Questions about when people get "saved"

[MT1926]

If you want to use that verse to mean He who endures (whatever!) until the end shall be saved eternally, you actually complicate the entire subject.

It only complicates it in your mind not mine.

You accuse me of reading my theology into the text. But the thing is I am only reading the text in the context of the chapter. I’m not the one interpreting this text using rapture theology?

I’m not trying to be disrespectful here, I’m just showing you the words on the page. Does any of this make sense?

How can I be the one reading my theology into the text when the only thing I’m interpreting is the text?

And how can you not be reading your theology into the text when you out right admit it is impossible to understand this text without understanding rapture theology?

I understand you have to stick to your guns. I take no offense in that position. I’m just wondering why you would expect anyone to accept your reasoning on this text when you tell us you would never accept this same line of reasoning from us?

Once again if you would like to discuss Matthew 10 or 24 in the context of the Chapter, I would love to hear your interpretation.

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

Abraham saw the stars and believed God’s promises. As a result he was made Just. Where did sanctification play it’s part?

I think this is well covered in the Scriptures:

"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 **
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. "** James 2

Their seal of the Spirit must be broken by the merit or lack thereof, and the birth must be reversed.

This is not how we understand it tgG. The seal of the Spirit can never be broken, and the adoption is irreversible. But God will allow a sealed person to go through the Gates of Hell if they so desire. He does not force anyone to live with Him in eternity.

The gavel declaring their new standing of righteousness was revoked based on who’s work?

It is based on going from faith back to unbelief.

If Protestants treat it as an act of God based on the work of another, why is it all unraveled by the work of the sinner?

Catholics also treat it as unmerited grace, purchased for us by Christ on the cross. This is we baptize infants. There is no “work” that must be done to be born again.

It is not “all unraveled”, since there are certain events that cannot be undone. But one can fall from grace, after which,

Hebrews 10:29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?"

Their last state is actually worse than the first.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first."

So how about taking one of these enduring verses, forget everything you know (this way you don’t read your theology into the text) and simple read it in the context of the chapter. Then give me your interpretation of this verse as well as the 3 before it and the 3 after it.

I don’t think this is possible. I think the steeping in Calvanism has so altered the perceptions that it is not possible to step back and even “role play” seeing it another way. I suggested that a couple weeks ago, and I could not even hear crickets!

 

[tgGodsway]

What is meant by a “so called protestant Church”? is this related to being “post protestant”?

guanophore, … I’m sure you are aware that many of our protestant churches have drifted back towards a more Catholic view of salvation. I say they are so-called protestant, only to mean that on this narrow point of theology they reflect a more Catholic view. They have left the core of the reformation on these points and thus I call them post-protestant. Of course this did not happen yesterday. This theological drift happened many years ago and over time and through many post-reformers.

 

[guanophore]

many of our protestant churches have drifted back towards a more Catholic view of salvation

Ok thanks for explaining that. I generally think of “Protestant” as separations from the Latin Rite Church that are no longer in communion with the successor of Peter. Would you consider the original Lutherans "post-Protestant also? Luther retained the Catholic idea of “perseverance to the end”, as do Anglicans.

 

[tgGodsway]

The enduring is Christians not falling away from the teaching of the Apostles. The enduring is Christians not following false teachers. The enduring is not hating your neighbor. The enduring is not submitting to the lawlessness. In this context these Christians, that don’t do any of these things, will be saved.

Agreed! In the context of persecution, a Christian is commanded to endure false teachers, to endure the easy road of hatred toward their brother and neighbor. We are commanded to endure all forms of lawlessness. If we, (those who’ve received Jesus Christ and declared JUST, based on the finished work of Christ at the cross) will endure this, we WILL BE SAVED from this very persecution.

But Matthew had a very specific salvation=deliverance in mind. Obviously, not everyone who has endured persecution throughout history was delivered from it. Some people have given their very lives for the sake of the gospel. So how can Matthew say, those who endure (persecution) will be delivered=saved? knowing that some were not delivered and saved.

Only in a very narrow context can this apply. Matthew 24 and Mark 13 answer this narrow context with a specific response. Matt. 10 only highlights the one verse all three share.

Matthew shows the ultimate work of darkness personified in the appearance of the anti-Christ in the last hour, (Mt. 24:15.) The end result is that he will go after the bond-servants of Christ in a 7 year period and will overtake them. Actually he will go after them in the first half of the 7 year period but towards the end of the second half. But “he who endures to the end” of this persecution will be delivered from it.

