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FrankvT
Guest
I went to a healing mass for the first time last week. You have a very normal mass first then after the dismissal, the healing part starts. Again, the healing service is not during the mass.
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Les_Richardson
Guest
1 Maria:
I am on the way to work, so a short answer for the moment. No. I am not part of the CCR. But am I ever glad you posted the question. You have highlighted something I have been trying to get at here throughout. (perhaps ineptly) I will expand on this tonight. Thank you for the question.
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Mysty101
Guest
Thanks, for the (name removed by moderator)ut. Would you like to tell us about it?
Try the Charismatic sharing thread
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=343415#post343415
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1_Maria
Guest
Les Richardson:
Maria
You are quite welcome. I’m looking forward to your comments.
Maria
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Les_Richardson
Guest
Maria,
Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner. A couple of 13 hr days, 9 hrs between them and a snow storm. Kinda of eats into computer time.
I should ask you why you asked whether I am affiliated with the CCR, but I’m going to take a flyer and respond to what I think was the reason for your question. You can correct me if I’m wrong.
As it is, those from the CCR seem to be almost the only Catholics talking about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, at least explicitly in those terms, and the work of the Holy Spirit, the in-filling of the Holy Spirit (they tend to call it Baptism of the Spirit). There are others, but I think if you were to ask any Catholic familiar with those terms, they would think immediately of the CCR. Having said that, there are programs on EWTN that emphasize the personal relationship with Jesus, without any apparent connection or reference to charismatics.
Let’s take an example of a cradle Catholic called X. X is baptized, confirmed all in due course, catechized at school and as he gets older he is seen less and less at mass, except for marriage, Christmas and Easter. He has a sense that if he strays too far his soul is in jeopardy, but it doesn’t interfere too much with his life, his career, etc. Generally he is a good person. The rules grate on him somewhat and he is one of those surveyed Catholics who says he doesn’t believe the Church’s teaching on contraception and only partly on abortion. He fits right into that description of the guilt ridden Catholic from Krager, and his response to that is to disbelieve and rebel against some teachings. At some point in his life he feels an emptiness, but circumstances find him in contact with someone from the CCR. The excitement of Catholics about their faith interests him and he soon hears that he needs a personal relationship with Jesus, like he’s heard Protestant preachers talk about. At some point he commits himself and is told he needs the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, through training(LISS) and the induction that happens there he eventually is speaking in tongues and has committed his life to Jesus Christ. Now, in his mind, because of his own experience, there is no doubt that to become a committed Catholic, a follower of Jesus, Baptism in the Spirit and speaking in tongues are a requisite part. How could he know or think otherwise? Who can blame him? You could never move him from that conviction. Furthermore, to grow spiritually, he naturally assumes that the same pattern is repeated and he enthusiastically attends charismatic prayer meetings for that reason. Someone like me comes along and asks some theological questions about the whole thing and his reaction is very strong. I understand that. (More)
Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner. A couple of 13 hr days, 9 hrs between them and a snow storm. Kinda of eats into computer time.
I should ask you why you asked whether I am affiliated with the CCR, but I’m going to take a flyer and respond to what I think was the reason for your question. You can correct me if I’m wrong.
As it is, those from the CCR seem to be almost the only Catholics talking about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, at least explicitly in those terms, and the work of the Holy Spirit, the in-filling of the Holy Spirit (they tend to call it Baptism of the Spirit). There are others, but I think if you were to ask any Catholic familiar with those terms, they would think immediately of the CCR. Having said that, there are programs on EWTN that emphasize the personal relationship with Jesus, without any apparent connection or reference to charismatics.
