Questions for charismatics

[gnome]

FrankvT:

I would like to know why at charismatic prayer meetings people pray in tongues and other things happen that are associated with charismatic prayer groups but not at traditional prayer groups. Is not the Holy Spirit present at any true meaning prayer group? Why doesn’t tongues happen at any prayer time to anybody?

we do invoke the Holy Spirit during the Rosary, at the end of each
Mystery, right?

 

[FrankvT]

I hope that I have not been uncharitable. I just want to learn and understand. Thank-you

 

[RichT]

FrankvT:

I hope that I have not been uncharitable. I just want to learn and understand. Thank-you

Definately not Frank! I have enjoyed your questions.

 

[gnome]

FrankvT:

I honestly can not understand why God needs or wants us to pray in a language we don’t understand. He obviously does not need this language, He knows and understands all. It would make more sense if we understand what we are saying when we pray.

which makes lots of sense. That’s why He taught us how to pray with the Our Father, and how not to pray like the tax collector who declares all his good deeds, but to pray like the publican who stood from the distance and only repeat simple prayer “have mercy on me”

 

[Mysty101]

Gnome,
Of course there can be an abuse of anything. People are trying to point out the legitimate things, to help spot abuses.

The general rule, which I have stated many time is ask yourself these questions:

Is this group connected with an authentic Catholic Parish or other authentic Catholic organization?

Is the leadership authentic Catholic—preferably a priest?

And we have also said many times, It is not for everyone. Other movements are also not right for everyone. If you don’t like it, don’t go.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Mysty101:

Why is humming, or any music for that matter audible to anyone else?

It is a private prayer, in the sense that it is a personal prayer, but it is also either for praise, or petition (usually healing) It is private in the sense that is is not liturgical, but can be prayed out loud for the edification of an individual for whom it is offered or for the group in group praise.

We use our voice in praise–it is personal, but can be done in a group. (The Rosary is private prayer, even when it is done in a group)
from the Catholic Encyclopedia

Understood Mysty101. However, you have missed my point. If the prayer is in a tongue of some sort, which is what several posters have indicated, then another person cannot be edified by it unless it is interpreted, because it is not intelligible. That other person does not know what you are saying. He/she may make the assumption that you are praising God, but it has been reported by some who understood different languages and walked into a meeting where several were speaking in tongues, they heard one or two persons cursing God. The persons doing it did not know it, and thought they were praising God, but they did not know what they were saying. They certainly didn’t intend to curse God.

If the private prayer language is not intelligible to the person praying, then only God knows what that person is really saying. Is that not risky? The feeling, the intention are no doubt good. Absolutely.
If the private prayer language is not intelligible to anyone else, why would the person praying, pray out loud? The prayer cannot edify the others. They don’t know its meaning so the only thing that they could take from it, assuming they believe it is good, *is that the person praying is a spiritual person. *Didn’t Jesus have a warning about that approach to prayer? Now if that prayer is in a language all can understand, of course it can be uplifting and edifying for the entire group. The Rosary, for example, is prayed in the language of the group.

As to group dynamics and suggestion, if enough are doing the one thing, it is easy for someone to fall into the group pattern, and then believe later that it is real. Certainly it is real. But is it of God? Particularly when nobody knows **what **is being said, only how.

Group dynamics and suggestion are not evil in and of themselves. We see that in every meeting of Christians, in particular, the mass. When we walk in and genuflect, we are personally acknowledging the presence of our Lord, but we are re-enforcing that reverence in the minds of everyone who sees us do it. The music, as you mentioned, is similar. When we all are singing the same song of praise, we re-enforce each other. But how can we re-enforce something in the minds and hearts of others if we and they do not understand it, but only presume that it is good? Why? Because we were taught by someone that it has to be good.

Now, if there were nothing in the Bible or Tradition or Magesterium to guide us, or tell us whether what we are doing is good or not, is of the Holy Spirit or not, we could be excused on the grounds of invincible ignorance. But we have plenty to guide us. I’ll not go round and round that same arguments again and again, other than to say that anyone who’s mind is open, doesn’t have to listen to me or any other poster here. All they need to do is read the warnings of St. Paul, the warnings of St. Theresa of Avila. It is clear. Don’t seek these things out.

 

[RichT]

Les, I can see what you are getting at. In regards to prayer in tongues not edifying another person, see here what I wrote in an earlier post.

Let me share one more experience. I recently had an appointment for a face to face confession in one of our priest’s offices. After the confession, the priest prayed over me, and at one point prayed in tongues. It was his private conversation with God, but I felt as though I was very much included in that conversation and the words being spoken didn’t matter. It was one of the most comforting experiences I have ever had.

