their baptism and as the results, they are Initially Justified, born again, they are in the state of grace, members of the Body of Christ, IN HEAVEN they have been built into God’s Holy Temple and God made them sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, etc., otherwise they would be spiritually dead and they could accept nothing from the Spirit of God, they could NOT BE Catechumens.
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I speaking about the NORM, the same above principle applies to the “Altar Call” (in the Protestant Churches) of course for those who are positively respond.

They are positively respond because God already performed His part of their baptism and as the results, they are Initially Justified, born again, they are in the state of grace, members of the Body of Christ, IN HEAVEN they have been built into God’s Holy Temple and God made them sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, etc., otherwise they would be spiritually dead and they could accept nothing from the Spirit of God, they could NOT respond positively to the “Altar Call.”
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OUR SALVATION 100 % DEPENDS ON GOD AND 0 % DEPENDS ON US

PROOF TEXT AS FOLLOWS
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John 15:5; “… for without Me you can do nothing.”
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Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
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For us to be in the state of grace first we need God’s UNDESERVED grace of Initial Justification and the UNDESERVED grace of God’s call to Eternal Life.
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If God gives us the above UNDESERVED graces our Eternal Life is in God’s Home.

If God would refuses to give us the above UNDESERVED graces then our Eternal Life would be in hell.
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The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.
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Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.
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THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.
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FR. WILLIAM MOST TEACHES THE SAME ABOVE THEOLOGICAL FACTS

Tuesday, April 2, 2013 Fr. William Most.

What does the Catholic Church teach on Predestination?

Predestination is gratuitous: For even before God considers human merits, He predestines, and because the sole and total cause of predestination is the goodness and love of the Father which moves spontaneously WITHOUT stimulus, merit, or condition.

Meaning, man does NOTHING and can do NOTHING to enter the state of Initial Justification.
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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
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The Grace of God’s Call (CCCS 1996-1998)
… This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming totally from God’s decision and surpassing all power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.
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Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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God bless you MT and TgGodsway and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin.

 

[MT1926]

I agree with you and said this in my post.

OK we are getting somewhere. You agree that St. Peter here is telling us in this passage that Baptism is the fulfillment of the event of Noah being saved through water.

This is good we are on the same page.

Noah’s salvation however, was literal and physical, not spiritual. It shows as an example of a spiritual truth concerning deliverance.

OK. But how does this change anything?

In biblical theology, a type (which you agreed this is) is a person place, thing, event, or institution in Scripture that points to a future mystery. Well when we find these types in the Bible the one thing we come to realize is that the New Testament Mystery is always greater than the Old Testament person place, thing, event, or institution.

Romans 5:14 is a classic example: St. Paul shows us that Adam, who shaped the destiny of man for the worst, was a type of Christ, who reverses the tragic effects of sin by His righteousness. Adam thus showed us in advance how the saving works of Jesus, the New Adam, would affect the entire world.

St. Paul speaks about types again in 1 Corinthians 10.

Here he is interpreting the experiences of Israel in the wilderness as warnings or types of the Church’s experiences in the world.

This entire passage is a warning of losing ones salvation. They followed the Rock which was a type of Christ. Well Christ came and we follow Him. And He is greater than the Rock. But do not be deceived, do not put the Lord to the test. These types are written as warnings for our instruction. St. Paul actually goes on to warn them "Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall…You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

St. Paul is using typology to warn us that we have much more to lose than the Israelite did. He is telling believers here, who are eating at the Lords table. If you start sitting down with demons you are no longer welcome at the Lord’s table.

Finally, St. Peter uses typology once again to show us the flood is a prophetic type of Baptism.

Just like Christ is far greater than Adam…The salvation of Baptism would be far greater than it’s OT type the flood. So even you see it doesn’t really matter that Noah’s OT salvation was literal or physical because the NT mystery that the flood points to, Baptism would have to be far greater. Which would be “spiritual”, as you call it.

