Even Phillip Schaff, a Presbyterian/Reformed theologian admits that the early Church received this sacrament from the Apostles.So back to water
A pertinent question indeed.Why was Jesus, who obviously didn’t need John’s Baptism of repentance, Baptized?
You are correct that Jesus did not need John’s baptism because He was without sin and thus had no need of repentance. What I learned was that Jesus gets baptized to show His unity with humanity. He stands in the place of the guilty. Here is an article from the Catholic Answers website that explains it in more detail.MT1926:
Why was Jesus, who obviously didn’t need John’s Baptism of repentance, Baptized?
A pertinent question indeed
And by entering the waters of baptism, joined the Holy Spirit to those waters, so that the “greater” baptism described by John could replace his.He was without sin and thus had no need of repentance.
Then why do some say being born of water is water baptism (of John or even the apostles during our Lord’s ministry here) and is conjoined by "and’’ to being born of the spirit ? It seems it can not be the baptism that we have today in the text we discuss. As you say , it is not regenerative. The best I heard is that it is preparatory for a future rebirth, that rebirth can not happen if one does not acknowledge that he is a sinner , and need of water washing (for His blood had not been shed yet)Yes there was a difference. John’s Baptism was a Baptism of repentance. It was not a a regenerative Baptism for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Ezekiel:"I will give them a new (one) heart.11:19…born again is equivalent to being able to see and enter the kingd somomething not amiss to any spiritual OT jewdo not believe Jesus is saying Nicodemus you should have found and understood what I am saying about being “born anew” from the OT.
The earthly things is the twofold witness Jesus speaks of in verse 11. The heavenly things is this new teaching about being Born anew, in Baptism, in John 3.
but the witness was of john’s baptism ,which we said was not regenerative ??? How could Nicodemus be born again in water baptism, for Christ had not died or ascended yet ???This is what Jesus is talking about when He says you do not understand. He is saying you do not understand (believe) who I REALLY AM. Not you do not understand this teaching. John 3 is about not being able to fully believe in Jesus until one is born again in Baptism.
I’m not following your thought process here? You do realize Jesus is the one doing the talking in John 3 correct? We are Talking about Jesus Baptism not John’s Baptism here.Then why do some say being born of water is water baptism (of John or even the apostles during our Lord’s ministry here) and is conjoined by "and’’ to being born of the spirit ? It seems it can not be the baptism that we have today in the text we discuss. As you say , it is not regenerative. The best I heard is that it is preparatory for a future rebirth, that rebirth can not happen if one does not acknowledge that he is a sinner , and need of water washing (for His blood had not been shed yet)
Thanks, that’s a great verse. Maybe you could type an explanation of where you are going with this and how does this one verse negate the two paragraphs I wrote to you explaining what Jesus was saying?Ezekiel:"I will give them a new (one) heart.11:19…born again is equivalent to being able to see and enter the kingd somomething not amiss to any spiritual OT jew
Once again not sure of your thought process here. As I said Jesus was trying to teach Nicodemus that his belief was not enough he needed to be born again. If Jesus is telling Nicodemus that his belief isn’t enough to be born again then how can we say all it takes is belief to be born again? Jesus just told Nicodemus nope?but the witness was of john’s baptism ,which we said was not regenerative ??? How could Nicodemus be born again in water baptism, for Christ had not died or ascended yet ???
Nicodemus wan’t born again that’s the whole point of John 3. It seems like you are just throwing objections against the wall in the hopes that something will stick.How could Nicodemus be born again in water baptism, for Christ had not died or ascended yet ???
Jesus joined the Holy Spirit to the baptismal waters when He was baptized. He taught His Apostles that those who were baptized in the Trinitarian formula were washed, cleansed, regenerated, adopted, sealed, etc. That is why the Apostles taught these things to their disciples, and they were preserved infallibly in the Sacred Tradition.Then why do some say being born of water is water baptism
The Holy Spirit is not bound by the Sacrament. We don’t know at which point Nicodemus was baptized, but we know that the Aposltes were baptizing during the ministry of Jesus. We don’t know if the indwelling did not come to them until Pentecost.How could Nicodemus be born again in water baptism, for Christ had not died or ascended yet ???
It seems that the mystery has to do with the moment in time John’s baptism was transformed into Jesus’ baptism.how does this one verse negate the two paragraphs I wrote to you explaining what Jesus was saying?
Nicodemus was a teacher in Israel, yet was clinging to the letter of the Law rather than the Spirit. He needed to submit to a spiritual transformation (present in baptism). Perhas Nick thought he was too learned to be baptized, or he was afraid? Not all of Christ’s instructions apply to everyone. For example, the rich young ruler who He told to sell all that he had. Some people need to abandon what they are clinging to in order to be saved.Jesus was trying to teach Nicodemus that his belief was not enough he needed to be born again. If Jesus is telling Nicodemus that his belief isn’t enough to be born again then how can we say all it takes is belief to be born again?
