Questions about when people get "saved"

[MT1926]

No, I’m not talking about the entire chapter here. I’m talking about your interpretation of verse 22

Didn’t you just post an interpretation of the chapter?

You expect me to justify my reasons for reading it as a literal deliverance, but you yourself have not justified it as having a spiritual deliverance.

Didn’t I just do that when I interpreted the verses surrounding verse 22? Sure you might not accept my justification but that doesn’t mean I never gave the interpretation. Why don’t you try asking me some questions about my interpretation instead of just saying I’m taking it out of context or reading my theology into the text. I know you have no desire to learn anything from anyone here but I honestly have a desire to know why you believe what you believe. That is why I do my best to ask questions.

Instead of answering my questions you accuse me of reading my theology into the text then respond by saying “It is not justified that Jesus was talking about enduring to the end will be eternally saved.”

Why? Based solely on chapter 24.

Think about it? You are saying this because you believe, based on you theology about other verses, that we don’t need to endure, we don’t need to love God, we don’t even need to continue to believe, after being born again. Based on your other theological assumption you say to yourself well enduring can’t mean what it looks like here because I already know we don’t have to endure. Therefor, I need to come up with a different meaning for this text.

That is the very definition of reading your theology into the text. You are accusing me of doing what you are doing.

I’m not sure why the questions I give you are discarded as ridiculous, not worthy of a response or below you? I’m trying my best to charitable understand your interpretation.

Which is the reason I asked

I’m not following you here. How is one “SAVED” from a persecution after they already endured the persecution?

I’m not saying I’m right and you are wrong all I am asking is how is Jesus statement logical if this is what it is interpreted to mean?

I know you are having several conversations at once, as am I, but I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish here? Why would you think anyone here would be willing to believe what you believe when you are unwilling to answer simple questions.

I think the question above should be easy to answer as should my other question…

Could you please point me to which verses from Daniel you are using to get your interpretation? That might help me understand how you are getting the rest of your interpretation.

I already posted the verses from Daniel I was using. I’m not sure why asking you for a Bible reference for the verses you are using is expecting you to do something I am not doing?

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

OK this is what I think you are saying, correct me if I’m wrong. …

For all of these cases, it is not simply enough to rest in Christ’s promise of forgiveness. We still must do penance?

I think we are on a similar page.

The only thing I would like to add is the forgiveness isn’t necessarily for the benefit of the person we wrong. It’s not likely (although possible) we are physically going to say sorry to the person we wronged. Also, the penance is not because there is something lacking in Christ’s sacrifice. Asking for forgiveness is for our benefit.

Think about it this way. If you have a tendency to commit a particular sin, whatever that might be, you know it is a sin and every time you commit it you right away ask God for forgiveness. But you keep doing it. If all you ever do is commit the sin over and over and ask for forgiveness over and over, are you learning anything about your sin or are you only learning how to say sorry?

Penance is a way to understand the gravity of your sin, how it affects you and how it affects others. Penance puts yourself in the others shoes and helps you see the sin through the eyes of God. It’s possible to do penance in this life, come to an understanding of the gravity of the sin and be purged of that tendency towards that sin and the guilt of that sin.

If not completed in this life Jesus will purge us of the tendency and guilt of the sin after we die. The tendency and the guilt of the sins are on our souls, Jesus will purge these for our benefit not His.

At the same time, the remedy for the corruption that remains is not purgatory but physical death

When I think about what remains I think about the guilt. I believe once we are in the presence of Christ we will understand the consequences of the actions we did in this life. Without first being purged of the guilt that will come with this understanding I believe the love of Christ will be unbearable. Imagine a father throwing a party for a son who did a great job cleaning the barn, and the son knows full well he didn’t finish the job he just made it look good.

It just makes sense to me. Have you ever said something in a moment and later that day realized what you said and can’t believe you worded it that way. The guilt eats you up inside for days, until you can see that person again and explain what you meant. Imagine getting to heaven and being overwhelmed by the guilt of every sin you ever committed (that you did not get to make amends for in this life). Jesus loves us to much to let us have to deal with this guilt for all eternity. That’s why He will help us clean the slate (in purgatory) on our way into heaven.

Call it purgatory, call it instantaneous purification, call it what you want. But to think at the moment of our death that we are already perfectly clean just seems to be presumption in my book.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

I"For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified, " Hebrews 10:4.

