Questions about when people get "saved"

[ltwin]

We were created NEW on the inside, in seed form. Until or unless it is cultivated and worked out, in terms of spiritual maturity, our true nature “in Christ” will be concealed. Work out, what God has worked in …

It is true that there is a maturation that takes place. However, this does not mean that new Christians will continue to act like non-Christians for the foreseeable future. It does not mean that their true nature must be “concealed.” Yes, there may be sins and complications of their pre-conversion lives that have to be worked out, but even these new Christians share in the promises of God—they are “dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” and “sin will have no dominion” over them (Romans 6) .

If you think that by simply accepting Jesus Christ as savior, the power of sin is removed, you are kidding yourself. John said that if “we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. 1s.John 1:10.

The power of sin is removed in those who are truly justified—even in the newly converted. This is simply Scriptural truth and more it is who we are as sons and daughters of God. We are dead to sin and alive in the Spirit:

6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

It is the privilege of every Christian, not just the mature ones, to live free from bondage to sin. This does not mean that we will be sinless in this life, but it does mean we do not have to settle for being slaves to sin.

The power of sin is broken in our life. Praise God! This is what Charles Wesley meant in the hymn “O for a Thousand Tongues to Sing” when he wrote:

He breaks the power of canceled sin,
He sets the prisoner free;
His blood can make the foulest clean,
His blood availed for me.

Sin is not only canceled (forgiven), but its power over our lives is broken. We are not enslaved to it any longer—unless we choose to submit to it.

 

[tgGodsway]

It does not mean that their true nature must be “concealed.”

Of course not. That is not God’s will. Yet even Paul struggled over sin and realized that when he sinned, it was an act of blindness to the true reality that Christ is his life.

 

[ltwin]

John was a realist for sure. John goes on to say, “by this we know that we KNOW Him, if we keep His commandments.” v4 He who says, ‘I know HIM’ and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.” John was talking about Christians in the context.

Therefore, it follows that if we say we have faith in Christ but we do not keep his commandments then we are liars and the truth is not in us. Therefore, if that is us, we are not truly converted and need to be.

 

[tgGodsway]

The power of sin is removed in those who are truly justified—

If this is true then why did the N.T. writers take so much time exhorting the justified to not sin? If sin’s power is taken away, then temptation is meaningless.

 

[ltwin]

If this is true then why did the N.T. writers take so much time exhorting the justified to not sin? If sin’s power is taken away, then temptation is meaningless.

First, the power of sin is broken in Christ, but we can still choose to not believe Christ and therefore fall once again under condemnation.

Second, the justified are constantly being exhorted not to sin as a warning against just the type of “cheap grace” and antinomianism that keeps popping up all the time, as this thread demonstrates.

As a warning against the type of “preachers” who mislead people into a false sense of security—“say this prayer and that means you’re saved.” “Do this good deed (out of fear of punishment) and everything will be ok.” It is dangerous to give people false assurance. Our security is found in Christ and him alone. If we are united to Christ, we live for him–not ourselves.

 

[tgGodsway]

power over our lives is broken. We are not enslaved to it any longer—unless we choose to submit to it.

I agree with everything youve said here but you are leaving our one very important element of though. Sin’s power is broken off, that is true, but only by those who “die to it.”. It is not automatically removed like sin’s penalty. The justified believer must learn how to possess his body in sanctification. Not TO BE saved, but BECAUSE he is saved.

 

[ltwin]

I agree with everything youve said here but you are leaving our one very important element of though. Sin’s power is broken off, that is true, but only by those who “die to it.”. It is not automatically removed like sin’s penalty. The justified believer must learn how to possess his body in sanctification. Not TO BE saved, but BECAUSE he is saved.

And what you are leaving out is that there are those people who have been deceived or have deceived themselves into believing that you can be saved by lip service. You cannot. Faith is more than just mentally believing God is real. It is more than just expressing this mental belief. Faith is trusting in Christ and him alone. There are people in this world who say they have faith in Christ but are not trusting in him.

 

[MT1926]

O my goodness, WHY?.. the tribulation period will be when the world goes mad. They will say ‘its the Christians fault’. Let’s kill them! And many will die. Other who endure shall be saved from it. Why is this so hard for you MT, unless you are just jerking my chain.