“It was granted to him (anti-Christ) to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.”

Yet, Matthew says, “And He (Christ) will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” 24:31

v40 “Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. v41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.” v42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming."

It is in this context that the Matt. 24:13 salvation is understood.

 

[tgGodsway]

Great passage Itwin.

 

[tgGodsway]

Would you consider the original Lutherans "post-Protestant also? Luther retained the Catholic idea of “perseverance to the end”, as do Anglicans.

I would like to see that quote. It is my understanding that after Luther died, his successor (for a lack of better words) Philip Melanchthon, took the denomination right back in the direction of the CC. So that today, much has been compromised in the Lutheran tradition.

 

[tgGodsway]

Are you saying I will go straight to heaven despite my having sinned by insulting my younger brother and despite my not having repented of my sin before I died. If you are in the OSAS band, your answer will be “yes”. But I take it you are not with that group; so where does my soul go to.

opulumpu, the judgment over sin is passed. see John 5:24. There is no judgment to determine if one will go to heaven or hell. This is fiction and unsupported in scripture. But there are other judgments yet to come having to do with whether or not you did good works.

Those in Christ will stand before God and give an account of our works to determine the merit of our inheritance. Purgatory is not only unnecessary, but denied in scripture.

 

[MT1926]

If we, (those who’ve received Jesus Christ and declared JUST, based on the finished work of Christ at the cross) will endure this, we WILL BE SAVED from this very persecution.

I’m not following you here. How is one “SAVED” from a persecution after they already endured the persecution?

It makes sense to me if Jesus is speaking of eternal salvation but I can’t grasp the point you are making, that Matthew is speaking of being saved from the “literal and physical persecution”. Didn’t you just endure the persecution? If you were saved from the persecution wouldn’t that mean you didn’t have to endure it in the first place?

I’m sorry what am I missing here?

You said here…

So how can Matthew say, those who endure (persecution) will be delivered=saved? knowing that some were not delivered and saved.

Then you answered this question by saying…

Matthew shows the ultimate work of darkness personified in the appearance of the anti-Christ in the last hour, (Mt. 24:15.) The end result is that he will go after the bond-servants of Christ in a 7 year period and will overtake them. Actually he will go after them in the first half of the 7 year period but towards the end of the second half. But “he who endures to the end” of this persecution will be delivered from it.

“It was granted to him (anti-Christ) to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.”

Yet, Matthew says, “And He (Christ) will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” 24:31

v40 “Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. v41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.” v42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming."

It is in this context that the Matt. 24:13 salvation is understood.

I read this three times, I’m not seeing where the question you proposed of Matthew is answered?

Where does he tell us that those who endure the persecution will be saved from said persecution?

What is the context you are using for verse 15? Maybe that will help.

From my understanding this is a reference to Daniel 9:27, 11:31 & 12:11 which is a prophecy of the desecration of the Jewish temple in 167 BC. These verses would tell us that the context of Matthew 24 is a prophecy of the destruction of the Temple which we know occurred in 70 AD.

Could you please point me to which verses from Daniel you are using to get your interpretation? That might help me understand how you are getting the rest of your interpretation.

Thanks,

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

Would you consider the original Lutherans "post-Protestant also? Luther retained the Catholic idea of “perseverance to the end”, as do Anglicans.

I would like to see that quote

From Luther’s Writings
The Babylonian Captivity of the Church
A prelude 1520

On the Sacrament of Baptism

3.8 See, how rich therefore is a Christian, the one who is baptised! Even if he wants to, he cannot lose his salvation, however much he sin, unless he will not believe. For no sin can condemn him save unbelief alone. All other sins – so long as the faith in God’s promise made in baptism returns or remains –all other sins, I say, are immediately blotted out through that same faith…

Hope this helps,

God Bless

 

[ltwin]

You are missing my point and actually affirming my position. I totally agree with what you say here. We make amends not just because it is right and just, but also because it helps to bring us to perfection.

Do you not see the contradiction in your statements? You admit we can not reach Christian perfection without admitting to others we were wrong. But when I went on to say that this perfection is part of the purging in Purgatory you said…

OK this is what I think you are saying, correct me if I’m wrong. Unless we reconcile (or attempt to reconcile) with every single person who has ever wronged us, we must “spend time” (for lack of a better word) in purgatory. Even if we are:

1. unaware
2. forget
3. ask God’s forgiveness but for whatever reason are never able to go directly to that person
4. unable to reconcile because the other person has died or we no longer know the person’s location or contact information, etc.

