Questions about when people get "saved"

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steve-b:
How does one fail to meet as is the habit of some, on judgement day?
Itwin:
Most Christians meet on Sundays. Yes, Paul is telling us we should go to church on Sundays, but that is not the “day” he’s speaking of at the end of the sentence.

He’s saying that as the Day (which Paul believed was imminent, see 1 Corinthians 7:29 ) approaches, we should commit to encourage one another and stir up one another to love and good works even more.
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steve-b:
Again, do you know when judgement day is coming? And how is it that people are already failing to meet as is the habit of some, as they see the Day drawing near?
Itwin:
No, but the point is that it is approaching. Every day it is closer than it was before, so every day we should be more encouraging to our brothers and sisters in Christ.
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steve-b:
Hebrews was written 2000 years ago. How is the DAY spoken of, judgement Day? And how is it already the habit of some back then, to already be in the habit of not meeting on “the Day” such that the warning is already going out don’t continue to do that?
Do you have an option to meet or not meet on that day “judgement Day” as is the habit of some?
He is talking about Sunday worship here,
Exactly.
Itwin:
but the day is not Sunday. The point he’s making is “every day we move closer to the return of Christ and judgment, so why do you neglect to meet with the church when you need it most?”
There is only one Day mentioned. In context, The Day of meeting. And what are they doing when they meet on that Day? The context is, they are celebrating the Eucharist. These are Hebrews. We are NOT talking about the Sabbath, it is warning those who are in the habit already , of NOT meeting on the “Lord’s Day” (Sunday) and celebrating the Eucharist.

One can’t warn someone of a Day ( judgement Day) to meet that no body knows when that Day is coming.
 
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steve-b:
However, “the Day” in Heb 10:25 refers to Sunday. That is the context.
Why is the Day here only Sunday.

Hebrews 10:25 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

I do agree that the day to meet together in the verse is Sunday and I guess after reading the verse in the context of encourage one another to meet together, we would say sure if today was Wednesday then the Day drawing near is Sunday. However, couldn’t the reason for meeting together be in order to encourage one another to hold fast to the confession of hope (V23). So in this context of HOPE wouldn’t that make the Day drawing near - Judgement Day?

Personally, I guess I would probably say you both are correct and this verse could have layers of meaning.

Your thoughts, @steve-b and @guanophore
God Bless
here’s my thoughts Questions about when people get "saved" - #1155 by steve-b
 
—those who confess with their mouth that they have been saved but then go on living lives of unrepentant sin.
I totally agree with you here too. It makes me angry to hear such people confess Christ but yet live life like the devil himself. I know a few. They are unrepentant and not right with God.

These are those who I would TEST to see if they are truly born again. According to the Apostle John, if they can confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, they belong to God! Only through the power of the Holy Spirit can anyone make such a declaration of revelation. Remember Peter’s revelation.

But belonging to God is one thing, We belong to Him based solely on the finished work of Christ alone, but obeying God requires a higher standard, a standard we call discipleship. This category is not the flip-side of the same coin. And discipleship is not a guaranteed enrollment. Jesus said it this way, unless you hate your father and mother and brother and sister and even your own life, YOU CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE. Of course He used hyperbole, but the message is clear. If you want to enroll in His class of learning, there is a high price for any Christian to pay.
 
I totally agree with you here too. It makes me angry to hear such people confess Christ but yet live life like the devil himself. I know a few. They are unrepentant and not right with God.

These are those who I would TEST to see if they are truly born again. According to the Apostle John, if they can confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, they belong to God! Only through the power of the Holy Spirit can anyone make such a declaration of revelation. Remember Peter’s revelation.

But belonging to God is one thing, We belong to Him based solely on the finished work of Christ alone, but obeying God requires a higher standard, a standard we call discipleship. This category is not the flip-side of the same coin. And discipleship is not a guaranteed enrollment. Jesus said it this way, unless you hate your father and mother and brother and sister and even your own life, YOU CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE. Of course He used hyperbole, but the message is clear. If you want to enroll in His class of learning, there is a high price for any Christian to pay.
😲
 
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here’s my thoughts Questions about when people get “saved”
So you are saying I’m wrong and there can be no other interpretation than the one you give?