I agree with this.

We are being sanctified or being made holy in this life

I agree we are being sanctified in this life but not sure how you can say we are already perfect in this life.

I’m not reading verse 14 as saying Jesus offering has already perfected the Christians BEING sanctified. Because, if they are still BEING sanctified how are they perfected? When I read verse 14 I am understanding that Jesus’ single offering is what was perfected for all times. Christ accomplished what the Mosaic ceremonies could not, which is the inward transformation of the worshiper. Which would include the cleansing of the conscience from guilt, which is what I believe is the main point in purgatory…

Hebrews 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ…purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

Hebrews 10:22 … full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience…

Sure agree this clear conscience can happen in this lifetime, but I’m sure you would agree many on their death bed worry about unfinished business.

Therefore, for those who are truly being sanctified, we don’t have to worry that there will be any unfinished work after death or that God is going to remember our sins and require some sort of satisfaction after death.

Totally agree God won’t remember our sins or want satisfaction, but would a righteous person remember their sins (guilt) and want satisfaction, from themselves, for those they wronged?

That when we are forgiven we are forgiven completely. That there is no condemnation. No remaining penance or sacrifice necessary to cleanse us from our sin.

Thanks I agree with the first 2. Yes to think we can’t be forgiven or that God still condemns us after we confess would be to say Christ’s sacrifice was not enough. But not sure how doing penance (cooperating with Christ) would somehow be saying I’m not trusting in Christ. Off the top of my head forgiving others might be a form of penance. Which Jesus commands we must do if we want to receive forgiveness. (Matthew 6)

This is justification by faith, which deals with positional righteousness (we’re righteous because we appropriate Christ’s righteousness by faith)

I thought some held the position that God declares you righteous based on Jesus righteousness regardless of whether or not you were actually made righteous? They believe that we are unable to become righteous so God has to ignore the “dirty rags”, as they tend to say. Which would mean we are still sitting in our filth and God is just ignoring the filth and looking at Jesus instead.

Thanks

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

Good morning MT. No, I’m not talking about the entire chapter here. I’m talking about your interpretation of verse 22. It is not justified that Jesus was talking about enduring to the end will be eternally saved. If this is what you believe, then you have read an idea into the passage that is not there. You expect me to justify my reasons for reading it as a literal deliverance, but you yourself have not justified it as having a spiritual deliverance.

He has a valid point @MT1926. We all read through our interpretive filter. Catholics “read into the text” through the lens of the Apostolic faith, preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit in the Church. We interpret based on the doctrine that was “once for all delivered to the saints” Jude 1: 3 from the Apostles.

tgG interprets through Calvanistic lenses, developed 1500 years after the facts. Naturally there are going to be differences!

Why don’t you try asking me some questions about my interpretation instead of just saying I’m taking it out of context or reading my theology into the text.

I admire your effort @MT1926, but this is not likely to bear fruit. tgG is not able to step outside of his Calvanistic perspective. He is not even able to acknowledge that there is another way to understand the text. At least, I have never seen that happen.

I know you have no desire to learn anything from anyone here but I honestly have a desire to know why you believe what you believe.

tgG has said that his faith has been a life transforming experience for him, and is constantly enriching and spiritually growthful. His paradigm/world view is a productive walk with God as he sees it, while the Catholic view is not. People tend to hold fast to what works for them. It is the same reason I came back to the CC after a couple of decades sojourning among my separated brethren.

“It is not justified that Jesus was talking about enduring to the end will be eternally saved.”

I know, my jaw fell open when I read this too. It is mind boggling that there is not an ability to acknowledge that certain passages can be understood differently. It indicates an entrenched fundamentalism. It reminds me of when I gravitated toward a Baptist community in my youth. It was a time when I really needed fundamentalism to provide structure and meaning in my life.

Great post, and great invitation @MT1926. I don’t think that invitation can be answered, though.

 

[tgGodsway]

That is why I do my best to ask questions.

Well, you may have a point here MT. I will have to work on that.

 

[tgGodsway]

Think about it? You are saying this because you believe, based on you theology about other verses, that we don’t need to endure, we don’t need to love God, we don’t even need to continue to believe, after being born again.