 

[MT1926]

This is why Paul said that the Holy Spirit would do the baptizing, and He would baptize US into Christ, not into literal water, as if water itself cleanses us from sin. Water does nothing of the sort, but only serves as a symbol pointing us to the spiritual realities of deliverance.

Not sure where you are going with this. I never said splashing physical water on someone does everything. I totally agree with St. Paul it is the Holy Spirit that does the Baptism. Think about it the Catholic Church freely agrees that non-Catholic Baptisms are Sacramental as long as they use proper form and matter. The form being In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and matter being water. The Church never claims it’s the Priest doing it. They never claim it’s the Holy water. Why would the Catholic Church accept…say a Methodist Baptism as valid unless they truly believed it is the Holy Spirit who Baptizes?

I think the difference between us is you think you can say OK Lord I believe enough you can go ahead and send the Holy Spirit over. You are basically saying it’s all on you. When you are ready, when you take the first step you will receive the Spirit.

I on the other hand say Lord I love you and I do believe. I know you love me, but what about the person who is scrupulous and is incapable of seeing your love. What about the mentally retarded who will never be able to fully understand or believe. What about my precious little babies who won’t be able to learn about you for years. How will they ever receive your Spirit. Jesus says fear not, I love you so much that I will give you a sign (a Sacrament) that you will know that you have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit. No longer will you have to worry whether you received the Spirit or not. Here you go Baptism them in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and I will be with you until the end of the age.

 

[MT1926]

Please give you your interpretation of 1st. Cor. 12:13. otherwise we will begin to talk over each other again.

As I already mentioned I totally agree with this passage. Yes we are all members of one Body (Christ’s Church). How do we become members of His Church? When we are Baptized. What happens when we follow Jesus instructions to Baptize? We receive the Holy Spirit. When all is said and done who did the Baptizing? The Holy Spirit.

This verse is telling us how we become members of the Body of Christ. By the power of the Holy Spirit through Baptism.

I especially like the end of this section because in the end this is where our entire argument stems from.

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

I’m hoping we both agree that we are both part of the body of Christ. Well St. Paul goes on to tell us that GOD appointed…first apostles, second prophets, third teachers…

So my question is simple. I define the “teachers” as the ones who are interpreting scripture. How do you know what you are teaching here, has been taught and handed down from one of these teachers St. Paul tells us was appointed by God?

I mean no disrespect here but as was already pointed out we are to test the Spirits. Well to me the test would be prove you are teaching what God appointed His teachers to teach. Like I said I have no intention of proving you wrong here. All I ask is you to honestly ask yourself have you ever asked anyone, who taught you what you are teaching, where their teaching comes from? Just keep in mind, logic dictates, if they say from the Bible then they are saying from THEIR interpretation of what the Bible says.

God Bless

 

[hope]

Neither does Paul who says he has run his race to the end.

 

[MT1926]

You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven.

I’m not sure how to respond to some of the things you have said?

Are you Catholic?

The reason I ask is because it sure seems you are picking and choosing what Jimmy wrote to form your own theology, and trying to pass it on as Catholic Dogma. If you are a Catholic you need to represent our faith with what was said in context and not pick and choose what you want.

This quote you point to is in reference to Jimmy saying …

In fact, this is one of the arguments in the Catholic case for infant baptism

When Jimmy says this, in context, the you is a baby after being Baptized. He is not saying this as a blanket statement about everyone.

Jimmy goes on to qualify what he is speaking of here

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

“Since the earliest times, baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit; children are baptized in the faith of the Church. Entry into Christian life gives access to true freedom” (CCC 1282).

And also:

“Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God . . . [And thus] The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant baptism” (CCC 1250).

Do you agree with both of these statements from Jimmy’s article as well?

continued…

 

[MT1926]

…continued

There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven.

One is saved (JIMMY IS SAYING IN CONTEXT AS A BABY) the moment one is initially justified.

Yes he says this but he qualifies what he says here by saying…

The only things one then does is good works because one loves God (the only kind which receive rewards) and not choose to cast out God’s grace by mortal sin. And even if one does cast it out by mortal sin, the only thing needed to get it back was the same thing needed to get it in the first place — repentance, faith, and sacrament, except the sacrament in this case is confession rather than baptism.

