Questions for charismatics

[Mysty101]

Les Richardson:

Are good or bad experiences the only criteria for judgement/discernment on these issues? If not, what else?

I get a sense that we are in very different places on this issue. I guess it is because of our experience.

I don’t think I can tell you why I am passionate for, any more than you can explain to me why you are so passionate against, other than our experiences. If a person is not a strong Catholic, they will not be able to discern with any authenticity.

But criteria? I keep saying leader ship and connection with an authentic Catholic authority. Is mainstream Catholic authenticity emphasized? --Mass, Sacraments, obedience to legitimate Church authority, invoolvement in the Parish? Are meetings or events in a Church, Parish or other Catholic organization building under Church authority?

If you do not regularly attend Mass, all these questions are inconsequential. I think many people like to interpret things in their own way. They think if they go to a prayer meeting, it is as good as Mass, but this can also be said of more traditional Catholics. A child said to me that she missed Mass because she went to a Christening. She said–well I did go to Church–I don’t think she thought of that on her own. There are Faithful and Unfaithful Catholics in every aspect of Catholicism—not just Charismatics.

 

[1_Maria]

Les Richardson:

Are good or bad experiences the only criteria for judgement/discernment on these issues? If not, what else?

Advice from the Pope is a biggie.

Check out this quote from the Holy Father’s message to the Charismatic communities:

“Love for the Church and submission to her Magisterium,in a process of maturing in theChurch supported by a solid permanent formation are relevant signs of your intention to avoid the risk of favouring, unwittingly, a purely emotional experience of the divine, an excessive pursuit of the “extraordinary” and a private withdrawal that may shrink from apostolic outreach.”

Maria

 

[Makerteacher]

Makerteacher,
Is it possible that I detected the idea that Catholics who go into “something” ( I didn’t want to call it a trance) and go into convultions, babble aloud will always be in some back room: never to be advertised as “Real” Catholics?

Are you aware of precautions to be taken with mentally ill people? With medication you wouldn’t notice that illness.

Hi Exporter.

I am not honestly quite clear on what you are asking me here. Can you clarify for me? It appears to me that you are saying that perhaps I believe that anyone who has a mental problem cannot be a “real” Catholic. I assure you that is not my position whatsoever. But I also think I might be misunderstanding you. I do not want to respond to a misunderstood question and further muddy the waters of discourse. Thanks.

 

[Makerteacher]

Les Richardson:

peace.mb.ca/08.Doors_to_Christ/xneil08.htm

isidor.se/ccreurope/documents/ccr.htm

ccr.org.au/spirituality.html

The highlight of that event for me, the miracle to rejoice in, would be in the verse 41 of Chapter 2 of Acts “Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day.” I think, from everything I have seen and read that the charismatics’ highlight or focus would be how it happened, or at the very least would be given as much attention as the result. Correct me if I’m wrong on that, but it’s what I see.

Les, I am enjoying our discussion, and I appreciate your questions. I am not sure you are right OR wrong, honestly, about how *most * Charismatics might see the story of Pentecost. I would agree with you that the marvel was that so many were brought into the Faith.

I followed the links you provided. The first one was my favorite, for it’s reasoned approach and balanced presentation. And yes, there was a break early in the Renewal between those who INSISTED that Charismtics had to live in Covenant Communities, and those who did not agree. For the most part, that breach has been healed. Our Community, which is a covenant one, recognizes that not everyone is called to this lifestyle, and that you can be deeply Catholic without being Charismatic, and deeply Charismatic without being in a covenanted community life.
And yes, there have been a few of those Covenant communities who went too far in the “headship” idea. I have heard rumors of a community whose leaders told people what furniture they could buy, which school carpools they would be driving (without any (name removed by moderator)ut from said drivers), and so forth. Our community does not do those sorts of things AT ALL.

That said, you mention the ecumenicism of the Renewal. Many of our Communities and smaller prayer groups are indeed ecumencial in nature, and in many cases, are leading the movement of TRUE ecumenism in the Faith. That does NOT translate to the “lowest common spiritual denominator”, as you mentioned in another post.

Continued next post…

 

[Makerteacher]

… continued from above…

We pray every day for the reunification of ALL Christians. We meet regularly with the pastors of other denominations (whose who are willing to talk to us scary Catholics, that is) and we TALK. Just to connect and help each other understand that, though different, we are of one family, the family of Jesus Christ. We recently invited the pastors and prayer leaders of a local evangelical church to Eucharistic Adoration. They came! We talked to them beforehand about what we would be doing, and what it meant theologically, and they asked a lot of questions afterwards. It was great.

One of the leaders of the Charismatic Movement, Matteo Calisi, has been having outstanding fruit in South America, where Protestant and Catholic leaders are finally meeting to talk and pray together, and to work towards the reunification of Christians under ONE FAITH, the True Faith.

One of the things I find very interesting about doing this sort of ecumenical work is the resistance we get from other Catholics, who think we are trying to water down the Faith, or that we will somehow be “contaminated” by spending time with Protestants. (BTW, our Protestant friends assure us that they face similar condemnation from other Protestants for spending time with “cult members”, i.e., Catholics) My attitude is that these brothers and sisters of Christianity will NEVER come Home until they understand what home IS, and how will they ever do that if we all refuse to talk to each other for fear of “contamination?”

Jesus ate with tax collectors and prostitutes. He hung out with the fringe elements in order to love them and save them. I am NOT suggesting that Protestants are prostitutes and tax collectors, but rather that who we hang out with may be seen as our MINISTRY rather than our FORMATION. Does that make sense?

I hope I have addressed your question. If not, please say so!

 

[Les_Richardson]

Makerteacher:

We pray every day for the reunification of ALL Christians. We meet regularly with the pastors of other denominations (whose who are willing to talk to us scary Catholics, that is) and we TALK. Just to connect and help each other understand that, though different, we are of one family, the family of Jesus Christ. We recently invited the pastors and prayer leaders of a local evangelical church to Eucharistic Adoration. They came! We talked to them beforehand about what we would be doing, and what it meant theologically, and they asked a lot of questions afterwards. It was great.

One of the leaders of the Charismatic Movement, Matteo Calisi, has been having outstanding fruit in South America, where Protestant and Catholic leaders are finally meeting to talk and pray together, and to work towards the reunification of Christians under ONE FAITH, the True Faith.

One of the things I find very interesting about doing this sort of ecumenical work is the resistance we get from other Catholics, who think we are trying to water down the Faith, or that we will somehow be “contaminated” by spending time with Protestants. (BTW, our Protestant friends assure us that they face similar condemnation from other Protestants for spending time with “cult members”, i.e., Catholics) My attitude is that these brothers and sisters of Christianity will NEVER come Home until they understand what home IS, and how will they ever do that if we all refuse to talk to each other for fear of “contamination?”

Jesus ate with tax collectors and prostitutes. He hung out with the fringe elements in order to love them and save them. I am NOT suggesting that Protestants are prostitutes and tax collectors, but rather that who we hang out with may be seen as our MINISTRY rather than our FORMATION. Does that make sense?

I hope I have addressed your question. If not, please say so!

I agree with you, and I think I made the point in another post, that we cannot convert them if we are not talking to them. Absolutely. I have read Unitatis Redintegratio over many times. In that document we are told there is a fine line to walk. My entire family is Protestant so this issue is very personal to me. (They aren’t prostitutes and tax collectors either ) Face to face and facing the issues that divide us in a charitable way, is not what I was speaking of. Just as the term “charismatic” has many meanings, so too does ecumenism. I was referring to a different form of it, the form that we see in ALPHA. Ironically, one of the best critiques I have read of the program came from a raving Calvinist. Once you get past that (about 85% Calvinist-specific criticisms) and the anti-Catholic invective, drawing from my Protestant education I understand his criticisms very well, and their commonality to our faith. The connection to the subject of this thread? (more)

 

[Les_Richardson]

Every description I’ve read, backed by personal testimony from a person I trust to be honest with me, the program is through most of the first part simply a generic, non-denominational introduction to Christianity. It only talks of two sacraments, Baptism and Communion, and not as sacraments, but it does not close the door to Catholic theology in that area, only leaves much to be desired. The areas of sin and our need of redemption are pretty generic, hardly fire and brimstone. However, because it is an **Introduction **we can expect to have to go over those areas again in depth, as someone prepares for Baptism as a catechumen.
But then we get to the final weekend retreat. Bear in mind these are people not yet committed for the most part, having gone through an intro course in the process-evangelism style. The course itself spends a lot of time on the spirit and the gifts of the spirit before the weekend and then in and around the final breaking of bread and wine “communion” offered, the people are encouraged to speak in tongues, taught techniques, told to make the attempt, and so forth.
What does that say to you? This program is the product of Holy Trinity Brompton(England) Anglican church, specifically Nicky Gumbel. His associations and pedigree take us back to the extremes in Pentecostalism that manifested itself in the Toronto Blessing and the Laughing Revival. This is a “charismaticism” that belittles the Holy Spirit, discerns nothing, and was basically a spiritual/psychological free-for-all until wiser heads tuned it down somewhat because it was so unpallateable to the mainstream. There are isolated pockets of it even yet. The ALPHA program is more of a well dressed cousin. This “charismaticism” is taught as a cross the board feature of a Christian life-style, way out of order, unlike the tongues of the Bible, totally disturbing in its attempt to sell signs and wonders to yuppies for the most part. As if the gospel of Jesus Christ was somehow equivalent in importance to every other offering at some religious/spiritual world’s fair and we must jazz up the message to compete. Are the converts that come from this program converted to a Christian charismatic lifestyle or to Christ? What happens when God allows some real suffering in their life? If you drum up some tongues do you really have the change of heart necessary for the real in filling of the Holy Spirit?
This Protestant program (it gets results!) is being allowed into the Catholic Church by Bishops looking at dwindling numbers and aging parishioners. I don’t think they have the whole picture, frankly. This is a charismatic synchretism, packaged for New Age audience, copyrighted and franchised out like McDonald’s. Nicky Gumbel even uses that analogy.
I think that the CCR is a door left standing open, with its own inordinate emphasis on tongues, teaching people to want tongues, teaching them to try tongues. There is an eerie similarity there, and a natural affinity, and I think there are few in the movement that might see the danger coming.
Nicky Gumbel, et al are not interested in the unity of Christians by the restoration of the wayward separated brethren to communion with Holy Mother Church. No, his unity of Christians is boldly synchretistic, in his own brand of charismaticism, the gospel of ALPHA.

 

[Les_Richardson]

Just an addendum Makerteacher as we begin advent.
To elaborate on your description.

Jesus was born in a barn, raised by a tradesman, associated with social rejects (prostitutes, tax-collectors)during his ministry, and was executed as a criminal.
Hardly the Messiah they were expecting was He? Praise His name.

 

[Mysty101]

1 Maria:

Advice from the Pope is a biggie.

Check out this quote from the Holy Father’s message to the Charismatic communities:

“Love for the Church and submission to her Magisterium,in a process of maturing in theChurch supported by a solid permanent formation are relevant signs of your intention to avoid the risk of favouring, unwittingly, a purely emotional experience of the divine, an excessive pursuit of the “extraordinary” and a private withdrawal that may shrink from apostolic outreach.”

Maria

Thanks for documenting what I have been saying all along. We must remain firmly Catholic in any aspect or worship.

The call to Christian unity should not be interpreted in a manner which could compromise Catholicism.

 

[1_Maria]

Mysty101:

Thanks for documenting what I have been saying all along. We must remain firmly Catholic in any aspect or worship.

The call to Christian unity should not be interpreted in a manner which could compromise Catholicism.

I’m thinking we all agree on that.

However, this is the part of what the Pope said that often gets ignored:

**...the risk of favouring, unwittingly, a purely emotional experience of the divine, an excessive pursuit of the "extraordinary" and a private withdrawal that may shrink from apostolic outreach."**

I do believe that as the CCR and it’s members mature we won’t be seeing a preponderance of the purely emotional and “extraordinary” that he speaks of.

The pope has great hopes for the CCR in regards to “apostolic outreach” that bypasses “the risks of of favouring, unwittingly, the purely emotional and “extraordinary””.

Maria

 

[Mysty101]

1 Maria:

I do believe that as the CCR and it’s members mature we won’t be seeing a preponderance of the purely emotional and “extraordinary” that he speaks of.

The pope has great hopes for the CCR in regards to “apostolic outreach” that bypasses “the risks of of favouring, unwittingly, the purely emotional and “extraordinary””.

Maria

The authentic groups (non-Catholic as well as Catholic) never did fall prey to that risk of a purely emotional experience.

 

[Makerteacher]

Les Richardson:

 This program is the product of Holy Trinity Brompton(England) Anglican church, specifically Nicky Gumbel.  His associations and pedigree take us back to the extremes in Pentecostalism that manifested itself in the Toronto Blessing and the Laughing Revival.  This is a "charismaticism" that belittles the Holy Spirit, discerns nothing, and was basically a spiritual/psychological free-for-all until wiser heads tuned it down somewhat because it was so unpallateable to the mainstream.  There are isolated pockets of it even yet.  The ALPHA program is more of a well dressed cousin.  This "charismaticism" is taught as a cross the board feature of a Christian life-style, way out of order, unlike the tongues of the Bible, totally disturbing in its attempt to sell signs and wonders to yuppies for the most part.  As if the gospel of Jesus Christ was somehow equivalent in importance to every other offering at some religious/spiritual world's fair and we must jazz up the message to compete.  Are the converts that come from this program converted to a Christian charismatic lifestyle or to Christ?  What happens when God allows some real suffering in their life?  If you drum up some tongues do you really have the change of heart necessary for the real in filling of the Holy Spirit?

Hi Les, Thanks for elaborating. This program ( both the first one you discussed-- does it have a name?-- and the Alpha program) sounds TERRIBLE! I’ll be honest, here in Texas I have never even heard of it. And I’m astonished that a Catholic priest would permit this to be used in our parishes. I find it particularly instructive that you say they teach a “Christian lifestyle”, rather than introducing people to Christ Himself. AMEN, that is a HUGE error and will lead to serious problems for people when troubles come along, as they inevitably will.

Here in Dallas, we start with a modified version of the LITSS. That’s nine weeks of classes. We do NOT insist on tongues. == I have not been in the class in twenty years, but now I find I have an interest in going and helping out (or maybe just sitting in) to make sure that is still true.== If the person is interested in going further, we have more for them. We then use a series of formation classes in our community program which we call, (so imaginatively) “Formation One” and “Formation Two.” These classes cover topics ranging from Sacramental living, to stewardship, to discernment, to contemplative prayer. Each series takes about 12-15 weeks to complete, meeting once a week.

Continued next post… (sorry, I tend to be a bit longwinded.)…

 

[Makerteacher]

(… continued…)

If, after finishing all those classes, the person feels called to make a covenant to the Community here, they may do so. They live as an underway committed member for a year or two, and may then may covenant committments if THEY want to. Persons not desiring to make that committment are NOT pushed to do so, and are always totally welcomed at prayer meetings and youth ministry functions. During their time in classes they are encouraged to come to weekly prayer meetings. Once you make a covenant, you can be placed in an SLC if you desire, and are asked to serve the community in our hour-by-hour prayer watch, in tithing, and in offering your talents and treasure for one of our outreach ministries.

Those of us who HAVE made a covenant did so because we truly felt the Lord was telling us to do so, in order to live as witnesses of Christ’s love for us by loving and serving one another in a radical way. No one in leadership invades my privacy, asks me about my money (or my furniture and my school carpools), or pushes me to speak in tongues. What my Shared Life Cluster (SLC) leader DOES do is phone me about twice a month to ask me these questions: “How are you? Do you need anything? And what is God saying to you in your prayer time?” There are currently 12 SLCs in our community, and not everyone participates. It’s voluntary. We need to add a couple more SLCs soon as some of them are getting too big for the leader to reasonably care for the needs of that many members. Each SLC determines for itself what level of actitivy their members want or need, and how often they should meet. Some SLCs meet more often, some less, depending on the needs of that SLC and its members.

In our SLC, we meet once a month as adults only, and once a month with all our children, which is a real crowd I assure you, but always a blast. It always starts and ends with prayer. In between, we’ll have a potluck, go bowling, whatever. These meetings are purely for fun, for relationship building. We also have formed within our SLC a smaller group who is interested in studying together, and we are currently starting to read and study Theology of The Body. A nearby SLC is working it’s way through the Catechism, meeting once a week. A third SLC I know of is meeting weekly to discuss and discern what the Lord has been speaking to us at our prayer meetings. Most SLCs are mixed between old and young, married and single, children and childless.