Let’s take an example of a cradle Catholic called X. X is baptized, confirmed all in due course, catechized at school and as he gets older he is seen less and less at mass, except for marriage, Christmas and Easter. He has a sense that if he strays too far his soul is in jeopardy, but it doesn’t interfere too much with his life, his career, etc. Generally he is a good person. The rules grate on him somewhat and he is one of those surveyed Catholics who says he doesn’t believe the Church’s teaching on contraception and only partly on abortion. He fits right into that description of the guilt ridden Catholic from Krager, and his response to that is to disbelieve and rebel against some teachings. At some point in his life he feels an emptiness, but circumstances find him in contact with someone from the CCR. The excitement of Catholics about their faith interests him and he soon hears that he needs a personal relationship with Jesus, like he’s heard Protestant preachers talk about. At some point he commits himself and is told he needs the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, through training(LISS) and the induction that happens there he eventually is speaking in tongues and has committed his life to Jesus Christ. Now, in his mind, because of his own experience, there is no doubt that to become a committed Catholic, a follower of Jesus, Baptism in the Spirit and speaking in tongues are a requisite part. How could he know or think otherwise? Who can blame him? You could never move him from that conviction. Furthermore, to grow spiritually, he naturally assumes that the same pattern is repeated and he enthusiastically attends charismatic prayer meetings for that reason. Someone like me comes along and asks some theological questions about the whole thing and his reaction is very strong. I understand that. (More)
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Les_Richardson
Guest
Let’s look at Catholic Y. Same upbringing as X. But for some reason he takes more of an interest in his faith. He attends mass regularly, he becomes involved in the Church in various ways, ie. committees, charity work, etc. His faith deepens over time. His understanding grows over time, perhaps because of good homilies from his priest. The teachings of the Church he takes very seriously, marrying a woman that thinks the same way. They raise a large family and become deeply bound into the Church, praying the rosary, regular confession, in short taking advantage of all the spiritual supports and sacraments that the fullness of the Catholic faith has to offer. But nowhere along the way has he ever really dealt with that expression “personal relationship with Jesus.”
My first question is this. Does Y have a personal relationship with Jesus? He prays at home privately, with his family, teaching his children, in the church for group rosary prayer, in the liturgy at mass every week. He has a peace in his life and a sense of purpose and belonging that transcends the day to day ups and downs, that if you asked him he would attribute to his faith. I would say he does have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, even though he may never have thought of it that way.
What is common to X and Y? What do we really mean by a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and how is that connected to the Holy Spirit?
The answer starts in our understanding of salvation.
So let’s look at Z to get a picture of that. Z is a convert. In his case he was a pagan who at a low point in his life, sought answers, sought meaning and was evangelized by a caring priest who presented him with the gospel in simple terms. He repented of his sin and believed in Jesus Christ as the only way to a restored relationship with God, and the only way enter the Kingdom. He is catechized by the priest and is baptized and then confirmed by the Bishop. He is eager to continue learning, reading the Bible and the Catechism, praying regularly and receiving Holy Communion. He becomes a devoted Christian and it transforms his life, so much so that everyone sees it. In fact, this gives him opportunities to evangelize others. It is obvious to all that he is growing spiritually. And he has had no contact with the CCR.
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My first question is this. Does Y have a personal relationship with Jesus? He prays at home privately, with his family, teaching his children, in the church for group rosary prayer, in the liturgy at mass every week. He has a peace in his life and a sense of purpose and belonging that transcends the day to day ups and downs, that if you asked him he would attribute to his faith. I would say he does have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, even though he may never have thought of it that way.
What is common to X and Y? What do we really mean by a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and how is that connected to the Holy Spirit?
The answer starts in our understanding of salvation.
So let’s look at Z to get a picture of that. Z is a convert. In his case he was a pagan who at a low point in his life, sought answers, sought meaning and was evangelized by a caring priest who presented him with the gospel in simple terms. He repented of his sin and believed in Jesus Christ as the only way to a restored relationship with God, and the only way enter the Kingdom. He is catechized by the priest and is baptized and then confirmed by the Bishop. He is eager to continue learning, reading the Bible and the Catechism, praying regularly and receiving Holy Communion. He becomes a devoted Christian and it transforms his life, so much so that everyone sees it. In fact, this gives him opportunities to evangelize others. It is obvious to all that he is growing spiritually. And he has had no contact with the CCR.
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Les_Richardson
Guest
What has actually happened in Z’s life? What we know from the Council of Trent and Vatican II is that when Z gave the assent of faith, that is to say believed in Jesus Christ, he did that on a personal basis of his own free will, and God gave him the grace to truly believe, to place his trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. The sacrament of Baptism removed his original sin and the sins of commission in his life to that point by the action of the Holy Spirit, and the Bishop, by the use of oils of anointing and the laying on of hands conferred on him the Holy Spirit in Confirmation to strengthen him for his life as a Christian. (Note: the Bishop, as an apostolic successor is the only one with the power and authority to confer the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands, unless he specifically designates a priest in a special circumstance, but he still must bless the oils used by the priest)
This where Fr Cantalamessa’s description of the “tied” sacraments, and the out-of-synchronization of certain Catholics becomes more clear. In Z’s case, he gave the assent of faith, the “yes” to Jesus Christ, at or about the same time as he received the Sacraments of Initiation, Baptism and Confirmation, and therefore the *Opere Operato *was in synchronization. So what does that mean? It means simply that the Holy Spirit was able to work in Z’s life directly and immediately, because Z was willing to be filled with the Holy Spirit. How so? He was giving up his own life, his own will, to the will of Jesus Christ. His focus was on Jesus and Jesus’ response to Z was through the Holy Spirit. Z was loving Jesus, and the Holy Spirit worked in his life to the measure of that love, and also helped to nurture that love and make it grow stronger.