Jimmy never says one can not lose their salvation. You are picking and choosing from his words to make it sound like he does, and passing it off as Catholic teaching. Jimmy tells us right here we can cast out God’s grace (those words are what a Catholic understands is what we do when we lose our salvation) when we commit mortal sin.

He goes on to define what he means here…

People try to make the Catholic message sound complex, but it’s really simple: “Repent, believe and be baptized; then if you commit mortal sin, repent, believe, and confess. Period.” — even a five year old child can understand that.

In a Catholic context we believe mortal sin separates us from Christ. If we die in a state of mortal sin we can not inherent eternal life. From a human point of view we lost our salvation. From God’s point of view nothing was lost because He already knew we would turn from Him in mortal sin.

That’s why I will never agree with Once Saved Always Saved. Because the only possible way of saying you are OSAS is to say you are able to see from God’s point of view.

I really like how he says it here…

From a Catholic perspective, repentance, faith, and baptism are just as easy to get across in an evangelistic appeal as they are for Protestants; in fact, they are easier since one doesn’t have to explain, “Okay, repentance and faith are necessary, but baptism isn’t, but it’s still really important, and so you need to do it, okay?” On the Catholic view, the message of the elements we have to preach is much simpler: Repent, believe, and in the saving waters, receive the righteousness of God.

Of course, a Calvinist can say (as a Thomistic Catholic would say) that both cooperation in the giving and the embracing of the eternal call are themselves produced (not just enabled) by God’s grace, and this is perfectly fine.

A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation. No problem at all. End quote.

Not sure where this came from, it wasn’t in Jimmy’s article. Since I can’t read the context I won’t comment.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.

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Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

Did you read the beginning or just pull out what you wanted?

Predestination (Lat. prae, destinare), taken in its widest meaning, is every Divine decree by which God, owing to His infallible prescience of the future, has appointed and ordained from eternity all events occurring in time, especially those which directly proceed from, or at least are influenced by, man’s free will. It includes all historical facts, as for instance the appearance of Napoleon or the foundation of the United States, and particularly the turning-points in the history of supernatural salvation, as the mission of Moses and the Prophets, or the election of Mary to the Divine Motherhood. Taken in this general sense, predestination clearly coincides with Divine Providence and with the government of the world, which do not fall within the scope of this article (see Divine Providence).

At the very beginning it is stated that God’s predestination takes into account every event in our life , especially those which proceed from or are influenced by our free will.

Sure I agree God already knows whether or not we will be with Him in heaven when we die. I agree he knew this from all eternity. However, he also knew something that I do not know at this very moment. He knows if I will die in His friendship. Since He already knows this very fact it is not possible for me to claim I am eternal saved at this very moment, if in the end I will reject God.

If you kept reading the very section you quoted it goes on to define what that section means …

God’s infallible foreknowledge cannot force upon man unavoidable coercion, for the simple reason that it is at bottom nothing else than the eternal vision of the future historical actuality. God foresees the free activity of a man precisely as that individual is willing to shape it. Whatever may promote the work of our salvation, whether our own prayers and good works, or the prayers of others in our behalf, is eo ipso included in the infallible foreknowledge of God and consequently in the scope of predestination (cf. St. Thomas, I, Q. xxiii, a. 8).

Like I said earlier I’m not sure if you are Catholic or not. In either case the people reading what you write deserve to read what is written in context. For you to draw attention to certain text in the writing, especially when the author defines what he means, is not being 100% truthful.

If I had more time I would look up the other quotes you posted, but I’m sure what we found here pretty much shows the rest of the quotes are probably taken out of context as well.

God Bless

 

[tgGodsway]

James if you are referring to the passage in John 15, you must know that Jesus wasn’t dealing with once saved always saved. I will help you with this metaphor.