Regarding groups, I meet with a men’s group on Wednesday mornings for prayer and worship. During our worship it is not unusual for many of the men to start praying with this prayer language. It is usually so loud in the room that you can’t really hear one particular person praying. I do have faith that these men are praying with good intentions.

 

[Les_Richardson]

RichT:

Well, it is audible because it is spoken out loud. It’s private because nobody can understand it. I have been involved in prayer meetings where people are using this prayer language. I can hear them, but I am not distracted by it as I am involved in my own form of prayer or worship.

Let me share one more experience. I recently had an appointment for a face to face confession in one of our priest’s offices. After the confession, the priest prayed over me, and at one point prayed in tongues. It was his private conversation with God, but I felt as though I was very much included in that conversation and the words being spoken didn’t matter. It was one of the most comforting experiences I have ever had.

You make the point I just made to **Mysty101. **And I’ll presume that the priest had the tongue tested. I hope he did, at least. Because he, as a priest, prayed in tongues, however, adds no re-enforcement to the point you are making.

I’ll tell you a story. When I was a child, and I remember this clearly, before I had learned to read and write, my mother would give me paper and pencil, or even a pen, if I was good. I would sit there and make line after line of writing on the page. It was just useless scratching, but it was neat, in a straight row across and divided into paragraphs. I was **imitating **what I had seen her and my father do. To me it looked good. I wasn’t trying to convey anything, I was merely imitating. Years later, my mother showed me some of the pages (she had actually saved some) and we had a good laugh.
But I thought about this the other day in the context of our discussion here and the very first few lines of the Gospel of St. John. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God… without Him was not anything made that was made.” The Word, the Logos, is the meaning of the entire universe, besides being the only begotten Son of God and incarnated for our salvation. Without the meaning, the Word, nothing was made.

Just like my “writing” on the page, anything at all that we could do is mindless without meaning. When I learned to write I learned that there were symbols that combined to make words that combined to make sentences that conveyed meaning in the speech and language I had learned first. Anything I have ever learned since is based on that same principle. Either there is a meaning or I have not learned it, and it is unintelligible.

Can you really conclude that the Holy Spirit encourages mindlessness? Sounds without meaning? Jesus Christ **is **meaning. Without Him there is no meaning to anything. Without HIm creation comes apart into random pieces without form, void of inteligence, void of meaning.

The very first instance of tongues was Pentecost. Did you notice that the **miracle **was not so much that the apostles spoke in language they had not learned, while that was spectacular, but that the words they spoke had **meaning **for those that heard them. That was the miracle! And that is the entire gist of St. Paul’s admonition to the Corinthians. There must be meaning/intelligibility, or don’t do it.

 

[Les_Richardson]

RichT:

That doesn’t matter. The person certainly knows what is on thier mind. How about this? Suppose you needed to tell someone something extremely important, and you just couldn’t find the right words. What if you could just start talking and it didn’t matter what words came out or for that matter just sounds came out? What if that was all you needed to convey your thoughts and this person understood clearly what you were saying? Would it really matter if you didn’t even understand your own words as long as they got the message?

Not to belabour this, but it is important. That was part of my point about prayer language. It is twice meaningless if not spoken out loud. Think about it. Do you think in speech, or in pictures and concepts and ideas? Translating into speech slows you down because you can think faster than you can speak. (I can think way faster than I can type!) That is why some people stutter. Their mind races ahead of their speech. So when you pray to God silently, is it not from your mind to God? Do you need any speech at all? Isn’t speech intended primarily for another person or persons?

So if the other person can’t understand it, are you then simply speaking to impress them in some way? But if you can’t understand it either, they certainly won’t be impressed with your intelligence. Your spirituality then?

Hey, I’m just asking.

 

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

Understood Mysty101. However, you have missed my point. If the prayer is in a tongue of some sort, which is what several posters have indicated, then another person cannot be edified by it unless it is interpreted, because it is not intelligible. .

You are missing the whole point of a prayer tongue. You and so many others keep babbling on about interpretation.

Regarding 1 Cor 14, which seems to be the favorite refute of tongues.
from the introduction to 1 Cor on the USCCB site

Paul’s first letter to the church of Corinth provides us with a fuller insight into the life of an early Christian community of the first generation than any other book of the New Testament. Through it we can glimpse both the strengths and the weaknesses of this small group in a great city of the ancient world, men and women who had accepted the good news of Christ and were now trying to realize in their lives the implications of their baptism. Footnotes

1 [1-5] 1 Cor 14:1b

returns to the thought of 1 Cor 12:31a and reveals Paul’s primary concern. The series of contrasts in 1 Cor 14:2-5 discloses the problem at Corinth: a disproportionate interest in tongues, with a corresponding failure to appreciate the worth of prophecy. Paul attempts to clarify the relative values of those gifts by indicating the kind of communication achieved in each and the kind of effect each produces.