Yes, you are absolutely right here the “WE” of your statement, both in the context and in today’s experience, is one who already has been justified. Why would justified believers who endure persecution, need to be justified again? …

I tried to show you how these passages deal specifically with a special context relating to the end times. But you don’t want to believe it. I really have no more to say about it.

Seeing that I’m not good with asking specific questions: If you will answer my (above) question then that would be a good start.

 

[tgGodsway]

His paradigm/world view is a productive walk with God as he sees it, while the Catholic view is not. People tend to hold fast to what works for them. It is the same reason I came back to the CC after a couple of decades sojourning among my separated brethren.

guanophore, please do not speak for me here. I have never said the CC is not a productive walk. I do my best to only point out wrong theology. One can still have a productive walk within the CC while embracing bad theology. AND… one can have an unproductive walk in the protestant Church with correct theology. One’s productivity is so much more than theology itself.

 

[tgGodsway]

We all read through our interpretive filter. Catholics “read into the text” through the lens of the Apostolic faith, preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit in the Church. We interpret based on the doctrine that was “once for all delivered to the saints” Jude 1: 3 from the Apostles.

guanophore… you are hilarious. this is what you believe. But just because you insert it into every post doesn’t make it true.

 

[MT1926]

Yes, you are absolutely right here the “WE” of your statement, both in the context and in today’s experience, is one who already has been justified.

Thank you, I agree.

Why would justified believers who endure persecution, need to be justified again? …

They don’t. I never said they did. I said the justified believers who endure to the end are saved. I never claimed after they endure that have to be justified again.

I’m talking about the ones that fall away (v10). The ones who turn on one another and hate one another (V10). The justified Christian who renounces their faith and follows the false profit (V11), clinging to the ways of the world, because it is an easier road then the one that is narrow and filled with persecution. The justified that endure are saved (V13) but these fallen away Christians are the ones I am saying are the ones who don’t endure to the end and aren’t saved (V13)

I tried to show you how these passages deal specifically with a special context relating to the end times. But you don’t want to believe it. I really have no more to say about it.

Actually, I do that is why I asked you which verses from Daniel are you using?

You quoted verse 15 as an important verse…

15 “So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place

Jesus is telling us the sign will be the desolating sacrilege Daniel told us about. Why is me asking where you are finding this sign in Daniel me not wanting to believe what you are saying.

You know I am trying my best to be a good and loving Christian here, but I gotta say…come on be honest with me here. Either you used Daniel to make your interpretation or you didn’t. The fact that you won’t site the verses makes it seems like you didn’t, why is that?

God Bless

 

[tgGodsway]

Very interesting. Hmm… I have a question: when Luther said

he cannot lose his salvation, however much he sin, unless he will not believe. For no sin can condemn him save unbelief alone. "
Since, for Luther, once Justified, always Justified, meant one cannot lose the gift of eternal life. Did he mean that if one is in Unbelief he cannot be justified?

All other sins – so long as the faith in God’s promise made in baptism returns or remains –all other sins, I say, are immediately blotted out through that same faith…

I am not aware of what all other sins means here. The sin of unbelief is enough to deny justification. But God remains Faithful

 

[steve-b]

tgGodsway:

Purgatory is not only unnecessary, but denied in scripture.

It seems that you have a distorted understanding of purgatory. Purgatory is the state in which we are all cleansed, as if by fire, separated from our ungodly works.

I Corinthians 3:11-15 “For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

(and no, @steve-b, this “Day” is not Sunday!)

This is a description of purgatory, or the purging, during which the Holy Spirit separates us from all that which is unclean, so that we can enter heaven.

I don’t say nor have I ever said, THAT reference to “Day” in THAT passage is Sunday. Far different context than Heb 10:25. You are the one who has a problem with context.

 

[MT1926]

Since, for Luther, once Justified, always Justified, meant one cannot lose the gift of eternal life. Did he mean that if one is in Unbelief he cannot be justified?

No he was speaking of Christians here, not the unjustified.

The context of the entire chapter I pulled from is his writings on being born again in water baptism.

The beginning of the quote states…See, how rich therefore is a Christian, the one who is baptised!

There is no way to spin this he tells us straight out that he is referring to believing Christians.