Jesus is in a figure of speech. The subject is “abiding.” What does it mean to abide? Okay… it means to remain: to stay with; to dwell with etc.

To abide in Him simply means to dwell with Him, or to remain connected to Him … then… He will remain connected to you. … (Jn. 15:5)

In Catholic theology this can only mean, abiding in Him eternally. Actually many post-protestant groups see it that way too.

The strict condition to abide would put anyone on edge. If I stop fellowshipping with Him, I will be cut off from the vine (eternally) and thrown into the fire.

The reason why it seems like a slam dunk for those who take this view, is because it is never considered that a believer can become a failing believer.

Is there a category of failing Christians? When I say failing, I mean they fail to live the Christian life to it’s full potential.
Does such a category exist in the scriptures. YES

This subject is actually harder for post-protestants to argue because they agree that salvation is by grace through faith, apart from works. Catholics on the other hand, easily use the “works” card here to make sense out of John 15.

So… what do we have here? We have a figure of speech. Okay… Is the Vine a figure of speech? Yes… Jesus is not a literal vine. 2nd. we have the branches. Are the branches a figure of speech? Yes, They represent Christians. Thirdly, we have the “fruit.” Is the fruit a figure of speech? Yes… I seriously doubt Jesus was interested in literal apples and oranges.

What is left? … we have this thing called to “wither.” to wither is to shrivel up like a prune. Is this a figure of speech?.. Yes… because it is unlikely that literal wrinkles would matter to God.

Okay… what’s left. We have FIRE. … Amazingly the fire is interpreted as hell fire automatically. In the middle of a figure of speech verse 6 is cherry picked for special treatment. It is said Jesus meant literal fire. This is what has been imposed into the passage by people who have a knee jerk reaction to any fire.

Any serious student who knows how to make a good interpretation knows that you violate the rules of interpretation when you cherry pick certain verses in the middle of a metaphor (without textual cause) to interpret literally.

Someone gave verse 6 special treatment without justification. In other words, they read into the passage an idea that did not come from the passage.

The failing Christian who refuses to abide in Christ will be cut off all right, but not in terms such as for eternity, but in terms of fellowship. The distancing between the failing Christian and God is not for eternal punishment, but for temporal discipline. He is thrown into the fires of testing and discipline. The word fire is still in a metaphor pointing to a burning up of what I would suggest is, self.

Does the bible have references on fire used as a discipline? Yes… you can go research it if you really want to know.

Blessings

 

[tgGodsway]

MT. I am at work now, but I have a request of you. I want to specifically answer all of your post but much of it is being passed by because of time constraints. Please do not add any more information to my address until I can sift through what you have already posted. This way I can slow down and thoroughly answer. Thanks. Hopefully tonight I can better address your questions about how I get my interpretation of PS.119.

 

[MT1926]

MT. I am at work now, but I have a request of you. I want to specifically answer all of your post but much of it is being passed by because of time constraints. Please do not add any more information to my address until I can sift through what you have already posted. This way I can slow down and thoroughly answer. Thanks. Hopefully tonight I can better address your questions about how I get my interpretation of PS.119.

I’ll do my best, but after reading your interpretation of John 15 you left me with so many more questions. It’s gonna be harder than a 6 year old waiting for Santa on Christmas morning.

 

[James817]

That is a first, that fire in this context doesn’t mean eternal fire if one doesn’t bear fruit.

Compare it to this:
You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit worthy of repentance. 9And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The ax lies ready at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
Another point I’d like to add. The purpose of being on the Vine is to bear fruit, just like the purpose of salt is to savor food.

Salt is useless if it has no flavor, just as a branch is useless without fruit.

And yes, I know that Scripture speaks of fire as a refiner. Refining is what is done with gold, just like how Jesus said the Father prunes every branch that bears fruit.

 

[tgGodsway]

If the pope says Mary was born sinless, … Really what do those around her have to say about it? What do the Apostles have to say? Can I get a witness? Who is it in the Divine record who agrees with the pope on this? … Oh… no one does? Too bad! We are the infallible church! Accept it. This is why there was reform.