What do you think Nicodemus lacked in order to experience what is in Ezekiel 19?Nicodemus wan’t born again that’s the whole point of John 3.
In a word Baptism.What do you think Nicodemus lacked in order to experience what is in Ezekiel 19?
Here we have many who “simple” believed in his name. However, verse 24 goes on to tell us that Jesus did not trust himself to them.23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs which he did; 24 but Jesus did not trust himself to them,
Notice carefully here that St. John uses the word “man” three times here. This is important because Chapter three begins…25 because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.
St. John here is highlighting the point that Nicodemus is one of these men these so called “simple believers”. Here we are getting exhibit A (Nicodemus) of these men who think they are believing in Jesus and that their “simple belief” is enough. He even makes the statement…3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode′mus, a ruler of the Jews.
This is an amazing statement for a Rabbi to say directly to Jesus.“Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”
This is when Jesus was Baptized. St. John here is showing us how the spirit and the water are connected. When Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit descended upon Him like a dove. Did Jesus need the Holy Spirit to descend on Him? or Was Jesus showing us what we must do also, to receive the Holy Spirit?31 I myself did not know him; but for this I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness, “I saw the Spirit descend as a dove from heaven, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him; but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’
Why would Jesus go out into the land and start Baptizing if it wasn’t important? Wouldn’t it have made more sense to go out and tell everyone to make sure you truly believe?22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.
Now we have here believers, but this verse doesn’t tell us that Jesus saved them it tells us that He gave them power.12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God;
Right here he is telling us the Holy Spirit is the power and we receive it by being Baptized. It’s that simple.5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Not sure what you mean by “belief”. Nicodemus did not believe . He did not have any saving faith. His faith didn’t need something else. it was ineffectual on its own.Once again not sure of your thought process here. As I said Jesus was trying to teach Nicodemus that his belief was not enough he needed to be born again. If Jesus is telling Nicodemus that his belief isn’t enough to be born again then how can we say all it takes is belief to be born again? Jesus just told Nicodemus nope?
Hi g,What do you think Nicodemus lacked in order to experience what is in Ezekiel 19?
Ok I agree with this was this in addition to the chiding or was the chiding the calling out?his religiosity and ''rightness" was useless and Christ immediately called him out on his problem.
Ok and how does this occur?Only by the Father quickening ones spirit, dead in trespasses and sin, can one see the Messiah for whom He is.
John’s Baptism doesn’t however if Jesus Baptism doesn’t then how is one regenerated?I do not believe water baptism regenerates, though it can be associated with new life.
Why would Jesus put the two together, in the middle of a teaching, if it had no significance?Jesus for sure puts the two together in this discourse.
Ok, I believe he was chided because of forgetting the need for spiritual birth, or that enlightenment comes from above (as Peter is noted for in his great confession on whom the Lord is…that flesh and blood are futile but the Father speaks to a quickened spirit in a man). Faith must come from above, not from religious adherence, or carnal perception (acknowledging the miracles). One must be born of the spirit. When one is born again, they perceive the winds of God (John’s and the apostles message and baptisms). Nicodemus should have known that to rightly see his current events surrounding John and the Lord’s ministry, you have to be born again.Ok I agree with this was this in addition to the chiding or was the chiding the calling out?
mcq72:
Faith cometh by hearing, and that by the Word of God (or as spoken from the mouth of john and the Lord himself). One hears that he is a sinner, needs cleansing, even rebirth, and cries out to the Lord. The Lord regenerates the spirit and places faith in this new inner man.Ok and how does this occur?
I have yet to meet someone who says they didn’t believe before baptism but upon rising from the waters then believed.John’s Baptism doesn’t however if Jesus Baptism doesn’t then how is one regenerated?
mcq72:
It does have significance. Those that feel baptism is regenerative see it differently than those who do not.Why would Jesus put the two together, in the middle of a teaching, if it had no significance?
Ok thanks. Could you point me to where all of this is in the OT. If Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he should have already know how you are born again, the he should have known all of this from the OT teachings.Faith cometh by hearing, and that by the Word of God (or as spoken from the mouth of john and the Lord himself). One hears that he is a sinner, needs cleansing, even rebirth, and cries out to the Lord. The Lord regenerates the spirit and places faith in this new inner man.
Totally agree. Catholics don’t teach that either. We don’t teach our belief comes from the Baptism. Our belief comes from God’s free gift of grace. However, we do believe the Holy Spirit descends on us in Baptism, making us born again, just the Way Jesus showed us, when the Holy Spirit descended on Him, when he came up out of the water two Chapters earlier.I have yet to meet someone who says they didn’t believe before baptism but upon rising from the waters then believed.