As a Community, our leaders meet with the bishop a couple of times each year at minimum. We are often asked to provide music for diocesan functions, both English and Spanish. Our Spanish branch recently did the music for the Pentecost celebration at the Cathedral, and our English branch did the music for the national meeting of Catholic School Superintendants, which was in Dallas last month. The English branch leadership is also meeting with area pastors of other churches, as I told you earlier. The Spanish branch leadership is very connected to sister communities in Mexico.

THIS is what I mean by living as a Charismatic Catholic. I know it is not what everyone thinks of when they hear that term, but I can tell you there are between ten and twenty other Catholic Charismatic communities like ours in America, and over 200 worldwide. To be in the Fraternity of Catholic Charismatic Communities, you MUST have the support of your local bishop, and you MUST go through an induction process which takes several years to complete. This includes providing the Vatican with your mission statement, by-laws, and statutes. Our desire is to serve Jesus by serving the people around us and by serving the Church.

 

[Makerteacher]

Mysty101:

The authentic groups (non-Catholic as well as Catholic) never did fall prey to that risk of a purely emotional experience.

I agree with you here. The problem perhaps is that these more authentic groups, more mature perhaps or with better leadership, most other people never hear about! After all, people behaving responsibly and using good discerment does not make an interesting news headline. But people barking like dogs and making outrageous claims, does!

 

[Mysty101]

Amen to that!!

 

[gnome]

Makerteacher:

One of the things I find very interesting about doing this sort of ecumenical work is the resistance we get from other Catholics, who think we are trying to water down the Faith, or that we will somehow be “contaminated” by spending time with Protestants. (BTW, our Protestant friends assure us that they face similar condemnation from other Protestants for spending time with “cult members”, i.e., Catholics) My attitude is that these brothers and sisters of Christianity will NEVER come Home until they understand what home IS, and how will they ever do that if we all refuse to talk to each other for fear of “contamination?”

Yes when it comes to ecumenism, it’s less confusing since there is a guideline available. The resistance you’re talking about sometimes is obvious since people do fall outside of the guideline and call it ecumenism. For instance, correct me if i’m wrong, we’re not allowed to attend Protestant sunday service,
or worse to equate it as fulfillment for Sunday Mass.
The other false ecumenism is when non-Catholics attend Mass,
they are invited to receive Communion. My pastor whenever he knows there are non-Catholics attending Mass, like in wedding,
he always declares before people going up that only Catholics can receive Communion.

 

[gnome]

MakerTeacher,
Thanks for sharing the many groups in your community. I have seen parishes with variety of groups, functions, activities, involving
adults and/or children. There’s no doubt that many of these communities establish the bond and grow tremendously without realizing any concept about being charismatic. My parish has been a good example. So the question is what makes a community charismatic?

 

[gnome]

SPOKENWORD:

I personally see the Charismatics in the Catholic Church as an elete Body of Christians who have answered the call to be Mighty Warriors in Christs Army. I believe the time is coming soon when a full blown out attack against the church is going to take place in this country.and Yes the gates of hell will not destroy the church. Our battles are not against flesh and blood but against the evil spirits in the regions of above.Christs Body has many members and all have different gifts, this is not to put down those that are not Charismatic. Yes we are all soldiers but there are different positions and rankings.

The Church has been under attack throughout the Church’s history. The gifts are also given out throughout the Church’s history, to protect and enhance the faith. How else can the Church survived for 2000 years?

 

[1_Maria]

gnome:

The Church has been under attack throughout the Church’s history. The gifts are also given out throughout the Church’s history, to protect and enhance the faith. How else can the Church survived for 2000 years?

Very true, gnome,

Right now in the world there are many ecclesial and third order groups, etc., each with their own particular charism working together to build the Kingdom of God on Earth, which as we all should know is the vocation of the laity.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church check out Paragraphs # 898 and # 2442

The Pope has approved all the rules and statutes of quite a few of these movements.

Maria

 

[misericordie]

Why is it that many charismatic masses like this one in the picture are like this:http://www.traditio.com/comment/com0310k.jpg