Why would you think I’m jerking your chain? I’m the one here sincerely asking questions. None of which you have given me a straight forward answer on. No offense but you answering every one of my questions with "O my goodness, WHY? or What Race? or The end of what? or that’s nonsensical or when I ask something about Matthew 24 you say Mt 10 is not fully developed.

Sure looks to me like I’m the one being jerked around here.

Kindly give a straight answer to any one of the questions I have asked you above. If you need me to re list them I will gladly copy and past them for you.

I will try asking one more time. The point I’m trying to make is your definition of verse 13 makes it “nonsensical”. It has no meaning. There is no reason for Jesus to say the one that endures the persecution until the persecution is over is the one who will be saved from the persecution.

If the meaning of the word saved means saved from suffering persecution then that makes no sense because it’s obvious that they already suffered.

If the meaning of the word saved here is the ones left standing then there’s was no reason for the inspired writer to quote Jesus stating such an obvious point here.

No if Jesus is saying the one that endures to the end of the Tribulation is the one that will be saved. Then we can understand the the end is the second coming which is the end of the world which can only mean that the ones that endure to the end are the ones that are saved by going to heaven. Which would mean Jesus is speaking of salvation here.

God Bless

 

[ltwin]

again I must point you to 1st. John 4:1 and 2. Test the spirits to see if they are of God. Every spirit who confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh IS OF GOD. There is the kind of “fruit” you should look for. You shall know them by their fruit… the fruit of their lips. Their confession of faith.

And the Fruit of the Spirit:

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

If we truly have faith, our lives should be characterized by the fruit of the Spirit, not the works of the flesh.

Can the unsaved natural man make such a confession that Jesus Christ is God come in flesh. 4:2,3 says NO. see also 1st. John 5;1

You are taking this verse out of context. He is talking about the false prophets who were visiting the churches and denying that Jesus had not “come in the flesh.” This is a warning against listening to preachers who teach heresy. He was telling the people of the churches not to accept everyone who claims to be one of you–examine what they believe.

Obviously, this does not mean that the “unsaved natural man” is physically incapable of uttering with his lips that “Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh.” People do that all the time who are demonstrably not saved.

If this is the case then the Pharisees, who all had outward works for everyone to see, would have accepted their Messiah. They had this kind of fruit, outwardly, but inwardly, they were dead to Christ.

The Pharisees practiced legalism, works righteousness and hypocrisy. This is why they were condemned: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others” (Matt 23:23) They neglected the greatest of the commandments—to love God and love others. That is true righteousness. Everything else is a show.

Yes, they were dead tombs on the inside, and so they tried to hide what they were with paint and external beauty (Matthew 23:27). There is a lesson here for us—works cannot save us, adherence to a legal or ethical code cannot save us. We must be born again and changed from the inside out. The fruit we display must be motivated by love and gratitude to God.

And yet, there is more . . .

 

[ltwin]

Outward works prove nothing! Beware of false prophets who come to you in SHEEP’S CLOTHING, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Is not the sheep’s clothing symbolic of outward signs, or outward works, they look like a sheep, they smell like a sheep, they sound like a sheep,… everything external says SHEEP. but inwardly they are not sheep at all. …

Yes, there are people who put on a great show of external godliness who like the Pharisees are nothing but whitewashed tombs. I am not asking you to imitate them. At the same time, I am also trying to point out that there is another equally bad extreme—those who confess with their mouth that they have been saved but then go on living lives of unrepentant sin. This is wrong. Just as we have to ask ourselves “Am I one of the Pharisees?” we also must ask ourselves “have I fallen into willful sin?”

You shall know them by their fruit. What kind of fruit did Matthew have in mind?

Doctrine (are they teaching sound biblical truth), lifestyle (are they living like a Christian?), and love (are they showing love to the brethren). Just saying, “Hey I’m a Christian” isn’t quite what he had in mind.

You must qualify that. I’m not trying to resist answering, but I have a point here. How much sin becomes quote, “a life of sin?” and on what biblical bases?

What I mean is what Paul talked about in Hebrews 10:

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

If we continue to deliberately sin after conversion and learning the truth, we no longer have a sacrifice for sins. This is serious. If we continue to deliberately sin, we are “trampling underfoot” Jesus! We are profaning his blood. We are insulting the Holy Spirit.

