Questions for charismatics

[Les_Richardson]

I would like to pose a couple of questions to the charismatics that travel this forum. If you are not aware of it already, I am skeptical. In fact, the more arguments I read from charismatics on these threads the more I am confirmed in my skepticism. In fairness, a number of posters have acknowledged “abuses” and usually in the context that we should not condemn a movement based on the abuses. So my questions;

What would you consider an “abuse” generally?

*Can there be abuse of the gift of tongues? Or prayer language? How so? **Can there be abuse of the phenomenon of being “slain in the spirit”? How so? *Could there ever be a deception in the source of tongues or falling? *If not, why not? **If so, from where would the deception come? From the person or other persons? From another spirit? *How would you recognize a deception in yourself? In another person or persons? In a group?

How would you characterize abuses? Are they theological abuses? Disciplinary? Or Pastoral?

A personal opinion. As broad and fast moving as the CCR has been, and the world-wide numbers are truly incredible, I truly believe that it is broad but not deep enough in most places. That is a general statement and not intended as a slight on any person or parish or diocese. I also think that the future of the movement must be to gain that depth in order to make permanent gains in true converts to Jesus Christ and His Church. Part of the problem, again in my opinion, is a very narrow focus, in many places, on specific phenomena. There seems to be an irrational attachment to what, in the larger picture, is minor in importance (*the least of the gifts – *St. Paul). That tends to stall the further accomplishment, the further great work that the movement could have if it were not intrinsically identified with those things, and so defensive when challenged on them. There are so many more gifts. The picture I get from these boards, at least, is a movement going into stall, not seeing the big picture, theologically, evangelistically and pastorally speaking.

If this movement will truly vitalize and act as leaven for the entire Church, sooner or later, it will have to deal with people like me, and there are many, skeptical in the area of tongues, falling and the “signs and wonders” phenomena and manner of thinking. There are many of us who would gladly call ourselves charismatic if there was not such an inordinate focus on those things.

I willingly acknowledge that there are charismatic churches and apostolates that have moved well beyond and are doing yeoman’s work in spreading the gospel to pagans and catechizing Catholics with very little knowledge of their faith. God bless them.

My fear is that we are going to wind up with two churches, if we haven’t already, the charismatic and the non-charismatic, all because of what St. Paul thoroughly dealt with in his letters to the Church at Corinth almost 2000 years ago.

If I have offended anyone in this post, my apologies. But I don’t believe this is just academic and “you do your thing and I’ll do mine.” I can visualize such great things that we could accomplish together, in unity, outward focused on the great commission of evangelization from our Lord and reiterated over and over by the Holy Father.

 

[FrankvT]

I would like to know why at charismatic prayer meetings people pray in tongues and other things happen that are associated with charismatic prayer groups but not at traditional prayer groups. Is not the Holy Spirit present at any true meaning prayer group? Why doesn’t tongues happen at any prayer time to anybody?

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

FrankvT:

I would like to know why at charismatic prayer meetings people pray in tongues and other things happen that are associated with charismatic prayer groups but not at traditional prayer groups. Is not the Holy Spirit present at any true meaning prayer group? Why doesn’t tongues happen at any prayer time to anybody?

First Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Corinthians
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Of the diversity of spiritual gifts. The members of the mystical body, like those of the natural body, must mutually cherish one another. 1 Now concerning spiritual things, my brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 You know that when you were heathens, you went to dumb idols, according as you were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man, speaking by the Spirit of God, saith Anathema to Jesus. And no man can say the Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit; 5 And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord; 6 And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all. 7 And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit. 8 To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; 9 To another, faith in the same spirit; to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit; 10 To another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, the discerning of spirits; to another, diverse kinds of tongues; to another, interpretation of speeches.

We think St Paul may be talking about the gift of tongues here.
St Paul also tells us not to waste our time if there is noone to interpret it. I personally am not into it.

 

[robertaf]

What a great thread and what very good questions.

I was just heading for bed but couldn’t resist stopping for a minute and at least addressing a small part. As I have said before (probably far too many times but grant an old broad some slack when it comes to repeating oneself! ) I have been with the Renewal from almost the very beginning. At least if we do not count Pentecost and the other moves of the Holy Spirit down through history.

I have been a leader, a teacher and often, just a participant. I have been involved with thousands and thousands of Charismatics.