Now I’m not saying you are wrong and I am right here, but I’m also not saying you have the ONLY correct interpretation.

To be honest until you brought up Sunday and the Eucharist, every time I read these verses I came to the same interpretation as @ltwin
He is telling Christians not to neglect the fellowship of the church and other believers especially as “the Day” draws near. He is not talking about being more encouraging on Friday than on Monday. The “Day” being discussed is not Sunday.
He is not talking about the Lord’s Day. In context, he’s talking about Christ’s return and judgment.
Now that being said, I can honestly say I see and understand the points you are making here. Sure they can be correct. This is the beauty of our Catholic Faith. You read Hebrews 10 and draw something out of it that is important to you and strengthens your Catholic Faith. That’s wonderful. This is the reason the Catholic Church has infallible defined so few verses of scripture. She understands that scripture has layers of meaning. That’s why She gives us the freedom to read and interpret scripture on our own, that is as long as we aren’t pulling heretical concepts from our “misunderstanding”.

That being said I see nothing heretical in your interpretation, if it brings you closer to Jesus in the Eucharist, AMEN Brother.

Even though @ltwin is not Catholic I see no reason why I should object to him breaking verse 25 into two distinct commands (just because he is not Catholic)…
  1. “meeting together on Sunday”
  2. "Encourage each other to fellowship (on Sunday) until Judgement Day.
Nothing he says in his interpretation is heretical to our Catholic Faith.

As a fellow Catholic I am not bound to hold to any interpretation of scripture. I am only bound to disagree with the interpretations that contradict the teachings of the Catholic Church. Whether I believe in your interpretation or @ltwin interpretation or BOTH, does not contradict my Catholic Faith in anyway, so I am free to believe both.

Just my 2 cents.

God Bless
 
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steve-b:
here’s my thoughts Questions about when people get “saved”
To be honest until you brought up Sunday and the Eucharist, every time I read these verses I came to the same interpretation as @ltwin
He is telling Christians not to neglect the fellowship of the church and other believers especially as “the Day” draws near. He is not talking about being more encouraging on Friday than on Monday. The “Day” being discussed is not Sunday.
He is not talking about the Lord’s Day. In context, he’s talking about Christ’s return and judgment.
Now that being said, I can honestly say I see and understand the points you are making here. Sure they can be correct. This is the beauty of our Catholic Faith. You read Hebrews 10 and draw something out of it that is important to you and strengthens your Catholic Faith. That’s wonderful. This is the reason the Catholic Church has infallible defined so few verses of scripture. She understands that scripture has layers of meaning. That’s why She gives us the freedom to read and interpret scripture on our own, that is as long as we aren’t pulling heretical concepts from our “misunderstanding”.

That being said I see nothing heretical in your interpretation, if it brings you closer to Jesus in the Eucharist, AMEN Brother.

Even though @ltwin is not Catholic I see no reason why I should object to him breaking verse 25 into two distinct commands (just because he is not Catholic)…
  1. “meeting together on Sunday”
  2. "Encourage each other to fellowship (on Sunday) until Judgement Day.
Nothing he says in his interpretation is heretical to our Catholic Faith.

As a fellow Catholic I am not bound to hold to any interpretation of scripture. I am only bound to disagree with the interpretations that contradict the teachings of the Catholic Church. Whether I believe in your interpretation or @ltwin interpretation or BOTH, does not contradict my Catholic Faith in anyway, so I am free to believe both.

Just my 2 cents.

God Bless
From the CCC
2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful "not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another."

Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: "This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it."

the “Lord’s day”? Sunday http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=Sunday&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

and the Eucharist http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=eucharist&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
 
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From the CCC

2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age. The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful “not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, but to encourage one another.”