This is dangerous because if it continues it leads to the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit that Jesus talked about in Mark 3:22–30 and Matthew 12:22–32. We cannot be forgiven because we do not confess and repent and we don’t repent because we have ceased to be convicted. The Holy Spirit is unable to convict us of sin because we have desensitized ourselves to it to such an extent that we cannot even hear the Holy Spirit screaming at us “Stop! This leads to death.” We cannot hear because we long ago stopped caring. We long ago stopped believing. And so we forfeit what Christ died to give us. We forfeit our salvation.

 

[steve-b]

2 Timothy 4:7
For I am already on the point of being sacrificed; the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing."

(no, @steve-b, it is not Sunday!) Paul is talking about having endured to the end of his earthly life.

I wouldn’t say "that Day" mentioned in 2 Tim 4:8 is Sunday. Why would I? It’s not the context.

However, "the Day" in Heb 10:25 refers to Sunday. That is the context.

 

[steve-b]

What I mean is what Paul talked about in Hebrews 10:

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Itwin, what does that refer to in context?

“Those who fail to meet on “the Day” as is the habit of some”

And why is failing to meet on “the Day” such a big sin? What are they doing when they meet on "the Day"? Why is that such a huge sin? Why does it mean those who don’t meet there is

1. no longer a sacrifice for sin for THEM?
2. expectation of judgement, and fury of fire to consume the adversaries of God ?
3. a trampling underfoot of the son Of God ?
4. profaning the blood of the covenant ?
5. outrage for the spirit of grace?

What is the Eucharist?
. John 6:53 RSVCE - So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, - Bible Gateway
. John 6:63-64 RSVCE - It is the spirit that gives life, the - Bible Gateway

What are the words Jesus used to institute the Eucharist?
. Matthew 26:26-28 RSVCE - The Institution of the Lord’s Supper - Bible Gateway
Itwin:

29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Itwin,

That section of Hebrews in context using all the operative words, is talking about the Mass on Sunday, and the celebration of the Eucharist.

 

[ltwin]

Itwin, what does that refer to in context?

What I wrote above.

“Those who fail to meet on “the Day” as is the habit of some”

The actual verses say this: " 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near."

He is telling Christians not to neglect the fellowship of the church and other believers especially as “the Day” draws near. He is not talking about being more encouraging on Friday than on Monday. The “Day” being discussed is not Sunday.

And why is failing to meet on “the Day” such a big sin? What are they doing when they meet on “the Day”? Why is that such a huge sin? Why does it mean those who don’t meet there is

no longer a sacrifice for sin for THEM?
expectation of judgement, and fury of fire to consume the adversaries of God ?
a trampling underfoot of the son Of God ?
profaning the blood of the covenant ?
outrage for the spirit of grace?

He is not talking about the Lord’s Day. In context, he’s talking about Christ’s return and judgment.

Itwin,

That section of Hebrews in context using all the operative words, is talking about the Mass on Sunday, and the celebration of the Eucharist.

Respectfully, I think he isn’t. I think he’s saying quite simply if we keep on deliberately sinning without repentance then we are placing ourselves under condemnation whether we do or don’t attend Mass.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Itwin, what does that refer to in context?

What I wrote above.

“Those who fail to meet on “the Day” as is the habit of some”

The actual verses say this: " 24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near."

He is telling Christians not to neglect the fellowship of the church and other believers especially as “the Day” draws near. He is not talking about being more encouraging on Friday than on Monday. The “Day” being discussed is not Sunday.

And why is failing to meet on “the Day” such a big sin? What are they doing when they meet on “the Day”? Why is that such a huge sin? Why does it mean those who don’t meet there is

no longer a sacrifice for sin for THEM?
expectation of judgement, and fury of fire to consume the adversaries of God ?
a trampling underfoot of the son Of God ?
profaning the blood of the covenant ?
outrage for the spirit of grace?

He is not talking about the Lord’s Day. In context, he’s talking about Christ’s return and judgment.

Really?

How does one fail to meet as is the habit of some, on judgement day? Do you know when judgement day is? do you know when THAT day is drawing near? Do you have an option to meet or not meet on that day as is the habit of some? Point being it is NOT judgement day spoken of.

 

[tgGodsway]

And what you are leaving out is that there are those people who have been deceived or have deceived themselves into believing that you can be saved by lip service. You cannot.