In my opinion, one of the greatest abuses has been due to the lack of Pastoral Participation. When Prayer Groups are given permission from the Pastor to gather together in the Parish, but has no Pastoral leadership, too often the person left to lead, lacking Pastoral gifts goes off searching, most often in non-Catholic Charismatic groups where non-Catholic pastors do take up leadership. These folks are very often very sincere in their desire to help and even in ecumenical worship. As a result, solid Catholic doctrine is usually compromised. Ironically, the Prayer group is sometimes chastised by the Priest for “going Protestant”. We have begged, prayed and nagged our Priests to take part in the Renewal. We have invited Deacons and other good teachers in the Church to help out. Usually the refusals are due to predjudices against the Charismatic Renewal, without much basis.

Those of us who have been in the Renewal for many years have worked long and hard to keep Catholic Charismatics, Catholic. We know that genuine CCR draws people deeper into the Sacraments. We also know the Pastor has a responsibility to be the Spiritual leader of the Parish and to participate to some degree in the Spiritual growth of his Congregation, even if part of that Spiritual Growth is in the Charismatic Renewal.
Our Holy Father Blesses it and so does most Diocese.

I urge you to go to your Pastors and ask them to step up to the plate. We Charismatics do not see any reason why we should have to bring Priests in from out of town for Charismatic or Healing Masses when our own Pastors are gifted and are truly Charismatic.

 

[Mysty101]

I second what Roberta has said.

Leadership is the most importand t aspect of CCR. Good authentic leadership=good authentic group.

Are the leaders good practicing Catholics? Is their theology sound?

I am very fortunate in that respect. Our Pastor is very active in our group, and our conference is under archdiocesean leadership.

 

[1_Maria]

Robert, have you ever made an appointment with your pastor to discuss this problem?

Perhaps he sees the CCR in a far different light than you do. It may be something that you could work out to his satisfaction.

We need to always remember and acknowledge that it is the pastor who has the grace to know what’s best for the parish.

Maria

 

[RichT]

Can there be abuses? Absolutely! Just like the possibility of abuses in any situation, charasmatic or not. Let me share a couple of experiences with you from my days as a pentecostal bible thumping charasmatic from the Assemblies of God church.

During our Sunday worship it was not unusual for someone to stand up and deliver a message in tongues, and then of course, someone would stand up and translate it for the whole congregation to hear. These messages were almost always given by the same two people. We had a total congregation of about 2000. Were they the only two in the entire church that had those gifts? Maybe, maybe not, but they were apparently the only two who were wiling to use their gifts. On a couple of occasions, there was another person who would stand up and give a message in tongues. Everytime this happened, someone would escort that person out of the church. Apparently they were from another church and had a history of coming to our church and causing disruptions.

I always wondered how a person determined if these people were really gifted or they were just faking it, or perhaps wanting the gift so bad they were forcing it. I realized very quickly that was not for me to judge. I took most of it with a grain of salt, and focused on my personal worship. I felt it was better not to get hung up on whether or not this was a real manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

I can also tell you about being at prayer meetings where people would pray and ask to be baptised in the Holy Spirit. They would get so frustrated when they couldn’t speak in tongues. They felt that God was passing them by for some reason.

At some point in time I learned about the gift of tongues as a prayer language. I remember hearing this language many times at prayer meetings or on Sunday during worship. I remember thinking to myself how beautiful this was. It was really amazing to watch and listen to someone so deep into their worship that they allowed themselves to become completely immersed with the presence of God. Is it an emotional state? In my opinion, yes, and maybe that is why so many have problems with it.

Anyway, my point is that yes there can be abuses. In fact there will always be abuses. We have to learn to use our gifts of discernment to avoid being caught up in something that isn’t right. Does that mean the charasmatic movement is wrong? Absolutely not. I am charasmatic. I don’t have the gift of tongues, but I have many other gifts, including tongues as a prayer language. I attend a parish where you wont find anyone speaking in tongues during mass. You will hear it at prayer meetings.

I believe our pastor is a great leader in making sure that we celebrate mass in a reverent manner, without allowing our worship to stray from the appropriate way in which it should be done. I feel this leadership is important to prevent things from becoming to spontaneous. There are certain restraints that are practiced during mass.

