Questions about when people get "saved"

[tgGodsway]

He who endures to the END. The end of what? Jesus had something very specific in mind here. Watch therefore for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. MT.24:42

 

[hope]

The article has the scripture.

 

[hope]

What race?.. there is no race to receive eternal life.

Paul was talking about his endurance to the the end to receive eternal life You asked what race. Paul was talking about his life and his race to eternal life.

 

[tgGodsway]

What is it in the passage that makes you think that?

 

[guanophore]

I have never said the CC is not a productive walk.

You certainly seemed to indicate that it was for you, was my point. Your spiritual journey led you away from the Church, and you are now in a community that is anti-Catholic, and find it spiritually productive for yourself, do you not?

guanophore… you are hilarious. this is what you believe. But just because you insert it into every post doesn’t make it true.

It increases the likelihood that more people will read it! Are you saying that you don’t believe that you read scripture through an interpretive lens? or that Catholics don’t?

(by many) that evangelicals, like the Southern Baptist, don’t believe in fleeing from sin and living a holy life that bring glory and honor to Christ.

I think the majority of Catholics have not only failed to read their own catechism, but have never read any documents of faith belonging to denominations. They have never heard of the “golden chain of salvation” and think that the minority of American evangelicals that do not espouse any faith statement represent the majority instead. There are a few very loud fundamentalists that misrepresent OSAS that can be very misleading.

Actually I wasn’t finished with my response and it got sent anyway. I was on my phone and somehow it got sent, and then my phone rang and I took a call. After all said and done I couldn’t re-locate it on the site.

I know it can be crazymaking! If you go to your profile and look under “activity” it will show you all your own posts and sometimes you can find it that way.

Christ remains faithful to the faithless (but justified sinner,.) This is a radical but yet biblical concept only few accept. It shows all the more, how our God is merciful and generous to us sinners. He receives all of the glory in the salvation work.

Certainly God is always ready to forgive us, to receive us back into right relationship with Himself. But the reason that few accept your interpretation is because the Apostles did not. God loves us fully, freely, and finally, and because of that, will allow us to walk through the gates of hell if we so choose.

Are you seeing my point at all?

I think it is a great point, and I am also eagerly awaiting a response.

I’m guessing I just have a hang up on the definition of the word declared. If God declares us righteous because we are actually made righteous, (by the blood of Christ), I’m good.

However, if God declares us righteous by ignoring our faults and looking at Jesus instead than that is like your parents going out and buying you a first place trophy even though you never even finished the race. That is unjust in my book.

Yes, this is a major sticking point of much Reformation theology.

 

[MT1926]

As I’ve already mentioned, MT. 10 is not fully developed to answer it’s own statement. When Jesus said, "he who endures to the end shall be saved, (from MT. 10) He doesn’t answer your specific question in this chapter.

I’m not sure why you are thinking I’m talking about Chapter 10 here? The post you link to even has the verses of chapter 24 sited right in the post?

See why I am having troubles following your theology it is all of the place.

Obviously the content of MT. 24 goes into great detail of end time events correlating with the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation.

That’s great, for like the 4th time now, how about siting the verses. “It’s in there” might work with the way you do theology but it doesn’t for me.

He who endures the persecution of the anti-Christ shall be saved=from him.

I thought it was delivered from the persecution?

Either way the statement still doesn’t make sense. Think it through, no matter what time frame you are speaking of, the way you interpret this verse means the Martyrs will not be saved from the anti-Christ? So wouldn’t this mean the martyrs, who died for the gospel, are with the anti-Christ for all eternity?

Most of the Church, will have fallen away and only the bond servants of Christ remain to experience this “endurance.”

So some of the born again believers will not be saved from the anti-Christ? Wouldn’t that mean they will spend eternity with the anti-Christ and not with Jesus?

 

[MT1926]

yeah, that’s nonsensical.

Seriously? Jesus not being able to deny Himself has no meaning to you?

I just love how you come across words in the Bible and say well that has no meaning to me, I guess I’ll just skip it. or see it’s not repeated three times therefor it must not be important.

Why would the Holy Spirit inspire someone to write something that is not important?

It amazes me that you can not see that you read the entire Bible through the lens of believing you can not lose your salivation. Yet constantly accuse us of reading our theology into the text.

The fact that Paul mentions three times "IF WE… in a contrast between US and GOD, only shows this powerful creed to be all the more compelling.