Why do I say Z was loving Jesus? Let’s look at love for a moment. True love we know is an act of the will, not simply an emotional response. It is a state of “doing” more than a state of “being.” What did Jesus say about love? “No greater love has a man than that he give up his life for his friends.” Love is self-sacrifice for the sake of the beloved. And the ultimate sacrifice, like Jesus Christ himself for us, and the martyrs for His sake, is the sacrifice of one’s life.* “I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship” (Rom 12:1). Christian worship, the work of Christ the Priest, with which man becomes associated, displays a very special character which radically distinguishes it from every other form of worship. It can never be reduced to pure ritual or pious practice. Adoration of God, in fact, which culminates in the celebration of the sacraments, is realized in its fullness only in the offering of one’s own life as a sacrifice pleasing to the Father. (Bishop Angelo Scola,Bishop emeritus of Grosseto, Italy Rector of the Pontifical Lateran University, Rome)*
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This where Fr Cantalamessa’s description of the “tied” sacraments, and the out-of-synchronization of certain Catholics becomes more clear. In Z’s case, he gave the assent of faith, the “yes” to Jesus Christ, at or about the same time as he received the Sacraments of Initiation, Baptism and Confirmation, and therefore the *Opere Operato *was in synchronization. So what does that mean? It means simply that the Holy Spirit was able to work in Z’s life directly and immediately, because Z was willing to be filled with the Holy Spirit. How so? He was giving up his own life, his own will, to the will of Jesus Christ. His focus was on Jesus and Jesus’ response to Z was through the Holy Spirit. Z was loving Jesus, and the Holy Spirit worked in his life to the measure of that love, and also helped to nurture that love and make it grow stronger.
Why do I say Z was loving Jesus? Let’s look at love for a moment. True love we know is an act of the will, not simply an emotional response. It is a state of “doing” more than a state of “being.” What did Jesus say about love? “No greater love has a man than that he give up his life for his friends.” Love is self-sacrifice for the sake of the beloved. And the ultimate sacrifice, like Jesus Christ himself for us, and the martyrs for His sake, is the sacrifice of one’s life.* “I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship” (Rom 12:1). Christian worship, the work of Christ the Priest, with which man becomes associated, displays a very special character which radically distinguishes it from every other form of worship. It can never be reduced to pure ritual or pious practice. Adoration of God, in fact, which culminates in the celebration of the sacraments, is realized in its fullness only in the offering of one’s own life as a sacrifice pleasing to the Father. (Bishop Angelo Scola,Bishop emeritus of Grosseto, Italy Rector of the Pontifical Lateran University, Rome)*
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Les_Richardson
Guest
That is what occurs in the heart of a Christian. The act of giving up oneself to Jesus Christ is love. To the extent that we give up more and more of ourselves to Jesus Christ, that is, love Him more, the more that we are telling the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent to help us, that we are willing to be filled and guided by the Holy Spirit. That is actually how the in-filling of the Holy Spirit occurs.
If we understand that sanctification is an extension or continuation of justification. Put in other words, our spirituality, our holiness is accomplished in the same way as we are saved. The distinction between the two is really more of a protestant way of thinking because of a “once-saved always-saved” theology coming from Luther’s “faith alone” theology. The tendency in the mind is to focus on an event, as with the evangelicals, ie. a “born-again” experience. While we may have such an experience at one or more times in our lives, whereby we make a quantum leap at one time, so to speak, in our commitment to Jesus Christ, it can also occur gradually, so that we may not be able to pin down any particular time when we were “saved” (protestant terminology) or even a particular time when we were “baptized in the Spirit”. Yet we may, in fact, be walking in close communion with God, committed to Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit working in our lives. To me, this is a Catholic understanding. We recognize that we have the potential to relapse into sinful ways, even to the point of mortal sin and loss of our salvation. As they say in business, if you are not going forward you are going backward. Likewise, there is no static spirituality. The CCC speaks of constant conversion. Another way of saying that is a constant re-committing of our lives to Jesus Christ, just the way Z, the convert, did initially. Re-committing is our act of loving Jesus.
We read in Matthew’s Gospel Jesus’response to the greatest commandment question.
" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. 'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." This is what we are doing when we give over our will, our possessions, our family, our hopes, our dreams, everything daily to Jesus Christ. It is a very Catholic thing to do, just as we re-present the sacrifice in the Eucharist over and over again. We are approximating that commandment to love God with our whole hearts, souls and minds. It is pleasing to God and is what we were created for in the beginning. We are less than perfect at it, and can only do it with the help of the Holy Spirit, but it is in the act of the will, the willingness, the “yes” to God through Jesus that the Holy Spirit can act in us. The measure of the Holy Spirit’s work in us, His in-filling of our lives, is our love for Jesus Christ.
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If we understand that sanctification is an extension or continuation of justification. Put in other words, our spirituality, our holiness is accomplished in the same way as we are saved. The distinction between the two is really more of a protestant way of thinking because of a “once-saved always-saved” theology coming from Luther’s “faith alone” theology. The tendency in the mind is to focus on an event, as with the evangelicals, ie. a “born-again” experience. While we may have such an experience at one or more times in our lives, whereby we make a quantum leap at one time, so to speak, in our commitment to Jesus Christ, it can also occur gradually, so that we may not be able to pin down any particular time when we were “saved” (protestant terminology) or even a particular time when we were “baptized in the Spirit”. Yet we may, in fact, be walking in close communion with God, committed to Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit working in our lives. To me, this is a Catholic understanding. We recognize that we have the potential to relapse into sinful ways, even to the point of mortal sin and loss of our salvation. As they say in business, if you are not going forward you are going backward. Likewise, there is no static spirituality. The CCC speaks of constant conversion. Another way of saying that is a constant re-committing of our lives to Jesus Christ, just the way Z, the convert, did initially. Re-committing is our act of loving Jesus.
We read in Matthew’s Gospel Jesus’response to the greatest commandment question.
" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 'This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. 'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." This is what we are doing when we give over our will, our possessions, our family, our hopes, our dreams, everything daily to Jesus Christ. It is a very Catholic thing to do, just as we re-present the sacrifice in the Eucharist over and over again. We are approximating that commandment to love God with our whole hearts, souls and minds. It is pleasing to God and is what we were created for in the beginning. We are less than perfect at it, and can only do it with the help of the Holy Spirit, but it is in the act of the will, the willingness, the “yes” to God through Jesus that the Holy Spirit can act in us. The measure of the Holy Spirit’s work in us, His in-filling of our lives, is our love for Jesus Christ.
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Les_Richardson
Guest
The question remains, was X in a state of grace before he met the CCR and was baptized in the Spirit? We would probably say it was unlikely, although we know that is God’s judgement to make. Our mistake would be to focus on the event in his life as **the only **possible way that X could be filled with the Holy Spirit. Connected with that is to presume that the “sign” of the filling of the Holy Spirit must be tongues, speaking or praying, because X had done neither prior to his experience. When we focus on the event and the sign, we can get in a hurry and decide not to wait for the Holy Spirit to work “as He wills” but create the “sign” to prove the event. Hence, teaching tongues, which I have spoken against here many times.
What we have done in this case then, is show a remarkable lack of faith in the Third Person of the Trinity, not leaving it to Him to give gifts as He wills, but generating that “gift” by induction of the group. We have also, by creating the “sign” of the event, obscured knowledge of a real event, because we have pre-determined it. So how then do we know what has happened, if anything? By the same method we would otherwise, by the fruits of the Holy Spirit. In the meantime we have taken away any real meaning of the sign, and we are back to where we would be without any manifestation or sign. This is particularly true in this particular gift of the Holy Spirit because the manifestation of tongues is for the express purpose of being a sign, an indicator of the working of the Holy Spirit, and if it is manufactured, it obviates its own purpose. Further, it misleads the person we are trying to help in their spiritual life, because deep inside they will know at some point whether their own tongues are a supernatural miracle or a mere human phenomenon. If the latter that casts doubt in their mind. It also obscures what underlies the change, the reason the Holy Spirit is able to work in their life or not, and that is personal submission to the Lord Jesus Christ and our love for Him.
It is the genius of our God that he gave us not a philosophy, a metaphysic, but the **person **of His Son Jesus. As Fr Corapi is fond of saying (paraphrase) “ we don’t believe in a *something, *we believe in a *somebody.” *We can love Jesus the man we have eye-witness testimony to verify, and internal proof of the action of His Holy Spirit. God gave Jesus all the power and authority. Just his very name is powerful, so powerful in fact that it can perform miracles even for those who do not love Him. Jesus said, “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven,but he who does the will of my Fatherin heaven. Manywill say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then will I declare to them, I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness”. That is amazing when you think about it, but chilling as well.
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What we have done in this case then, is show a remarkable lack of faith in the Third Person of the Trinity, not leaving it to Him to give gifts as He wills, but generating that “gift” by induction of the group. We have also, by creating the “sign” of the event, obscured knowledge of a real event, because we have pre-determined it. So how then do we know what has happened, if anything? By the same method we would otherwise, by the fruits of the Holy Spirit. In the meantime we have taken away any real meaning of the sign, and we are back to where we would be without any manifestation or sign. This is particularly true in this particular gift of the Holy Spirit because the manifestation of tongues is for the express purpose of being a sign, an indicator of the working of the Holy Spirit, and if it is manufactured, it obviates its own purpose. Further, it misleads the person we are trying to help in their spiritual life, because deep inside they will know at some point whether their own tongues are a supernatural miracle or a mere human phenomenon. If the latter that casts doubt in their mind. It also obscures what underlies the change, the reason the Holy Spirit is able to work in their life or not, and that is personal submission to the Lord Jesus Christ and our love for Him.
It is the genius of our God that he gave us not a philosophy, a metaphysic, but the **person **of His Son Jesus. As Fr Corapi is fond of saying (paraphrase) “ we don’t believe in a *something, *we believe in a *somebody.” *We can love Jesus the man we have eye-witness testimony to verify, and internal proof of the action of His Holy Spirit. God gave Jesus all the power and authority. Just his very name is powerful, so powerful in fact that it can perform miracles even for those who do not love Him. Jesus said, “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven,but he who does the will of my Fatherin heaven. Manywill say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then will I declare to them, I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness”. That is amazing when you think about it, but chilling as well.
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Les_Richardson
Guest
The whole world is searching for God, in the stars, in the universe, in the earth, in esoteric philosophies, in consciousness, in aliens, in science, in training the mind, in emptying the mind. They are all straining to catch a glimpse of Him, an experience of Him and yet he walked the earth with us. That is why we need to be Christo-centric.
And using the name Jesus, focusing on Him, is the source of the power over the forces of darkness and deception. Routinely in prayer, as in the Lord’s Prayer, we ask the Father, in the name of the Son, and receive our answer through the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, I am the way, and He meant it.
Therefore, can we be filled with the Holy Spirit? Absolutely, by loving Jesus. Can we have a deepening of our spiritual lives? Absolutely, by loving Jesus. Can we experience all of this without the benefit of speaking in tongues or any other miraculous sign? Absolutely, by loving Jesus. I believe that if we were to preach and teach this truth in the context of evangelization and renewal within the Church, we would find less and less in the way of tongues, if we leave it up to the Holy Spirit to give that or any other gift. We would also notice a broader base of renewal.
And using the name Jesus, focusing on Him, is the source of the power over the forces of darkness and deception. Routinely in prayer, as in the Lord’s Prayer, we ask the Father, in the name of the Son, and receive our answer through the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, I am the way, and He meant it.
Therefore, can we be filled with the Holy Spirit? Absolutely, by loving Jesus. Can we have a deepening of our spiritual lives? Absolutely, by loving Jesus. Can we experience all of this without the benefit of speaking in tongues or any other miraculous sign? Absolutely, by loving Jesus. I believe that if we were to preach and teach this truth in the context of evangelization and renewal within the Church, we would find less and less in the way of tongues, if we leave it up to the Holy Spirit to give that or any other gift. We would also notice a broader base of renewal.
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Les_Richardson
Guest
Hey Makerteacher, how’s that for long-winded?
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1_Maria
Guest
Les Richardson:
I would have had many questions for you that I have never before had an opportunity to ask.
Btw, I do have a particular question for you in regards to your previous posts, but right now we have guests so it will have to wait.
Maria
Les, In a sense I may have been hoping you were a member of the CCR because you seem to be so in tune with how the Pope sees this movement and it’s role in the universal Church.
I would have had many questions for you that I have never before had an opportunity to ask.
Btw, I do have a particular question for you in regards to your previous posts, but right now we have guests so it will have to wait.
Maria
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Les_Richardson
Guest
That was the condensed version. I had promised a look at another approach to spirituality. There is so much more to it but those are the essentials.
I look forward to your questions.
I look forward to your questions.
- Status