I don’t think we are at risk of having two churches. We already have more than twenty. We already have different masses that are celebrated so people can attend a mass they prefer. You can go to a TLM, a NO mass, or you can worship in the Byzantine Rite, etc… The point is that there is plenty of room for charsmatics as well. With leadership from our clergy, the charasmatic movement can be very successful. I agree with Roberta when she speaks of a lack of leadership from our clergy. Have some charasmatic parishes gotten a little out of control? Yes, just as many non-charasmatic parishes have. It’s time for the church to step up to the plate and become the leaders they need to be.

 

[1_Maria]

Nice post, Rich, well said.

I’m happy to see that your CCR group has a great rapport with the pastor.

RichT:

I believe our pastor is a great leader in making sure that we celebrate mass in a reverent manner, without allowing our worship to stray from the appropriate way in which it should be done. I feel this leadership is important to prevent things from becoming to spontaneous. There are certain restraints that are practiced during mass.

Maria

 

[Les_Richardson]

Thanks for the post RichT. That is kind of what I was hoping for. If you don’t mind, or someone else could answer, do you know what it is you are saying in the prayer tongue?

Also, from your perspective and experience, you mentioned that some people wanted the gift of tongues badly. Would it be your view that tongues are a common gift, or rare? The reason I ask is that in two programs used by Catholics, LISS and ALPHA, there is a direct encouragement to attempt some sort of language. It is a part of the group dynamic that there is an expectation of gifts, in particular tongues, and the participants are told to try a few words or a word, and develop a “tongue” from there.

Would you think that is really a gift from the Holy Spirit or more along the line of “Human Suggestion” that Fr Most talks about as one of the three sources of such manifestations?

I am interested that there was interpretation accompanying the speaking in tongues, in your former church. And the speakers spoke one at a time, thus in an orderly fashion. That is in direct compliance with St. Paul’s rule as set out for the Corinthian church and I would say, a proper inclusion of the gift of tongues. But of course, it wasn’t a Catholic Mass, in which interrupting the liturgy would be a gross abuse.

Returning to the desire to speak in tongues, did you ever hear anyone discourage that desire as does St. Paul in his admonition to the Corinthians? That, in my mind is a serious problem in the courses I mentioned above. The reverse is true. Tongues are encouraged to the point that people feel pressure to speak in tongues or be left out. That comes from an erroneous theology, the idea that unless you speaks in tongues you haven’t been “baptized” by the Holy Spirit. Obviously, that was not the teaching of your former church.

The reason I am concerned that there may be two churches is two fold.

First, the teaching of the expectation of tongues is a non-Catholic theology. In the spirit of the age we live in, the self-centered experience oriented society has influenced the thinking and manner of evangelization of the Church, in some places. Thus, I am concerned that some have been sold the sizzle, the razzle-dazzle and are Christians for as long as they are stimulated regularly. If the Church were to implement across the board, the rules layed down by St. Paul, in spirit and letter, would some Christians question their faith? Is it deep enough to be strong and vibrant even if they never spoke in tongues or fell over backward for the rest of their life? Or is that all of Christianity for them? If they have been deceived, who is going to tell them?

Second, the entire idea of the CCR as I have heard it explained and proclaimed and have heard in these threads, is a renewal of the entire church. The leaders of the renewal are not interested in a side-bar alternative form of worship. They would like to see, as I would like to see, a broad based spiritual revitalization of the Catholic Church, so that nominal Catholics and so-called cafeteria Catholics are a small minority, and the vast majority of Catholics are orthodox, committed, spiritually deep believers in Jesus Christ, much like they were in the days of the apostles and like the people you meet in these forums.

But that won’t happen through the CCR if it continues to be identified with tongues and falling as a primary feature of the movement accompanied by theological error, designed to justify the signs and wonders style evangelism.

 

[Exporter]

Les Richardson thanks for your well written introduction. You express the thoughts of the vast majority of us average Catholics. I have read that centering draws us into ourselves - and not outward to God.

robertaf, you say you have lead thousands in Charismatic situations. I wonder if there are any safeguards whatsoever to protect the mentally ill, the retarded and the unstable from harm. I see a dangerous element hovering around groups who are thrown together without a very experienced and knowledgable leader. Personally I’d never allow my teenaged children attend such a prayer group for fear of psychological or real spiritual harm. I want to know what spiritual safeguards did you use with those thousands. I suspect you had no safeguards at all.