For all of these cases, it is not simply enough to rest in Christ’s promise of forgiveness. We still must do penance?

So which is it we do or don’t have to admit we were wrong. I’m sure you are going to say well once you die you don’t have to admit anymore, but where’s the justice in that?

It is important, and we should make every effort to reconcile with people we have wronged and repent of our sin. At the same time, the remedy for the corruption that remains is not purgatory but physical death. After that we are in the presence of Christ. Call it instantaneous purgatory if you want, but it occurs because we have received Christ by faith, and we have his righteousness.

Continued in next post.

 

[ltwin]

Either our admitting we were wrong is important or it is not. I don’t see how it is just for God to expect us to clean up the broken glass in this life and not have to clean it up in the next. (Keeping in mind the only way we can clean up the broken glass in this life or in purgatory is because of God’s grace)

It is just because Christ is our all sufficient savior. Our Christian perfection (being perfect in love, which is a process in this life) is not about being morally faultless. It is about being holy, but our holiness is not a matter of us being free from all moral error. It is grounded in the sacrifice of Christ, "For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified, " Hebrews 10:4. We are being sanctified or being made holy in this life even as we are already perfect by our union with Christ by faith. Therefore, for those who are truly being sanctified, we don’t have to worry that there will be any unfinished work after death or that God is going to remember our sins and require some sort of satisfaction after death. It is finished, God does not remember our sins, and he will not require anything beyond what Christ has provided on the Cross.

Not sure what this means? How is us admitting our faults after we die considered “keeping score” when I’m sure you would agree it isn’t before we die?

But we’re not just being asked to admit faults, are we? As I understand it, purgatory is about doing penance. We are forgiven, but God still requires something from us before we can be fully pardoned. There is still a remembrance of our sin, and until WE deal with it by being fully cleansed by God, we cannot fully enjoy what we call heaven.

I’ve always struggled with this phrase. What does it mean? What promise are you referring to?

That when we are forgiven we are forgiven completely. That there is no condemnation. No remaining penance or sacrifice necessary to cleanse us from our sin.

I might be off the mark but the people who claim we are clothed by Christ and God judges us based on Christ’s righteousness and ignores our filth sure seem to. It sure seems like they say we are incapable of being perfected and our only chance of getting to heaven is for God to let us in and ignore our filth.

This is justification by faith, which deals with positional righteousness (we’re righteous because we appropriate Christ’s righteousness by faith). However, it’s important to know that there is an entire “order of salvation” or “way of salvation” that not only includes justification but also regeneration (new birth–literally we become “new creations”), adoption (we become the children of God), sanctification (we become progressively holy and perfect in love) and (post-death) glorification (we become like Jesus, partakers of the divine nature).

 

[ltwin]

For those that accept, they’ve been forgiven the eternal cost of their sins. The redemptive work by Christ is compete and the old Jewish law need not be followed.

What do you think it means?

To me, requiring penance for temporal consequences after death before I could enjoy “heaven” fully seems like a necessary sacrifice, which would seem to be at odds with this passage.

If I break your windshield and tell God I’m sorry, then somehow I don’t have to buy you a new windshield???

You should buy a new windshield. If you break it and run away or lie, that is a sin. However, if 5, 10, 15 years later you become a changed person, and God is working in your life, you may or may not be in a position to rectify your wrong. God will forgive you even if you are unable to hunt down that windshield and compensate the owner.

 

[Vonsalza]

To me, requiring penance for temporal consequences after death before I could enjoy “heaven” fully seems like a necessary sacrifice, which would seem to be at odds with this passage.

It’s not a sacrifice any more than paying for your purchase at a store is a sacrifice.

It’s probably “at odds”, in all honesty, because you grew up in a faith-tradition that needs it to be.

Offered as charitably as possible.

You should buy a new windshield. If you break it and run away or lie, that is a sin. However, if 5, 10, 15 years later you become a changed person, and God is working in your life, you may or may not be in a position to rectify your wrong. God will forgive you even if you are unable to hunt down that windshield and compensate the owner.

Absolutely. But the additional damage you’ve done to creation is still there, so you’re assigned a more generic penance prescribed by the priest. “Do something nice” or “say this prayer” or whatever.

Sin has two effects. Eternal and temporal. It’s this distinction that your hamartiology is missing.

 

[guanophore]

I would like to see that quote.