The problem is you never studied Luther or read his writings for yourself. So when your church told you that Luther believed “once Justified, always Justified, meant one cannot lose the gift of eternal life”, you trusted the people telling you this and never asked for any of his writings to prove that is what he believed.

Once again you are using what you were taught and reading it into Luther’s writings.

You say to yourself well Luther believed one can not lose their salvation therefore even though He plainly says that a Christian can lose their salvation if they quit believing, he can’t mean that therefor he must really be talking about unbelievers here and not Christians.

Think through what you are trying to say, Luther outright says "he cannot lose his salvation unless…

And you ask is he talking about unbelievers.

Well how does an unbeliever lose their salvation if they never had in the first place.

Come on tgG stop listening to what you are being told and start thinking and reading for yourself.

God bless

 

[ltwin]

I thought some held the position that God declares you righteous based on Jesus righteousness regardless of whether or not you were actually made righteous?

This is the teaching on justification, but it is not held in isolation by any of the major evangelical denominations. Even the Southern Baptist Convention (the Queen of OSAS) includes more than just justification in the order of salvation, as defined by their confessional statement the Baptist Faith and Message:

IV. Salvation
Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.

A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God’s grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.

B. Justification is God’s gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.

C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God’s purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person’s life.

D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.

What you have probably heard is some Protestants offering a truncated message in which they focus on justification by faith but leave out all the other aspects of salvation; however, none of the evangelical denominations actually believe that God saves us while leaving us unchanged.

Continued in next post.

 

[ltwin]

They believe that we are unable to become righteous so God has to ignore the “dirty rags”, as they tend to say. Which would mean we are still sitting in our filth and God is just ignoring the filth and looking at Jesus instead.

What they are talking about is Isaiah 64:

Behold, you were angry, and we sinned;
in our sins we have been a long time, and shall we be saved?
6 We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
7 There is no one who calls upon your name,
who rouses himself to take hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us,
and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities.

What this simply means is that any attempt that an unconverted person makes to make him or herself righteous is corrupted and tainted by sin. Think about it, even when we do good we can also have selfish or ulterior motives.

We need a change of heart, and this takes place through regeneration (which is simultaneous with justification) which gives us a new nature. Before, we were spiritually dead and unable to please God. Afterwards, we are spiritually alive and are able to perform good works out of gratitude and love for God.

In justification, God declares us righteous even though objectively we’re not very righteous at all. It deals with our standing before God, and is why even though we are not absolutely perfect in this life those who have placed their faith in Christ need not fear condemnation because their standing before God is not dependent on their own righteousness. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to them. However, in regeneration we come alive, and the Holy Spirit begins his sanctifying work in us progressively conforming us to Christ’s image.

The goal is to become like Jesus. Justification by faith is only the beginning, and anyone who is truly justified is also regenerated and is being sanctified. Therefore, it is a huge error to say that holiness of life is unimportant or that all one needs to do is “believe.” Someone who says that you don’t need holiness of life only “faith” does not know what true faith is.

 

[lanman87]

Thank you for this. As someone who was raised in a rural Southern Baptist church I can honestly say the idea of come to the alter and say and prayer and then live however you want because your “saved” is very far from what I was taught. One of the first things that perplexed me when I came to this board was the general belief (by many) that evangelicals, like the Southern Baptist, don’t believe in fleeing from sin and living a holy life that bring glory and honor to Christ.

 

[tgGodsway]

The justified that endure are saved

Saved from what? … what is it that they need to be saved from in the context!!? Oh… yeah. Mt. 10 gives a lot of clues that Mt. 24 expounds on. Let me cover just a few in this chapter.

v17 says, " beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. - Jewish persecution.
v18 “You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake,…” Secular persecution

v22 "you will be hated by ALL… FOR my name’s sake… But he who endures, (the above mentioned persecution) to the end (the end of that persecution) will be saved=delivered from it.

when will this persecution end?.. after they go from town to town in all the cities of Israel, (v23) BEFORE THE SON OF MAN COMES.

When did all of this happen in the life of Jesus’ original disciples? It didn’t, and neither have we seen all of Israel evangelized before the coming of the Son of Man.

This should tell any serious student of scripture that the content of Mt. 24 which shares this one popular verse we’ve been debating, is a more developed explanation.