Tradition preserves the memory of an ever-timely exhortation: Come to Church early, approach the Lord, and confess your sins, repent in prayer. . . . Be present at the sacred and divine liturgy, conclude its prayer and do not leave before the dismissal. . . . We have often said: “This day is given to you for prayer and rest. This is the day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.”
AMEN, what’s your point?

I agree with you, never said you were wrong.

But it seems to me that your standing firm is your way of saying I am wrong.

I agree with CCC 2178, however it does not say Sunday worship is the only truth taught in Hebrews 10.
25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
From Dr. Scott Hahn’s commentary in the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible.
10:25 - meet together: As a liturgical assembly. Exclusively private worship apart form the family of faith is discouraged (CCC 2178).
Which is exactly what you are saying. He even references the Catechism.

However, he goes on to say…
the Day: The Day of Judgement. (Which would be our final judgment)

He doesn’t stop there he continues to pull more meaning out of this verse…

In its original context, this may have particular reference to the approaching judgement of Israel (the destruction of the Temple) and the passing away of the Old Covenant with its sanctuary and priesthood.
So it seems to me that the Day can be Sunday, it can also be the Day of our final Judgement and might even be an illusion to the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 AD.

None of which are contrary to our Catholic Faith and all valid interpretations.

Dr. Scott Hahn is one of the smartest theologians I have ever read. I’m sure if the Catholic Church put their seal of approval on the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible that seal covers his interpretation of this verse as well

God Bless
 
Personally, I guess I would probably say you both are correct and this verse could have layers of meaning.
I have acknowledged that it is permissible for someone to use a private interpretation (Sunday) that may not be used by anyone else in the history of Christendom, so long as it does not contradict the teaching of the Church, which this one does not.
 
You are taking this verse out of context. He is talking about the false prophets who were visiting the churches and denying that Jesus had not “come in the flesh.”
A false prophet is anyone who professes or confesses falsely about the person of Christ. Test the spirits to see if they profess falsely about the person of Christ. It does not suggest this person must be in the office of prophet in order to qualify. The command to do so is for every believer. Therefore I am not taking it out of context. “Peter who do men say I am?.. you are the Christ, the Son of the living God,… well done Peter, flesh and blood has not given this to you but my Father in heaven.”

The revelation that Jesus is Messiah or that He is God come in flesh is a revelation which comes only by the Spirit of God. No natural man (in Adam) will agree to this divine truth. So Paul said, TEST people to know who belongs to Christ. Discerning behavior alone is not enough to tell, because people can modify their behavior to some extent, therefore we are back at the =wolves in sheep’s clothing argument.
 
This is dangerous because if it continues it leads to the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit that Jesus talked about in Mark 3:22–30 and Matthew 12:22–32.
Well, if you are trying to link what the author of Hebrews said here with what Mark 3:22-30 and Matthew 12:22-32 said, it is not an apples to apples link. As terrible as it was with the Hebrew situation where converted Jews may have gone back to the elementary practices of Judaism and their ceremonial rituals all because they were persecuted for practicing Christianity, they then by doing so, denied Christ. Agreed. But you have concluded more here than what the passage concluded.

These sanctified believers were trying to save themselves from external persecution, but by doing so, they were trampling under their feet the very blood that sanctified them. This is a denial of their savior in the face of persecution. They returned to the strict code of Law-keeping and ceremony, to cover themselves. But God clearly said, “The Lord will judge HIS people.”

So, now the author has brought this situation to the judgment seat of Christ where all Christians will be judged for their WORKS. If the scenario in Hebrews actually happened, (which we don’t know, because the author used a potential situation, rather than a real one) then these believers will stand at the Judgment seat of Christ and give an account of their works.

What is the purpose of the Judgment Seat of Christ to you?
 