The words, “Ye are fallen from grace,” must not be taken lightly. They are important. To fall from grace means to lose the atonement, the forgiveness of sins, the righteousness, liberty, and life which Jesus has merited for us by His death and resurrection. To lose the grace of God means to gain the wrath and judgment of God, death, the bondage of the devil, and everlasting condemnation." (Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians, 5:4).

 

[guanophore]

Purgatory is not only unnecessary, but denied in scripture.

It seems that you have a distorted understanding of purgatory. Purgatory is the state in which we are all cleansed, as if by fire, separated from our ungodly works.

I Corinthians 3:11-15 “For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

(and no, @steve-b, this “Day” is not Sunday!)

This is a description of purgatory, or the purging, during which the Holy Spirit separates us from all that which is unclean, so that we can enter heaven.

we must “spend time” (for lack of a better word) in purgatory.

Indeed, it is hard for those of us who are contained within the space-time continuum to conceive of a “state” that is not connected to it.

Being unaware does not exempt us from consequences.

Luke 12:48 “But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.”

forget

What does this mean? We “forget” to treat others according to the commandments?!

ask God’s forgiveness but for whatever reason are never able to go directly to that person

This is a strawman. The person we offended might be dead. God does not require us to do the impossible.

unable to reconcile because the other person has died or we no longer know the person’s location or contact information, etc.

We are obligated, in so much as it depends upon us, to be reconciled. There are times when it is not possible. Do you deny that Jesus tells us we must forgive in order to be forgiven?

For all of these cases, it is not simply enough to rest in Christ’s promise of forgiveness. We still must do penance?

The two are not separated from each other. Penance, or reparation, is part of Christ’s forgiveness.

 

[guanophore]

At the same time, the remedy for the corruption that remains is not purgatory but physical death.

I don’t see how this can be supported by Scripture or the Early Fathers of the Church.

Call it instantaneous purgatory if you want

This is an important point. Protestants also believe in purgatory, they just understand that it happens 'in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye".

It is about being holy, but our holiness is not a matter of us being free from all moral error. It is grounded in the sacrifice of Christ,

These are not mutually exclusive. Jesus calls us to be free from sin (moral error). It is HIs sacrifice that enables us to achieve this.

Therefore, for those who are truly being sanctified, we don’t have to worry that there will be any unfinished work after death

I agree! The purgation that cleanses us for heaven is available only to those who are in Christ, and it is because of HIs love that prevents anything unclean from entering heaven.

But we’re not just being asked to admit faults, are we? As I understand it, purgatory is about doing penance. We are forgiven, but God still requires something from us before we can be fully pardoned.

Then you have a misunderstanding of purgatory. The purgation is only available to those whose sins have been fully forgiven by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. What needs to happen is that we must be separated from our attachments/consequences of sin. The Apostles taught that this does not happen just because the soul leaves the body.

That when we are forgiven we are forgiven completely. That there is no condemnation.

Exactly! All that remains is the cleansing of our souls, since nothing unclean can enter heaven.

No remaining… sacrifice necessary to cleanse us from our sin.

Exactly! Jesus is all sufficient.

“way of salvation” that not only includes justification but also regeneration (new birth–literally we become “new creations”), adoption (we become the children of God), sanctification (we become progressively holy and perfect in love) and (post-death) glorification (we become like Jesus, partakers of the divine nature).

This is very Catholic! In the East, it is called “theosis”.

 

[ltwin]

What does this mean? We “forget” to treat others according to the commandments?!

Like something happens years ago, perhaps even before we are converted and is relatively minor, and so because our memories are not infinite, we forget.

This is a strawman. The person we offended might be dead. God does not require us to do the impossible.

No, not a strawman. An honest attempt to understand exactly what Catholics believe about purgatory. This was not a gotcha but an actual question.

 

[guanophore]

Like something happens years ago, perhaps even before we are converted and is relatively minor, and so because our memories are not infinite, we forget.

If the Holy Spirit desires us to make amends, He will bring it to our rememberance. But none of this is “relatively minor”. We are talking about major sins against God and others.

 

[tgGodsway]

How can I be the one reading my theology into the text when the only thing I’m interpreting is the text?

Good morning MT. No, I’m not talking about the entire chapter here. I’m talking about your interpretation of verse 22. It is not justified that Jesus was talking about enduring to the end will be eternally saved. If this is what you believe, then you have read an idea into the passage that is not there. You expect me to justify my reasons for reading it as a literal deliverance, but you yourself have not justified it as having a spiritual deliverance.