Do you do any back checking to learn of deliterious results? Or if they stop attending, they are forgotten?

 

[misericordie]

FrankvT:

I would like to know why at charismatic prayer meetings people pray in tongues and other things happen that are associated with charismatic prayer groups but not at traditional prayer groups. Is not the Holy Spirit present at any true meaning prayer group? Why doesn’t tongues happen at any prayer time to anybody?

The attraction for emotional experiences, or mass hysteria.
Great post. Some charismatic masses focus on dancing, or throwing THEMSELVES on the floor:dancing: :bounce: .

 

[Les_Richardson]

One more question. As a charismatic, if you can answer this question after much reflection, after thinking about your experiences, and by yourself honestly come up with the answer, you will understand a whole lot about group dynamics and auto-suggestion.

The question is this;

Why is “private prayer language” audible (low, normal voice or even loud) to anyone else?

 

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

Why is “private prayer language” audible (low, normal voice or even loud) to anyone else?

Why is humming, or any music for that matter audible to anyone else?

It is a private prayer, in the sense that it is a personal prayer, but it is also either for praise, or petition (usually healing) It is private in the sense that is is not liturgical, but can be prayed out loud for the edification of an individual for whom it is offered or for the group in group praise.

We use our voice in praise–it is personal, but can be done in a group. (The Rosary is private prayer, even when it is done in a group)
from the Catholic Encyclopedia
So in Christian use liturgy meant the public official service of the Church,… In the same sense we distinguish the official services from others by calling them liturgical; those services are liturgical which are contained in any of the official books (see LITURGICAL BOOKS) of a rite. In the Roman Church, for instance, Compline is a liturgical service, the Rosary is not.

 

[RichT]

misericordie:

The attraction for emotional experiences, or mass hysteria.
Great post. Some charismatic masses focus on dancing, or throwing THEMSELVES on the floor:dancing: :bounce: .

Actually, I prefer swinging from the chandeliers! And then there’s the rolling up and down the aisles. Thats always fun.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

RichT:

Actually, I prefer swinging from the chandeliers! And then there’s the rolling up and down the aisles. Thats always fun.

Hi Rich, I thought that activity was reserved for monkeys.

 

[RichT]

Do you know what it is you are saying in the prayer tongue?
Yes and no. Imagine a person so deep into an emotional conversation that at some point their words simply become incomprehensible. They may or may not know what they are saying. I would say that their thoughts are still there, the words are just coming out jumbled. The bottom line is that God knows what you are saying.
From your perspective and experience, you mentioned that some people wanted the gift of tongues badly. Would it be your view that tongues are a common gift, or rare? The reason I ask is that in two programs used by Catholics, LISS and ALPHA, there is a direct encouragement to attempt some sort of language. It is a part of the group dynamic that there is an expectation of gifts, in particular tongues, and the participants are told to try a few words or a word, and develop a “tongue” from there.
Being a fairly new catholic, I am unfamiliar with these programs. I would like to hear more about them. I don’t like to hear that people are encouraged to develop a tongue. I would prefer to hear that people are encouraged to be open to the Holy Spirit, and willing to accept and use whatever gift is bestowed upon you. I would say the gift is fairly rare. I am talking about the gift that Paul talks about, not prayer language. Another note, many more may have the gift, but are afraid to use it, just as many are afraid to hear God’s word.
Would you think that is really a gift from the Holy Spirit or more along the line of “Human Suggestion” that Fr Most talks about as one of the three sources of such manifestations?
Both. Too many people think that tongues is the only sign of being baptised in the Holy Spirit. So some force it, and practice it when they really don’t have the gift. I for example, don’t have the gift of tongues, however, I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit and have other gifts. I also believe that every willing Christian is baptised in the Holy Spirit. It is a question of whether or not they are willing to acknowledge and accept the gifts they are given.

I am interested that there was interpretation accompanying the speaking in tongues, in your former church. And the speakers spoke one at a time, thus in an orderly fashion. That is in direct compliance with St. Paul’s rule as set out for the Corinthian church and I would say, a proper inclusion of the gift of tongues.