The Matthew 15 passage you site here by the words “lip service,” says absolutely nothing about how one receives or maintains eternal life. Why would you quote it to make your point? This whole thing about “mental ascent” is nothing more than pop psychology. The Bible teaches nothing of the sort. To believe is simply to place your trust in, and accept. In this case 1st John 4 tells us to test the spirits to see if they are of God. Every spirit who confesses Jesus Christ has come in the Flesh, is of God. … Apparently, the apostle John disagrees with your lip service view Itwin.

 

[MT1926]

However, “the Day” in Heb 10:25 refers to Sunday. That is the context.

Why is the Day here only Sunday.

Hebrews 10:25 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

I do agree that the day to meet together in the verse is Sunday and I guess after reading the verse in the context of encourage one another to meet together, we would say sure if today was Wednesday then the Day drawing near is Sunday. However, couldn’t the reason for meeting together be in order to encourage one another to hold fast to the confession of hope (V23). So in this context of HOPE wouldn’t that make the Day drawing near - Judgement Day?

Personally, I guess I would probably say you both are correct and this verse could have layers of meaning.

Your thoughts, @steve-b and @guanophore
God Bless

 

[ltwin]

How does one fail to meet as is the habit of some, on judgement day?

Most Christians meet on Sundays. Yes, Paul is telling us we should go to church on Sundays, but that is not the “day” he’s speaking of at the end of the sentence.

He’s saying that as the Day (which Paul believed was imminent, see 1 Corinthians 7:29 ) approaches, we should commit to encourage one another and stir up one another to love and good works even more.

Do you know when judgement day is? do you know when THAT day is drawing near?

No, but the point is that it is approaching. Every day it is closer than it was before, so every day we should be more encouraging to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Do you have an option to meet or not meet on that day as is the habit of some?

He is talking about Sunday worship here, but the day is not Sunday. The point he’s making is “every day we move closer to the return of Christ and judgment, so why do you neglect to meet with the church when you need it most?”

 

[ltwin]

The Matthew 15 passage you site here by the words “lip service,” says absolutely nothing about how one receives or maintains eternal life. Why would you quote it to make your point?

Where did I cite Matthew 15? When I said “lip service” I was not intentionally citing Scripture. I was stating the obvious. Saying you believe and believing are two different things. But apparently common sense ain’t so common.

But if you really want me to cite Scripture I will give you one, Matthew 7:21, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

This whole thing about “mental ascent” is nothing more than pop psychology. The Bible teaches nothing of the sort.

You can give mental assent to propositional truth, for example, “Jesus Christ has come in the flesh,” without actually having placed your trust in the same Jesus Christ. This is what James meant when he said, “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!” (James 2:19). The demons don’t just believe that God is real, they know God is real and they fear him. Many people know that God is real, and they fear hell but they don’t ever really move beyond that. They are never truly converted, and never filled with God’s love.

In this case 1st John 4 tells us to test the spirits to see if they are of God. Every spirit who confesses Jesus Christ has come in the Flesh, is of God. … Apparently, the apostle John disagrees with your lip service view Itwin.

And First John also tells us “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:9). If you confess with your mouth but continue the “practice of sinning” that means ultimately you are not born of God.

So, do you believe that everyone who says “Lord Lord” goes to heaven even if they continue to practice willful, deliberate sin?

 

[tgGodsway]

And the Fruit of the Spirit:

Itwin, … you know as well as I do that fruit on a tree doesn’t come first it comes last.
I agree Christians should bear God’s fruit in their season. And I also agree that if they do not bear fruit for God, then all that is left is fruit for satan=the flesh. And again, I agree they shall not inherit the kingdom of God. All agreed.

But where is your point here?

 

[MT1926]

Itwin, … you know as well as I do that fruit on a tree doesn’t come first it comes last.

I agree Christians should bear God’s fruit in their season. And I also agree that if they do not bear fruit for God, then all that is left is fruit for satan=the flesh. And again, I agree they shall not inherit the kingdom of God. All agreed.

But where is your point here?

Just a heads up, @ltwin I’m pretty sure the way you define “kingdom of God” is different than tgG’s definition. So you might want to come to common ground on what he means by kingdom of God before you go round and round for 20 or 30 post just to find out you aren’t on the same page. I’ve already been down this road, just trying to save your both some time.

God Bless