You lost me here. So now the first 2 lines have no meaning either? They are just there to point us to the thrid line? and in no way does the fact that it specifically says if we deny him he will also deny us, contradict interpreting the very next sentence to mean even if we deny him he will still be faithful and not deny us?

Sorry I have no idea why I would believe anyone who told me this line doesn’t really mean deny it’s a way of the writer showing us how much more powerful the next line is.

 

[MT1926]

What race?.. there is no race to receive eternal life.

Seriously? You honestly couldn’t see that when I said “it is like” I was just presenting an example and not doing theological interpretation?

Dude you need to slow down, you are in anti-Catholic mode and feel the need to disagree with everyone about everything whether it applies to the your conversation or not.

Breath tgG Breath

 

[MT1926]

He who endures to the END. The end of what? Jesus had something very specific in mind here. Watch therefore for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. MT.24:42

Well let me start by saying, it doesn’t matter. Why are you asking this question? I already said it doesn’t matter if Jesus was speaking of the end of the Apostles lives, the destruction of the Temple, or the second coming. It doesn’t change the meaning of the words “will be saved”.

Until you can come up with a valid explanation of how someone can be saved from something that they already endured until it was over, you interpretation makes no sense. If they endured it to the end then whatever they were enduring was already over, they are no longer in need of being “saved” because there is nothing left to save them from.

Why are you trying to bring the conversation back to Chapter 10 in you last post and now you are trying to focus the conversation on the word END?

You are purposefully avoiding my questions because you know you have no good answer.

It doesn’t matter tgG I’m not here to prove you wrong, I’m here for the Catholic who is not sound in their faith, as you were once, who might stumble across your words and blindly follow them. I’m here to help these weaker Catholics learn that it’s all about the WHY? Ask questions of these so called teachers and you will know them by their fruits.

I’m sure your avoidance of my questions speaks loud and clear to them.

When you are ready to answer my questions we can continue this conversation on Matthew 24. But to blindly accept the interpretation of someone claiming to have all the answers, without getting answers to the most basic of questions is spiritual suicide.

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

It proves that this person either never allowed Christ to become LORD over his life, (through deliberate acts of sanctification) he concealed his true identity by sinful living, or, he never had the opportunity to learn of Christ and his ways in the first place.

So what happened to the golden chain? If the person has full access to support for sanctification and chooses not to make Jesus Lord of their lives?

Most of the Church, will have fallen away and only the bond servants of Christ remain to experience this “endurance.”

I’m thinking by “most of the Church” you mean those who are not true Christians in the first place?

What is the difference between a Christian and a bond servant?

If there is no difference, why didn’t the bond servants get raptured?

 

[guanophore]

yeah, that’s nonsensical. It serves Him no good purpose to be faithful to himself, though I’m sure He is. God is not the one found in jeopardy if we are faithlessness.

The next phrase give us the reason tgG:

"if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself."  2 Tim 2:13

Or perhaps you are saying that the inspired author is just being nonsensical? Perhaps in our limited human minds, we can see no reason why God would be faithful to HImself?

Nowhere in God’s word do we find the concept of God being faithful to Himself. To imply it here is without warrant.

Well, here it is. It is not the only place, either. It is part of the doctrine of the Impassibility of God. It is not just “implied” it is clearly stated. If you cannot see it, then it must be blotted out by the Calvanistic glasses!

But we do find the concept that WE are objects of His faithfulness. This idea is repeated over and over again throughout scripture.

No one is disputing that we are the objects of His faithfulness. He does not stop loving us, just because we turn our backs on Him.

Paul said we are ONE SPIRIT with the Lord. Because the Spirit of God has been deposited in us and that seal will not be broken, therefore God will not deny Himself by becoming unfaithful to that seal. This is what makes eternal life a gift without cost to us.

Agreed, the seal of the Holy Spirit is immutable and eternal. Hell will have a good share of sealed souls, as they chose to turn away from their inheritance that is kept imperishable for them in heaven.

Now you are admitting that the text really does admit that God is being faithful to Himself? God is always willing to forgive us, to receive us, to cleanse us and bring our souls into conformity with heaven, to which nothing unclean can be admitted.

What makes eternal life a free gift is that Jesus paid the price for our sins on the cross, and we are thus saved by His grace through faith. The seal does not obligate Him to save us if we later abandon our relationship with Him.