Sorry I don’t follow you here? Are you saying Jesus instituted Baptism as a challenge to see if we are obedient?In any case , it would have been monumental for Nicodemus to surrender himself to such baptism, so much so that I do not think it would have been possible, lest he already believe anew… so the two, baptism and regeneration would seem linked, one the challenge (be baptized like so many other Jews were), the other the effectuator(a rekindled,revived spirit).
mcq72 is right MT… John 3 gives a contrast which mcq72 spelled out for you. ONE who is born of water (flesh in verse 6) and the spirit is now qualified to ENTER God’s ways.First, like I already said why would Jesus tell Nicodemus, someone who is already alive that he must first be born of amniotic fluid? I don’t buy the out of love Jesus rolled with it argument.
Nicodemus did believe, or he would not have been there! He had grace working in his soul that led him to seek Jesus. Had the rest of the Sanhedrin found out, they would not have approved.Not sure what you mean by “belief”. Nicodemus did not believe . He did not have any saving faith. His faith didn’t need something else. it was ineffectual on its own.
The Apostles never separated the Holy Spirit from the waters of baptism, which is why we do not.Nicodemus needed spiritual healing, rebirth and cleansing, as did all jews (hence the baptizing)
But God did draw Nicodemus to Himself.God will not reveal Himself to the proud , or those who think they need no physician.
It is not the “water” that regenerates, but the Holy Spirit, through the Water, as Peter teaches.I do not believe water baptism regenerates, though it can be associated with new life.
The idea that a person cannot believe unless they are “born again already” is a Calvanistic concept that did not appear until 1500 years after the Apostles taught the faith. It is a relatively modern innovation. That being said, Catholics will agree that adults must be quickened by prevenient grace to do what Nicodemus did in coming to Christ. His faith had to develop by hearing the Word of God. The CC teaches that no one can be baptized without a profession of faith.And I would say no one can believe unto salvation unless they be born again already. And this “faith”, cometh by hearing , and hearing by and from the Word of God.
At least we can agree on something!Baptism in OT was not a sign, or an effectuating rite for regeneration, or being born again.
Wait…we agree that John’s baptism was not regenerative, so how could it be a stumbling block? Jesus had not even begun baptizing yet!Yet by the time of John’s and the apostles baptism, it was the new stumbling block, or divider between believers who were born again and those who were not.
This is very confusing…so you are saying that those who got the Baptism of John were already born again?The outward sign of a inner spiritual life. John’s baptism may have been a sign of inner life , but not regenerative in itself.
What kind of baptism do you imagine this was?Don’t even know if apostles baptism was either, or if they baptized in any name .
How is it you are so certain about this? what makes you think the instructions on how to baptize were not given sooner?Certainly the trinitarian formula command, and its meaning of associating the Lords’ death and resurrection came just before Ascension, and probably not during the apostles ministry when the Lord was physically with them.
So what make Nicodemus come to Jesus?Only by the Father quickening ones spirit, dead in trespasses and sin, can one see the Messiah for whom He is.
Why on earth would Jesus chide him for something that had never been taught before?!I believe he was chided because of forgetting the need for spiritual birth, or that enlightenment comes from above
You are expecting a religious Jew to know something that had never before been taught to the Jews?Nicodemus should have known that to rightly see his current events surrounding John and the Lord’s ministry, you have to be born again.
I would hope that you would not contradict the teachings of Jesus, and allow such a person to be baptized without a profession of faith! If you adhere to “believers baptism” then where would you meeet people who acted like this?I have yet to meet someone who says they didn’t believe before baptism but upon rising from the waters then believed.
The Apostles taugth that sealing is done by the Holy Spirit in baptism, though i do agree that it is important to make a confession of faith prior to baptism.I have also not met anyone who say they believe, and are born again, but have not sealed salvation by confession from the mouth, sealing it (as is done in water baptism).
Except that natural human birth is never referred to in Scripture as “born of water”. Natural human childbirth is always associated with blood. Being born of water is peculiar to water baptism.ohn 3 gives a contrast which mcq72 spelled out for you. ONE who is born of water (flesh in verse 6) and the spirit is now qualified to ENTER God’s ways.
I guess you Calvanists need to sort this out, since one Reformed Christain is saying he should have known he needed to be born again, and the other is sayin git is a “new truth”. I will go with you on this one, tgG. There is no way that Nicodemus could have been exposed to this before, as it was a new revelation from God.Jesus was showing a new and living truth Nicodemus didn’t know.
I tried to let this go but I can’t.Not sure what you mean by “belief”. Nicodemus did not believe . He did not have any saving faith. His faith didn’t need something else. it was ineffectual on its own.
Where does it say this?. As NT says , he was not circumcised in his heart