Returning to the desire to speak in tongues, did you ever hear anyone discourage that desire as does St. Paul in his admonition to the Corinthians? That, in my mind is a serious problem in the courses I mentioned above. The reverse is true. Tongues are encouraged to the point that people feel pressure to speak in tongues or be left out. That comes from an erroneous theology, the idea that unless you speaks in tongues you haven’t been “baptized” by the Holy Spirit. Obviously, that was not the teaching of your former church.
See above…

 

[RichT]

First, the expectation of tongues is a non-Catholic theology. In the spirit of the age we live in, the self-centered experience oriented society has influenced the thinking and manner of evangelization of the Church. I am concerned that some have been sold the the razzle-dazzle and are Christians as long as they are stimulated regularly. If the Church were to implemen the rules layed down by Paul, would some question their faith? Is it deep enough to be strong and vibrant even if they never spoke in tongues or fell over backward for the rest of their life? Or is that all of Christianity for them? If they have been deceived, who is going to tell them?
The rules laid down by Paul include spiritual gifts, even tongues. That is addressed in 1st Corinthians quite clearly. Regarding being stimulated, some people just naturally need some sort of stimulation to remain interested in anything. As sad as that may sound, it’s true. I guess I could argue that it is better to have them in church, then to have them watching football on Sunday. It’s like this, my parish makes me excited to be a catholic! I can’t wait for Sunday to roll around, and neither can my family. This wasn’t the case at our former parish. We went because it was our abligation as to go. We dont even use the word obligation anymore. We go now because we cant stand not going! I know many will not like hearing this, but it’s true for many. People have different preferences. It’s no different than prefering a NO mass over a TLM.
Second, the entire idea of the CCR as I have heard it explained and proclaimed and have heard in these threads, is a renewal of the entire church. The leaders of the renewal are not interested in a side-bar alternative form of worship. They would like to see, as I would like to see, a broad based spiritual revitalization of the Catholic Church, so that nominal Catholics and so-called cafeteria Catholics are a small minority, and the vast majority of Catholics are orthodox, committed, spiritually deep believers in Jesus Christ, much like they were in the days of the apostles and like the people you meet in these forums.
In my parish we have over 7000 families registered. People drive over an hour to attend my parish. At all of the masses on Sunday, it is standing room only 20 minutes before mass even starts. To me, this is true renewel. We never have a problem getting people to take part in different ministries. We are always ahead financialy at the end of the year. We run a church owned soup kitchen that feeds 400-500 people nightly. As I said in my firts post, mass is celebrated in a reverant manner with certain restraint. I agree with what you say about revitalization in the entire church. I guess I have only seen revitalization taking place in parishes like the one I attend. There needs to always be different pairshes that celebrate the mass a little different so people can choose to attend where they feel the most comfortable. It is for this same reason that the dioceses around the nation are allowing the TLM again. Poeple want the TLM because they prefer it. I wany my charismatic parish because I prefer it.

I agree with the statement below. Tongues and falling will always happen though. I am afraid though, that the CCR is known this way because many non-charismatics choose to label us in this way. I have never heard a charismatic attempt to evangelize someone under the pretense that they will be speaking in tongues and falling over.
But that won’t happen through the CCR if it continues to be identified with tongues and falling as a primary feature of the movement accompanied by theological error, designed to justify the signs and wonders style evangelism.

 

[RichT]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Rich, I thought that activity was reserved for monkeys.

That’s funny. When I take my kids to the zoo, my favorite place is the monkey exhibit! Maybe your on to something!

 

[RichT]

Les Richardson:

One more question. As a charismatic, if you can answer this question after much reflection, after thinking about your experiences, and by yourself honestly come up with the answer, you will understand a whole lot about group dynamics and auto-suggestion.

The question is this;

Why is “private prayer language” audible (low, normal voice or even loud) to anyone else?

Well, it is audible because it is spoken out loud. It’s private because nobody can understand it. I have been involved in prayer meetings where people are using this prayer language. I can hear them, but I am not distracted by it as I am involved in my own form of prayer or worship.

Let me share one more experience. I recently had an appointment for a face to face confession in one of our priest’s offices. After the confession, the priest prayed over me, and at one point prayed in tongues. It was his private conversation with God, but I felt as though I was very much included in that conversation and the words being spoken didn’t matter. It was one of the most comforting experiences I have ever had.

 

[FrankvT]

I honestly can not understand why God needs or wants us to pray in a language we don’t understand. He obviously does not need this language, He knows and understands all. It would make more sense if we understand what we are saying when we pray.