You do realize how much of a hypocrite (a person who acts contradictory to his own rules or principles) this statement makes you look like don’t you?

You said to me this is the rule you apply when Catholics tell you what they believe

Okay MT. I guess I’ll start right here on this quote. I don’t have a problem with what Catholics say about their belief in Mary as one born sinless. The notion that I have a double standard is preposterous, I am no hypocrite. It is more about HOW they got that belief. By asking such simple questions as who were those of the first century inner-circle who agreed, is reasonable and responsible. And I do apply that same rule to myself. If I cannot prove it was something embraced by the apostolic circle, I need to reconsider why I believe it. And by the way, I have already crossed that bridge.

But let me get to this issue of Ps. 119:160, The SUM of thy Word is Truth. You say I did not explain how I got my interpretation and how the word, “WORD” is singular.

John 1:1 says that in the beginning was the WORD… that word became flesh, (v14). Singular. Jesus Christ is the WORD come into flesh. But today we have the written WORD. This does not mean that it involves just one word. This is common knowledge. The totality of the written WORD is all of what God has said. His WORD includes every single word beginning with Genesis 1:1 all the way to the last chapter of Revelation. I think you believe that. I can quote from God’s word using any passage, but by doing so, it does not mean that I have arrived at all of the TRUTH from that Word.

 

[tgGodsway]

CONTINUED FROM LAST POST TO M.T.

Truth comes from within the totality (or entirety) of God’s word once it is known and understood. But truth is broken down to various subjects. For example: We may find the truth on creation. We may find the truth about the fall of Adam. We may find the truth about eternal life etc. How do we find all of the truth from God’s Word? By searching all of God’s Word for the truth. (truth on any particular subject matter.)

Then there is the understanding that truth does not come from intellect alone, but as a revelation. The O.T. is a natural revelation imparted to a natural people, Israel. But this natural revelation, once known and understood, will point to a higher revelation, a spiritual revelation. Peter said, Thou Art the Christ, the Son of the Living God… well done Peter, FLESH AND BLOOD has not given this to you, but my Father in heaven… That insight came from heaven not from man. I’m sure you know that.

The N.T. on the other hand is a spiritual revelation imparted to a spiritual people who can spiritually enjoy it. In order to spiritually understand it, you must be spiritually born for it.

When the Psalmist wrote, The SUM of the WORD is Truth, It is commonly accepted that the WORD he’s talking about is the totality of it, from Genesis to Revelation. He’s using this word much like how John used it in John 1:1. In the beginning was the WORD, singular. Actually you can find this WORD, singular in many places of the New Testament,

If we interpret it to mean only one specific word, then we are left with the question. Which word would that be? …

CONTINUED FROM LAST POST TO M.T.

I hear your concern how I only gave my opinion that truth comes from adding up all of what God’s word has to say on any given subject. I suppose it is my opinion, but it is also a
theological deduction based on the word SUM and how it is used in other places of the bible. The psalmist took liberty to suggest that we must sum it all up if we want arrive at a truth.

Otherwise he would have said it something like this: Thy WORD is TRUTH, leaving out the word SUM. The word “entirety” is also translated from the same Hebrew word.

Honestly I can’t see any other way to interpret it,but will concede my point if you have a better answer. I stand on the premise that I have not arrived at a truth until I collect all of what God has said about that truth, whatever subject matter is in question.

Jesus said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. " Well the Jews knew the Law, or at least knew what the law said. But obviously they were not able to extract the truth from the law, otherwise they would have NOT rejected Christ.

I can hold up the bible and say, “I have the truth!” But holding up the bible only means that I have God’s WORD in my hands, literally. It can only be the beginning of my search for the truth. Only when I come to know and understand it from the totality of what God has said, will determine my own personal level of truth on any given subject.

 

[tgGodsway]

Normally I would have no problem giving out personal information about my Church. I love my home Church and love to promote it. But I made a promise to my wife I would not give personal information out on this site other than what is in my profile.