 

[guanophore]

If this is the case then the Pharisees, who all had outward works for everyone to see, would have accepted their Messiah. They had this kind of fruit, outwardly, but inwardly, they were dead to Christ.

Horse hockey, tgG. Name me one action of the Pharisees that demonstrated the fruit of the Spirit!? They did not “work out” any spiritual life that was at work in them. Such works Jesus and the Apostles condemned thoroughly. They are NOT the “fruit” of any good tree, but of a bad tree.

1THEN Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, 2Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. 3All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not. 4For they bind heavy and insupportable burdens, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but with a finger of their own they will not move them. 5And all their works they do for to be seen of men. For they make their phylacteries broad, and enlarge their fringes. 6And they love the first places at feasts, and the first chairs in the synagogues, 7And salutations in the market place, and to be called by men, Rabbi. Matt.23

I think you will need a better example of “true identity”.

Accept that Paul didn’t see it as a purging, he saw it as a construction project. Paul laid the foundation, and it is up to everyone else as to how they will build upon that foundation.

We read it differently don’t we?

"If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. " I Cor. 3:15

This is how Paul describes the state of the believer who still has attachments to sin, yet dies in a state of grace. Such a soul is purified (purged).

The final DAY will reveal everything and everyone who built.

I agree with your description of everything being revealed, but Paul is clear that the fire here burns the work while the person is saved, so trying to limit this to only a “revelation” without a purification is falling short.

It’s a metaphor.

This is an example of the false dichotomy. Just becuase something is not physical does not make it a metaphor. The purification is a literal spiritual truth, not a “metaphor”.

If you want to assert that it is a metaphor, then I am curious what it is referencing? You are admitting that there is an actual judgment where works are revealed by fire, so to what is the metaphor pointing?

Where in the world did you get purgatory out of all of this?

This is what has been passed down to us from the apostles.

 

[guanophore]

You must qualify that. I’m not trying to resist answering, but I have a point here. How much sin becomes quote, “a life of sin?” and on what biblical bases?

It is not a quantity, but a quality of life. It is a life turned away from the heart of God. This is why Catholics call it a state of grace. When we are in right relationship with God, we are not separated from Him by sin. When we fall from grace, we are separated by sin.

I don’t know why you say this is what Paul didn’t see as I believe that is exactly what he saw.

Because it does not fit into the Calvanistic golden chain of salvation!

What is the purpose of this race and why?

To complete the works of righteousness that God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

What is it in the passage that makes you think that?

2 Timothy 4:7
For I am already on the point of being sacrificed; the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing."

(no, @steve-b, it is not Sunday!) Paul is talking about having endured to the end of his earthly life.

See why I am having troubles following your theology it is all of the place.

I think you might be able to get a pair of Calvanist Golden Chain Glasses from Amazon, then you might be able to “see” it better?

 

[MT1926]

I think you might be able to get a pair of Calvanist Golden Chain Glasses from Amazon, then you might be able to “see” it better?

I gotta buy me some Amazon stock, I swear they sell everything.

 

[tgGodsway]

Horse hockey, tgG. Name me one action of the Pharisees that demonstrated the fruit of the Spirit!? They did not “work out” any spiritual life that was at work in them. Such works Jesus and the Apostles condemned thoroughly. They are NOT the “fruit” of any good tree, but of a bad tree.

Yes I know they did not follow Christ or the Spirit of Christ, but that wasn’t my point guanophore. They wore their spiritual life on the outside without wearing it on the inside. Jesus warned us to beware of the false prophet who come in sheep’s clothing. You shall know them by their fruit. Obviously, the fruit one looks for is not outward obedience, or outward show.
Many people go to Church every Sunday,
Many people even read their bible
Many people sing spiritual songs on Sunday, in the public

Many of them may even do other things that are in of themselves good things,
But that is not enough to show how close they are with God.

The fruit we should look for begins with what false prophets do best. They prophesy… against Christ.

 

[tgGodsway]

It is not a quantity, but a quality of life. It is a life turned away from the heart of God. This is why Catholics call it a state of grace. When we are in right relationship with God, we are not separated from Him by sin. When we fall from grace, we are separated by sin.

I agree with what you say here to some degree. All sin lead to separation from God’s presence. Little white lies, or big bloated lies, all of it leads to a separation from our savior. Agreed. Fallen from grace is Paul’s verbiage here. The Galatians fell from grace to a strict code of LAW in order to become justified. Paul was trying to correct false teaching in Galatians 3.

 

[tgGodsway]

You certainly seemed to indicate that it was for you, was my point. Your spiritual journey led you away from the Church, and you are now in a community that is anti-Catholic, and find it spiritually productive for yourself, do you not?

To be PRO reformed for you is to be anti-Catholic. Why would I want to fight against my own brothers and sisters in the CC? … I do not. But what I do want to do is to help people realize that whether we are Catholic or other, within the Christian church, we are all of one body and NO ONE is any better than anyone else. We are all saved by the same Grace.

So if I practice humility by bowing to the pope and kissing his ring, I am looking for the same from him. If it is only one sided then there is a superiority issue here. I hope that is not the case.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

This is a description of purgatory, or the purging

Accept that Paul didn’t see it as a purging, he saw it as a construction project. Paul laid the foundation, and it is up to everyone else as to how they will build upon that foundation.
The final DAY will reveal everything and everyone who built. He then uses 6 kind of elements, figuratively, to describe what will be found on that day. Some will have built on the foundation and it will be equivalent to GOLD… others SILVER… yet others who built selfishly, will be equivalent to STRAW, or HEY. The fire of testing will show the quality of work. Of course Paul isn’t talking about hell fire or any other kind of fire here. Why not? Because he doesn’t say so. It’s a metaphor.

Where in the world did you get purgatory out of all of this?

Very simple

1 Cor 3:
11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire .

What is the pillar and foundation of truth that Jesus builds? The Church [1 Tim 3:15]. The Catholic Church Jesus builds on Peter and those in union. with him. There is only one Church that qualifies. That’s the Church as in the foundation, one is to build on and within.

Judgement Day comes for everyone, and each person’s works are judged by fire.

Fire is a long understood method of purification as well as destruction.
. Purification fire as one who will be saved but only escaping through fire = purgatory
. Destructive fire as in one who is NOT saved, and therefore, they remain in the fire = hell

This particular process being described above, are Only those souls that will be saved, and only as escaping through the fire that purifies.

 

[ltwin]

Itwin, every time you or I sin, are we doing so in spiritual blindness to who we really are?

If converted, we are no longer spiritually blind for we have the knowledge of the truth. As we sing in “Amazing Grace”, “I was blind but now I see.”

Now, Christians do sin. As James puts it, “For we all stumble in many things” (James 3:2). There is no such thing as sinless perfection. Even those who know the Lord are liable to sins of weakness (Matthew 26:41) and ignorance (we sometimes act without full knowledge, and sometimes our lack of knowledge is due to our own failure to educate ourselves).

However, there is a more serious kind of sin we can fall into. These could be described as “voluntary sins” (since we volunteer to perform them) or willful sins (since it takes a conscious act of the will to perform them), but really, there is no other word for it than rebellion. We know what the Lord requires of us (to love God and love other people, Matthew 22) but we make a conscious choice to do the opposite. There is no appeal to “spiritual blindness” or human weakness or lack of knowledge. There is only the desire to be your own lord and master; to do it your way and not God’s way. This way leads to spiritual death.

We were not created in Christ Jesus to sin, yet we do sin. … When we sin, we conceal our true identity and act out the identity of satan.

Yes, Christians sin. The important point, though, is that Christians do not commit the same willful sin over and over and over and over and over and over again. The truly converted Christian will repent of his or her sin by the grace of God. They battle against sin, because they hate sin as much as God hates sin. Christians are told to “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you,” (James 4:7).

We can do this. We can fight sin and win, because Christ has already given us the victory.

 

[tgGodsway]

Either way the statement still doesn’t make sense. Think it through, no matter what time frame you are speaking of, the way you interpret this verse means the Martyrs will not be saved from the anti-Christ? So wouldn’t this mean the martyrs, who died for the gospel, are with the anti-Christ for all eternity?

"

the Martyrs will not be saved from the anti-Christ? So wouldn’t this mean the martyrs, who died for the gospel, are with the anti-Christ for all eternity?

O my goodness, WHY?.. the tribulation period will be when the world goes mad. They will say ‘its the Christians fault’. Let’s kill them! And many will die. Other who endure shall be saved from it. Why is this so hard for you MT, unless you are just jerking my chain.