… But that’s just me…

 

[MT1926]

What you have probably heard is some Protestants offering a truncated message in which they focus on justification by faith but leave out all the other aspects of salvation; however, none of the evangelical denominations actually believe that God saves us while leaving us unchanged.

Possibly, I’ll have to pay better attention next time.

What this simply means is that any attempt that an unconverted person makes to make him or herself righteous is corrupted and tainted by sin. Think about it, even when we do good we can also have selfish or ulterior motives.

Totally agree.

We need a change of heart, and this takes place through regeneration (which is simultaneous with justification) which gives us a new nature. Before, we were spiritually dead and unable to please God. Afterwards, we are spiritually alive and are able to perform good works out of gratitude and love for God.

Yep, I agree with this as well. However, the ones that use the dirty rags verse usually use it out of context to mean any work, even after we are regenerated are still worthless dirty rags.

In justification, God declares us righteous even though objectively we’re not very righteous at all. It deals with our standing before God, and is why even though we are not absolutely perfect in this life those who have placed their faith in Christ need not fear condemnation because their standing before God is not dependent on their own righteousness. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to them.

This is where you lost me. If we are only declared righteous and not MADE righteous, then I am having a hard time seeing why we aren’t still sitting in our filth, for all eternity.

I totally agree that we can not make it on our own and not saying that we can, however a change has to be made in us or we are still going to be filthy, regardless of any declaration.

However, in regeneration we come alive, and the Holy Spirit begins his sanctifying work in us progressively conforming us to Christ’s image.

This I’m good with with. I’m just not seeing why this progressive conformity to Christ’s image is not able to be completed? This way we aren’t just declared righteous, but we are truly MADE righteous.

The goal is to become like Jesus. Justification by faith is only the beginning, and anyone who is truly justified is also regenerated and is being sanctified. Therefore, it is a huge error to say that holiness of life is unimportant or that all one needs to do is “believe.” Someone who says that you don’t need holiness of life only “faith” does not know what true faith is.

AMEN BROTHER.

God Bless

 

[tgGodsway]

Actually I wasn’t finished with my response and it got sent anyway. I was on my phone and somehow it got sent, and then my phone rang and I took a call. After all said and done I couldn’t re-locate it on the site.

Could you please give me the quote again. Because it almost sounds like puritan theology. But I want to see it with my own eyes.

 

[tgGodsway]

Never mind MT I found my place.

On the Sacrament of Baptism

3.8 See, how rich therefore is a Christian, the one who is baptized! Even if he wants to, he cannot lose his salvation, however much he sin, unless he will not believe. For no sin can condemn him save unbelief alone. All other sins – so long as the faith in God’s promise made in baptism returns or remains –all other sins, I say, are immediately blotted out through that same faith…

It sound like Luther was struggling here. His view, at least on
this one quote, sound a lot like an Arminian view. Perhaps in Luther’s quest for freedom over sin’s power, he failed to understand the faithfulness of God even to those who have lost there faith.

“If we endure, we will also reign with him;
If we deny him, he also will deny us;
If we are FAITHLESS=G= UNBELIEVING, He (Christ) REMAINS FAITHFUL.” 2nd. Tim. 2:11-13.

Christ remains faithful to the faithless (but justified sinner,.) This is a radical but yet biblical concept only few accept. It shows all the more, how our God is merciful and generous to us sinners. He receives all of the glory in the salvation work.

 

[ltwin]

This is where you lost me. If we are only declared righteous and not MADE righteous, then I am having a hard time seeing why we aren’t still sitting in our filth, for all eternity.

Justification is instantaneous. The moment we believe, we are justified. However, we don’t become all-that-and-a-bag-of-chips instantaneously. We have to become holy and sanctified as we battle sin and gain the victory through the power of Christ whose Spirit now lives within us and is giving life to our mortal bodies. This is something that comes with spiritual maturity. In the faith, there are those who are like little children, those like young men and those like fathers. As we grow and mature in our Christian walk, we become ever more holy as we imitate Christ more and more.

I totally agree that we can not make it on our own and not saying that we can, however a change has to be made in us or we are still going to be filthy, regardless of any declaration.

The change happens in sanctification.

This I’m good with with. I’m just not seeing why this progressive conformity to Christ’s image is not able to be completed? This way we aren’t just declared righteous, but we are truly MADE righteous.

It can be completed to some degree in this life.