8 [23-25] Paul projects the possible missionary effect of two hypothetical liturgical experiences, one consisting wholly of tongues, the other entirely of prophecy. Uninstructed (idiotai): the term may simply mean people who do not speak or understand tongues, as in 1 Cor 14:16, where it seems to designate Christians. But coupled with the term “unbelievers” it may be another way of designating those who have not been initiated into the community of faith; some believe it denotes a special class of non-Christians who are close to the community, such as catechumens. Unbelievers (apistoi): he has shifted from the inner-community perspective of 1 Cor 14:22; the term here designates non-Christians (cf 1 Cor 6:6; 7:15; 10:27).

9 [26-33a] Paul concludes with specific directives regarding exercise of the gifts in their assemblies. Verse 26 enunciates the basic criterion in the use of any gift: it must contribute to “building up.”
Paul is speaking to the Chuch in Corinth almost 2000 years ago. How on earth could you use that instruction literally to the US church today?

Also you are combining Speaking in tongues and a prayer tongue which are totally different.

 

[Mysty101]

continued

*1 Cor 14: 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God. *

*The Speaking in tongues is done as a teaching, so therefore interpretation is necessary. Praying in tongues is done either as a form of praise or over someone for healing, and since the person praying is not in a teaching position, the tongue is between himself and God. *
**
I am quite tired of repeating myself. I am at peace with Jesus regarding Praying in tongues— I hope you find as much peace in stiffling this wonderful and supportive form of prayer

 

[RichT]

Les Richardson:

You make the point I just made to **Mysty101. **And I’ll presume that the priest had the tongue tested. I hope he did, at least. Because he, as a priest, prayed in tongues, however, adds no re-enforcement to the point you are making.

Les, the point I was trying to make was simply that it didn’t matter what words were coming out of his mouth. I had faith that his prayer for me was sincere and good.

 

[RichT]

Les Richardson:

Not to belabour this, but it is important. That was part of my point about prayer language. It is twice meaningless if not spoken out loud. Think about it. Do you think in speech, or in pictures and concepts and ideas? Translating into speech slows you down because you can think faster than you can speak. (I can think way faster than I can type!) That is why some people stutter. Their mind races ahead of their speech. So when you pray to God silently, is it not from your mind to God? Do you need any speech at all? Isn’t speech intended primarily for another person or persons?

So if the other person can’t understand it, are you then simply speaking to impress them in some way? But if you can’t understand it either, they certainly won’t be impressed with your intelligence. Your spirituality then?

Hey, I’m just asking.

I think you are confusing the gift of tongues as mentioned in 1st Corinthians chapter 12 with tongues as a prayer language.The fact that a priest prayed in tongues while praying over me illustrates the point that his prayer was a private conversation with God. He was not praying to me, but to God. So, it is not important that I didn’t understand the words he was speaking. Now, he did pray quietly while praying in tongues, but I could still hear him. When I pray in tongues and other people are around, I am not speaking or praying to them. I am praying to God, so it doesn’t really matter to me if they are impressed or not. I am not praying in tongues to impress anyone.

Anyway, the holidays are upon us. I appreciate your questions and the conversation we are having, but I must go home now. I will be thinking about you over the holidays and looking forward to continuing on Monday. Have a great Thanksgiving.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Mysty101:

continued

1 Cor 14: 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God.

*The Speaking in tongues is done as a teaching, so therefore interpretation is necessary. Praying in tongues is done either as a form of praise or over someone for healing, and since the person praying is not in a teaching position, the tongue is between himself and God. *
**
I am quite tired of repeating myself. I am at peace with Jesus regarding Praying in tongues— I hope you find as much peace in stiffling this wonderful and supportive form of prayer

Never be tired knowing in you spirit what you are doing is right. The Joy of the Lord is my strength. God Bless

 

[Les_Richardson]

RichT:

Thank you for your kind words. They are refreshing compared to some of the more un-charitable comments we charismatics receive on this forum. God Bless.

Thanks. I’ll tell you what, if anyone feels that anyone is being uncharitable to anyone else, don’t respond to them, send me a nasty response. Address it to me. After all, I started this thread, and it is difficult to probe this area without being at least a little provocative.