A false prophet is anyone who professes or confesses falsely about the person of Christ. Test the spirits to see if they profess falsely about the person of Christ. It does not suggest this person must be in the office of prophet in order to qualify. The command to do so is for every believer. Therefore I am not taking it out of context. “Peter who do men say I am?.. you are the Christ, the Son of the living God,… well done Peter, flesh and blood has not given this to you but my Father in heaven.”
You are taking it out of context. Read Chapter 3:

4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

This is how we know who are the children of God. This is our evidence. Not simply belief–because even demons believe and they are damned. Those who are righteous practice righteousness. Yes, this is by faith but our faith will be evident. We will not “make a practice of sinning.”
The revelation that Jesus is Messiah or that He is God come in flesh is a revelation which comes only by the Spirit of God. No natural man (in Adam) will agree to this divine truth. So Paul said, TEST people to know who belongs to Christ. Discerning behavior alone is not enough to tell, because people can modify their behavior to some extent, therefore we are back at the =wolves in sheep’s clothing argument.
And their confession is also not enough to take at face value because people say what they don’t mean all the time. People are disingenuous. It is possible for the unregenerate to say, “Jesus is Lord.” It is physically possible. They can open their mouths and say it but in their hearts they don’t mean it.

Wolves in Sheeps clothing also declare that Jesus is Lord. Otherwise, there would be no confusion because we’d all know who was a wolf because the wolves could not profess faith in Christ.
 
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But you have concluded more here than what the passage concluded.
No, I have taken the passage at its word. If we who know God reject God, we have rejected the only sacrifice for sin. Jesus is the sacrifice. There will never be another. If you reject him, you carry the guilt of your own sin, and you will be judged accordingly. The penalty for breaking the Law of Moses was death. If you reject Christ, the penalty is eternal death.
But God clearly said, “The Lord will judge HIS people.”
Yes, because these people knew the truth and rejected Him. They will be judged as people with full knowledge. Many Jews of Paul’s day thought they would not be judged because they were the chosen people (children of Abraham, Luke 3:7-8), which is why Paul bends over backwards in Romans to emphasize that all will be judged: the Jews first (because their privilege and knowledge was greater) and also the gentiles (Romans 2:9-11).
So, now the author has brought this situation to the judgment seat of Christ where all Christians will be judged for their WORKS. If the scenario in Hebrews actually happened, (which we don’t know, because the author used a potential situation, rather than a real one) then these believers will stand at the Judgment seat of Christ and give an account of their works.
They will stand before Christ without a sacrifice for sin. They will not be clothed in his righteousness, and they will be found guilty of trampling underfoot the Son of God, profaning the blood of the covenant and outraging the Spirit of grace – unless they repented.
 
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And First John also tells us “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:9). If you confess with your mouth but continue the “practice of sinning” that means ultimately you are not born of God.
This is tragic Itwin. You may want to check your translation here on 1st. John 3:9 but then return to the authorized version on this one. The NIV, Century Version, American Standard and so many others translations read their bias into the passage by changing the tense solution without warrant.

It is claimed that this tense requires a translation like, “whoever has been born of God does not go on sinning,” or. “does not continually sin.” The conclusion to be drawn is that though the Christian may sin somewhat (how much is never specified) he may not sin regularly or persistently.

But on all grounds, whether linguistic or exegetical, this approach is indefensible. The appeal to the present tense has long invited suspicion. No other text can be cited where the Greek present tense unaided by qualifying words can carry this kind of special treatment. When the Greek writer or speaker wished to indicate that an action was, or was not, continual, there were special words to express this. You might call them “qualifying words.” Such as when we read passages like John 3:16, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have “eternal” life. The word “eternal” qualifies the kind of life the author intended to mean.

Secondly, (back to 1st. John 3:9) we should be able to use this same treatment on any other “like” passage. For instance:, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. no one “continually” comes to the Father except through Me.” John 14:6. This is crazy because it suggest that occasionally someone might come another way.

How about 1st. John 1:8, with the special pleading: “If we say we do not “continually” have sin, we deceive ourselves an the truth is not in us.” But if the tense explanation for 3:9 were correct, we ought to be able to say this here too.

So what are we left with. John said, “whoever has been born of God does not commit sin…” In what sense? … In the same way that Paul said it. "If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. v17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. Ro. 7:16 or “Now If I do what I will NOT to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.” Ro.7:20
 
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continued for ITWIN

In both cases Paul agreed with John that when he sins, his inner man was not a participant. The nature of Christ who lives in him was not at fault. John was simply saying, those who are born again, do not sin from the nature of Christ in them. It is not who they are! When they sin, they conceal their true identity.

Amazingly these same translators, including the Amplified, did not give this same kind of passage the same kind of special treatment. I could name at least five other passages but I hope you get my point here.

So the entire bases of your argument here is all about this perpetual state of sinless living one must supposedly keep.
 
I am talking specifically about Calling Jesus God=anointed one=messiah. John said that those of the anti-Christ spirit CANNOT do this. " every spirit that confesses not…" It is not within them to come to such a revelation otherwise what good is it to test the spirits if the test doesn’t actually work.
 
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So the entire bases of your argument here is all about this perpetual state of sinless living one must supposedly keep.
No one is talking about sinless living. You are talking about sinful living, however.
I am talking specifically about Calling Jesus God=anointed one=messiah. John said that those of the anti-Christ spirit CANNOT do this. " every spirit that confesses not…" It is not within them to come to such a revelation otherwise what good is it to test the spirits if the test doesn’t actually work.
So, everyone who says “Jesus is Lord and my savior” is saved? Even if they intentionally tell us they are lying or did it as a joke? It doesn’t matter because the spirit in them would not have allowed them to say this if it was not of God? Simple, say some magic incantation and you’re heaven bound?

This is no different from the ritualism Protestants have historically accused Catholics of. (Note, I’m not accusing Catholics, just noting the irony of Protestant ritualism)
 
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Yes, because these people knew the truth and rejected Him. They will be judged as people with full knowledge. Many Jews of Paul’s day thought they would not be judged because they were the chosen people (children of Abraham, Luke 3:7-8), which is why Paul bends over backwards in Romans to emphasize that all will be judged: the Jews first (because their privilege and knowledge was greater) and also the gentiles (Romans 2:9-11).
Here is the good news you’re missing Itwin: the judgment seat of Christ is not a judgment of sin at all. I try to convince the Catholics of this all the time. There is no judgment over your sin! Why not, because (from the Father’s point of view) he only sees the purity of His Son. Judgment has passed over us when Christ’ blood was shed 2000 years ago. The Father doesn’t see your sin because it was eradicated through the work of Christ. The Father took all of your sin, past, present, and even your future sins, and nailed them to the cross.

The judgment seat of Christ is a judgment to evaluate your works both good and bad. He will then see if you earned an inheritance.

The Hebrew Christians who potentially denied Christ will stand and gnash their teen at their stupidity when they denied the truth to their persecutors. But the blood of Christ covered them because the bible said they were sanctified, meaning that positionally, they were in Christ and possessed eternal life by grace through faith and apart from works.
see. John 5:24.
The judgment seat of Christ will be many things to different people. For some it will be a time of great celebration and reward. For others, it will be the “terror of the Lord” for their failure to make an investment. It will be a relinquishment of inheritance because of their stubbornness. They will not inherit the earth, or the kingdom. Yet they will enter it.
 
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No one is talking about sinless living. You are talking about sinful living, however.
And you are talking about a vague non-answer to the penalty of sin. Either the penalty has been eradicated, or it remains on each person. My position is that your sin and mine has no penalty attached. Only sin’s power remains for those who refuse to “die to it.” The selfish Christian who wants to live for self, and love self, will lose much at the judgment seat.
 
And you are talking about a vague non-answer to the penalty of sin. Either the penalty has been eradicated, or it remains on each person. My position is that your sin and mine has no penalty attached. Only sin’s power remains for those who refuse to “die to it.” The selfish Christian who wants to live for self, and love self, will lose much at the judgment seat.
I’m saying that Christ did not die just to remove the penalty of sin–he died to free us from sin’s power. This is not just for your so called “disciples.” This is for everyone. Christ wants everyone to not only be declared righteous but to actually become righteous as they are conformed to his image.

All Christians must die to sin. This isn’t optional. “Selfish Christian” is an oxymoron, as is “Powerless Gospel”.
 
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