So beat up on me. I can take it. Hey, and if you have kind comments like yours RichT, I’ll take them too.:tiphat:

 

[Les_Richardson]

Mysty101:

continued

1 Cor 14: 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God.

*The Speaking in tongues is done as a teaching, so therefore interpretation is necessary. Praying in tongues is done either as a form of praise or over someone for healing, and since the person praying is not in a teaching position, the tongue is between himself and God. *
**
I am quite tired of repeating myself. I am at peace with Jesus regarding Praying in tongues— I hope you find as much peace in stiffling this wonderful and supportive form of prayer

If you are peace, then you aren’t stifled are you? The above quote says exactly what I have been saying Mysty101,
*But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God. *
So you and I agree. If it is truly between you and God, it is unknown to me and none of my business. Right?

But if you pray out loud, you include me. That is what I am saying. We are not islands unto ourselves.

And I am sure you don’t mean that comment about the Corinthian Church when you review it.
First, everything in the mass is a re-presentation of events that took place before St. Paul wrote that letter, ie. 2000 yrs ago. Our entire Faith is based on those events. Not literally?
Secondly, it is not only the instruction, but the reason behind it, as I have endeavoured to show, perhaps ineptly, and for that I apologize.

In any event, you are weary of the discussion. Have a Happy Thanksgiving, and I have appreciated your posts.

You too, RichT, have a pleasant holiday.

 

[Exporter]

Les, you story about you “writing” as a small child who didnt know how to write was great. The lesson was great. I have saved in in Word. Thanks.

Misty, in your opinion do you think there is a heirchy of effectiveness in prayer. I mean are some kinds of prayer are more effective than others? If there are more effective prayers or methods of prayer - what are they? Why do you think that?

 

[kragar]

I just tried to read all the posts and found them entertaining,perplexing, disconcerting, and encouraging; the book to read on the beginnings of the CCR in the church is “As by a New Pentacost” by Patti Gallagher Mansfield. All I can say is, you will know them by their fruits and the fruit of the renewal includes a very involved,deeply spiritual, committed laity along with priests. Many priests have been born from the renewal,including 2 from my high school prayer group from 1970.Catholic charismatics can claim the likes of Fr.Groeschel, Fr. Contelamessa-Preacher to the Papal household-(I dare you read any of his writings and tell me he is theologically out of line), Fr. Kevin Scallon, Sr.Briege Mckenna(both of whom do constant renewal work with priests world-wide), and countless more.Catholic evangelist Ralph Martin,Peter Herbeck, the late Jim Cavnar,Bert Ghezzi,Patti Mansfield,Sr.Ann Shields-all of Renewal Ministries, Fr.Michael Scanlon and the renewal fo Franciscan University-the fruits are very visible.(Icould go on for pages and pages)These are highly educated Catholics-not kooks-they all pray in tongues
the renewal came along at a time when the Church needed a spark of life.The renewal helped people see God as personally in love with them and openned the possibility of a personal relationship with the living God,rather than that image of the stern aloof Father in the clouds. The renewal was the first place I heard as a 14 yr.old girl-“Jesus Loves You” that was 1969.prior to that. the Church was austere and rigid, and oppresive; Speaking in tongues is a gift that you pray for and receive. I have been praying in tongues for 34 yrs. - in the past 5-6 yrs i can hear the translation in my head as I pray in tongues.I pray in tongues when i have no words of my own, i pray in tongues when i want to pray for someone and don’t know exactly what they need. It is freeing and I can pray without having to concentrate and I trust the Holy Spirit to guide my prayer since it is His prayer. Discernment is important; God’s gifts do not cause anxiety.I have never been anxious about praying in tongues since I was 14.Please,read the literature written by Charismatics before you get all concerned.
Renewal Ministries in Ann Arbor,MI is a resource as well as the diocesan Renewal office in your Diocese.
Catholic Charismatic Renewal of New Orleans or Detroit can help,too.
Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to someone who can talk to you about your concerns about the Renewal.
thanks for your time and **HAPPY,BLESSED THANKSGIVING **

 

[misericordie]

FrankvT:

But the person speaking in tongues doesn’t understand it either!!

YOU HAVE SAID IT BEST HERE. Tongues most of the time is a product of mass hysteria: the brain is a powerful tool.:whacky:

 

[misericordie]

SPOKENWORD:

Frank ,To you it doesnt make any sense,but it does to God.Maybe ,my answer about satan not understanding it makes sense. Maybe this prayer uttered is invisable to the enemy so that he will not attack it.

this is probably the FUNNIEST thing I have ever heard. So God needs to communicate with a person via a NON existing language. SOMEONE, CALL AN EXORCIST FAST!!!:crying: