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Mysty101
Guest
Gnome,
As I said
Mysty101:
As I said
- Status
R
RichT
Guest
No Problem!!!
E
Exporter
Guest
Makerteacher,
I commend you on you ability to write a post. You are familiar with some of the greats of Our Faith.
Is it possible that I detected the idea that Catholics who go into “something” ( I didn’t want to call it a trance) and go into convultions, babble aloud will always be in some back room: never to be advertised as “Real” Catholics?
Are you aware of precautions to be taken with mentally ill people? With medication you wouldn’t notice that illness.
I commend you on you ability to write a post. You are familiar with some of the greats of Our Faith.
Is it possible that I detected the idea that Catholics who go into “something” ( I didn’t want to call it a trance) and go into convultions, babble aloud will always be in some back room: never to be advertised as “Real” Catholics?
Are you aware of precautions to be taken with mentally ill people? With medication you wouldn’t notice that illness.
L
Les_Richardson
Guest
MakerTeacher,
Nice to see you weigh in here. I remember a few conversations we had some months ago on another thread and I appreciate your perspective and your balance. I disagree with you somewhat, but I will try to summarize what I mean about the larger picture in a further (lengthy) post. Suffice for the moment to say that if you listen to Ralph Martin, or Ann Shields, or Fr. Groeschel on EWTN, as an example, they all preach and teach a clear gospel that is what I would call “tongues free” version and can lead a person to a deeper, richer, fuller relationship with Jesus Christ, focussed on the Cross, empowered by the Holy Spirit. To me, that is the balance that transcends every spirituality regardless of the movement and is the essentials of our Faith, our salvation.
Mysty101,
Something you said I couldn’t pass by,
What goes on in a group is the province of the Church authorities to determine catholicity, to make any recommendations, or take any actions. Even in an authorized Church there can be errors and abuses having nothing to do with the charismatic movement. They can be authentic, yet fallen into error, and it is the discipline of the Church that is required to correct that. It has happened throughout Church history.
However, that does not preclude anyone from studying Scripture, Tradition and the statements of the Magesterium to analyse any movement within the Church, and post what they have discovered right here at CA Forums. If they think there is error in theology which can lead to error in practice, they should say so. If they have witness to error in practice, within the movement, they should point it out with some reference, and so attempt to discover what error of theology led to the error of practise. Further, it is within their province to speculate what may be the result if left unchecked or uncorrected.
Finally, nobody can condemn anyone. The Church has that authority but does not use it, which is one of the most beautiful features of the Catholic Faith. Therefore, I have studiously avoided making any statements of that kind in these threads as I note others have done.
Nice to see you weigh in here. I remember a few conversations we had some months ago on another thread and I appreciate your perspective and your balance. I disagree with you somewhat, but I will try to summarize what I mean about the larger picture in a further (lengthy) post. Suffice for the moment to say that if you listen to Ralph Martin, or Ann Shields, or Fr. Groeschel on EWTN, as an example, they all preach and teach a clear gospel that is what I would call “tongues free” version and can lead a person to a deeper, richer, fuller relationship with Jesus Christ, focussed on the Cross, empowered by the Holy Spirit. To me, that is the balance that transcends every spirituality regardless of the movement and is the essentials of our Faith, our salvation.
Mysty101,
Something you said I couldn’t pass by,
I’m not sure what you mean exactly by *authentic *but I agree with the sentiment. I would say that it starts with the individual. There is no way that I or anyone else can say that what happens between one person and God is real, unreal, in error, or whatever. That is for that person to determine based on the teachings of the Church balanced against the experience itself. Some people have found that what they thought was of the Holy Spirit wasn’t. But that said, it is the individual’s responsibility, and should not be passed off on a leader, or leadership.
What goes on in a group is the province of the Church authorities to determine catholicity, to make any recommendations, or take any actions. Even in an authorized Church there can be errors and abuses having nothing to do with the charismatic movement. They can be authentic, yet fallen into error, and it is the discipline of the Church that is required to correct that. It has happened throughout Church history.
However, that does not preclude anyone from studying Scripture, Tradition and the statements of the Magesterium to analyse any movement within the Church, and post what they have discovered right here at CA Forums. If they think there is error in theology which can lead to error in practice, they should say so. If they have witness to error in practice, within the movement, they should point it out with some reference, and so attempt to discover what error of theology led to the error of practise. Further, it is within their province to speculate what may be the result if left unchecked or uncorrected.
Finally, nobody can condemn anyone. The Church has that authority but does not use it, which is one of the most beautiful features of the Catholic Faith. Therefore, I have studiously avoided making any statements of that kind in these threads as I note others have done.
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1_Maria
Guest
Les Richardson said:
Well said. Thanks Les.
Maria
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RichT
Guest
Hi Les, I like your comments in post #104. This is right along the lines of something I said early on. I did say that I had to learn early on how to use my gift of discernment, and that sometimes I felt it wasn’t my place to judge. I guess what I am saying is that I would not allow what another person is doing to spoil my relationship with Jesus. When I attend prayer meetings I expect someone or for that matter many to at some point start praying in some sort of prayer language. Because I have come to expect it, it doesn’t bother me. If it bothered me, I wouldn’t attend these types of prayer meetings.
Anyway I hope your holiday was good. I am not sure if you will ever be satisfied with the answers we are giving you as with the topic of prayer language, it is difficult to swallow for some. Then again, there is much within our faith that is difficult for some to swallow. That’s why we call them mysteries! God Bless!!!
Anyway I hope your holiday was good. I am not sure if you will ever be satisfied with the answers we are giving you as with the topic of prayer language, it is difficult to swallow for some. Then again, there is much within our faith that is difficult for some to swallow. That’s why we call them mysteries! God Bless!!!
M
Mysty101
Guest
Les Richardson:
Would I trust someone on a forum over a Priest in good standing? Most of the criticisms are regarding inauthentic or non-Catholic groups. One post combined something from a brother, with a website about the Toronto Blessing, insinuating the animal sounds of the Toronto Blessing are part of authentic Catholic Charismatic worship.
No, I don’t agree that self interpretation is valid.
But that was not the point of my post anyway. You took that statement out of context
I said
And what if the assessment is wrong? This is no place to criticize authentic Catholic Prayer groups. If you have a problem, take it to the proper authority. As I said, no one here has that authority.
Would I trust someone on a forum over a Priest in good standing? Most of the criticisms are regarding inauthentic or non-Catholic groups. One post combined something from a brother, with a website about the Toronto Blessing, insinuating the animal sounds of the Toronto Blessing are part of authentic Catholic Charismatic worship.
No, I don’t agree that self interpretation is valid.
But that was not the point of my post anyway. You took that statement out of context
I said
I was stressing the fact that St Paul’s admonitions to the Corinthans cannot be used as if they were addressed to the Prayer groups of today. (Remember the instructions about women and slaves–they also do not apply today)
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gnome
Guest
apparently the interpretation from USCCB does not carry enough proper authority for you. I have no idea why you keep on saying inauthentic and non-Catholic groups, the criticism w/ references pointed out here are from Catholic Priests and Brother.
If St.Paul’s letters cannot be used to address prayer groups today, then why would the Catholic Church, who compiled and put together the Bible, included these letters in the first place?
Is this your private interpretation or does it come from a Priest in good standing?
L
Les_Richardson
Guest
Alright. I see your point. So I would ask you, what would you say was the problem in the Corinthian Church?
From the quotations you have given, it appears that it was an inordinate interest in tongues, right?
Check out page 25 of Finding New Life in the Spirit(Servant,1872) the guidebook given to participants in the Life in the Spirit Seminars developed by Word of God Community out of Ann Arbor, Michigan. The candidate is told to say: “I ask you to baptize me in the Holy Spirit and give me the gift of tongues.”
Not any gift that the Holy Spirit sees fit to give, not the gift of administration, not the gift of prophecy, etc., etc. No, the gift of tongues.
Is it any wonder that the critics of CCR seem to be hung up on tongues?
And what if the assessment is right? What if the problems are not due solely to the quality of leadership but are intrinsic to the approach of the movement itself? This movement has no hard and fast rules, no constitution per se. That is why any endorsement by the Pope was quite non-specific and was by no means a blanket endorsement of all that goes on. In fact, I don’t think anyone is aware of all that goes on, even the highest profile leaders.
As to St. Paul, we are encouraged to study the Bible. And in the absence of specific verse by verse instruction from the Magesterium, we must rely upon the teachings of Bishops, priests and theologians and stack them against each other and decide how we, as individuals must live, given what we have been taught. If those sources of teaching disagree, what then? Well we certainly can, as I have done, step back from a passage or chapter of the New Testament and look at the context and try to determine the overall tone, tenor and direction of the writer. What is his theme, consistent throughout? What does that say in the specifics? Is there somewhat that is time-sensitive, ie. the context of the day, and are there portions that transcend time because the situations are the same or similar. Is my assessment backed up anybody such as a priest or Bishop or theologian? If I’m totally on my own, I need to re-think.
As to a prayer group, I’ve said it before, and I’ll repeat, if the group is advertised as including vocal prayer in tongues, then anyone who attends knows what they are attending. I will not be attending. And that is the same point you and others constantly make, is it not? If you don’t like it, don’t go.
As to authentic and inauthentic, I am still in the dark here as to how you determine the difference. Where is the line drawn, in other words? Is it doctrine? We know that practices come from doctrine or theology. As an example, Protestants have different practices than we do, because they have a different (mistaken) theology. So could a group be inauthentic yet Catholic? Or are all Catholic groups authentic? If not, what is it in their beliefs (the source of their practices) that differs from an authentic group? Or is it merely the stamp of some authority? Do you know then what is the basis for giving or withholding that stamp of approval?
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Mysty101
Guest
Les Richardson said-- Alright. I see your point. So I would ask you, what would you say was the problem in the Corinthian Church?
From the quotations you have given, it appears that it was an inordinate interest in tongues, right?
Yes, it does, but this does not give you reason to assume this is the problem with all Charismatic groups.
Check out page 25 of Finding New Life in the Spirit(Servant,1872) the guidebook given to participants in the Life in the Spirit Seminars developed by Word of God Community out of Ann Arbor, Michigan. The candidate is told to say: “I ask you to baptize me in the Holy Spirit and give me the gift of tongues.”
Not any gift that the Holy Spirit sees fit to give, not the gift of administration, not the gift of prophecy, etc., etc. No, the gift of tongues.
Is it any wonder that the critics of CCR seem to be hung up on tongues?
I am not familiar with this group. Is it Catholic, and under Diocesan leadership? Our format for Baptism in the Spirit is accepting Jesus Christ as Lord, and our personal Savior. We ask the Spirit to fill us and use us as He sees fit. We use much material from the Catherine of Sienna Institute.
And what if the assessment is right? What if the problems are not due solely to the quality of leadership but are intrinsic to the approach of the movement itself? …, I don’t think anyone is aware of all that goes on, even the highest profile leaders.
Is my assessment backed up anybody such as a priest or Bishop or theologian? If I’m totally on my own, I need to re-think.
This is my point entirely—Every commentary states that Paul is speaking to the Church in Corinth— I repeat, would you think instructions on slaves or women would apply today?
As to a prayer group, I’ve said it before, and I’ll repeat, if the group is advertised as including vocal prayer in tongues, then anyone who attends knows what they are attending. I will not be attending. And that is the same point you and others constantly make, is it not? If you don’t like it, don’t go.
This is your prerogative, and I respect your choice. I am not telling you to go. I just want to point out the flaws in arguments against praying in tongues, especially saying that it is condemned by St Paul.
As to authentic and inauthentic,. So could a group be inauthentic yet Catholic? Or are all Catholic groups authentic? If not, what is it in their beliefs (the source of their practices) that differs from an authentic group? Or is it merely the stamp of some authority? Do you know then what is the basis for giving or withholding that stamp of approval?
As I said many times Is the group under Catholic authority, with solid Catholic leadership? Of course the decision ultimately rests with you. And of course, you can choose to stay away from Charismatic events where they pray in tongues (that would be 99% of the meetings, but most of the events restrict prayer tongue to the praise time or the prayers for healing) But this is your choice, and not a reason to condemn any group where there is prayer in tongues. Many people do not like the Mass in Latin–they do not condemn–they just attend a Mass in the vernacular. My group and conference are under Parish and Diocesan authority. We have many Priests in good standing involved. All our events have many Priests attending.
From the quotations you have given, it appears that it was an inordinate interest in tongues, right?
Yes, it does, but this does not give you reason to assume this is the problem with all Charismatic groups.
Check out page 25 of Finding New Life in the Spirit(Servant,1872) the guidebook given to participants in the Life in the Spirit Seminars developed by Word of God Community out of Ann Arbor, Michigan. The candidate is told to say: “I ask you to baptize me in the Holy Spirit and give me the gift of tongues.”
Not any gift that the Holy Spirit sees fit to give, not the gift of administration, not the gift of prophecy, etc., etc. No, the gift of tongues.
Is it any wonder that the critics of CCR seem to be hung up on tongues?
I am not familiar with this group. Is it Catholic, and under Diocesan leadership? Our format for Baptism in the Spirit is accepting Jesus Christ as Lord, and our personal Savior. We ask the Spirit to fill us and use us as He sees fit. We use much material from the Catherine of Sienna Institute.
And what if the assessment is right? What if the problems are not due solely to the quality of leadership but are intrinsic to the approach of the movement itself? …, I don’t think anyone is aware of all that goes on, even the highest profile leaders.
Is my assessment backed up anybody such as a priest or Bishop or theologian? If I’m totally on my own, I need to re-think.
This is my point entirely—Every commentary states that Paul is speaking to the Church in Corinth— I repeat, would you think instructions on slaves or women would apply today?
As to a prayer group, I’ve said it before, and I’ll repeat, if the group is advertised as including vocal prayer in tongues, then anyone who attends knows what they are attending. I will not be attending. And that is the same point you and others constantly make, is it not? If you don’t like it, don’t go.
This is your prerogative, and I respect your choice. I am not telling you to go. I just want to point out the flaws in arguments against praying in tongues, especially saying that it is condemned by St Paul.
As to authentic and inauthentic,. So could a group be inauthentic yet Catholic? Or are all Catholic groups authentic? If not, what is it in their beliefs (the source of their practices) that differs from an authentic group? Or is it merely the stamp of some authority? Do you know then what is the basis for giving or withholding that stamp of approval?
As I said many times Is the group under Catholic authority, with solid Catholic leadership? Of course the decision ultimately rests with you. And of course, you can choose to stay away from Charismatic events where they pray in tongues (that would be 99% of the meetings, but most of the events restrict prayer tongue to the praise time or the prayers for healing) But this is your choice, and not a reason to condemn any group where there is prayer in tongues. Many people do not like the Mass in Latin–they do not condemn–they just attend a Mass in the vernacular. My group and conference are under Parish and Diocesan authority. We have many Priests in good standing involved. All our events have many Priests attending.
L
Les_Richardson
Guest
Why is it either/or for you? Mysty101, I have to admit, this is frustrating. We’re not communicating well, you and I. You have consistently missed the point here re: St. Paul and the Corinthian Church. St. Paul spoke in tongues, he said he wished all of them could speak in tongues, he told them that speaking in tongues should not be forbidden. **Condemned by St. Paul? **I don’t see that, do you? I know I have never said that and neither have most posters that refer to that passage.
*What he did say was that tongues was not the greatest of the gifts by far, not everyone is given that gift, that the gifts are meant to help the whole church, that the speaking of tongues is in the command and control of the person with the gift, and in the church it is better for everyone, particularly someone who is not yet a Christian, if they understand, ie. linguistically, everything that is going on. That is more likely to lead them to Christ. And above all, none if this means a thing, if we don’t have the fruits of the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives, the first of these being Love. *
What about all of that does not apply in 2004? In reality, in this passage of Scripture, I don’t think we are all that far apart, do you?
M
Mysty101
Guest
Les,
Please be reasonable–you have posted very negatively regarding tongues, (post #12 in the Prayer meeting thread, you mentioned the statements of a Catholic brother, and the criticisms of tongues in a protestant group, which is very misleading, since this was not initially identified as a protestant group.)
We are light years apart regarding this issue.
You do not want to attend any service or gathering where they pray in tongues, and I frequently pray in tongues in praise as well as on a prayer team (in a Catholic Church with the Pastor present).
I am also an EMHC at Mass as well as in the hospital. a reader at Mass, a catechist, a choirmember, the treasure of the Prayer group, and the publicity manager of the Conference. I am a daily communicant, and do spend time in adoration. I am not some person who causes a “shadow to pass over your soul.”
I am truly sorry that I was angry in some of my posts. I should know better than to respond to these posts.
**
Prayer tongues have no interpretation, and many posters use that passage to condemn prayer tongues.
I pray in tongues, under the authority of my pastor, and I do get very angry to hear this maligned as with the website you posted.
Please be reasonable–you have posted very negatively regarding tongues, (post #12 in the Prayer meeting thread, you mentioned the statements of a Catholic brother, and the criticisms of tongues in a protestant group, which is very misleading, since this was not initially identified as a protestant group.)
We are light years apart regarding this issue.
You do not want to attend any service or gathering where they pray in tongues, and I frequently pray in tongues in praise as well as on a prayer team (in a Catholic Church with the Pastor present).
I am also an EMHC at Mass as well as in the hospital. a reader at Mass, a catechist, a choirmember, the treasure of the Prayer group, and the publicity manager of the Conference. I am a daily communicant, and do spend time in adoration. I am not some person who causes a “shadow to pass over your soul.”
I am truly sorry that I was angry in some of my posts. I should know better than to respond to these posts.
**
I don’t see that, do you? I know I have never said that and neither have most posters that refer to that passage. **
Prayer tongues have no interpretation, and many posters use that passage to condemn prayer tongues.
I pray in tongues, under the authority of my pastor, and I do get very angry to hear this maligned as with the website you posted.
L
Les_Richardson
Guest
I think I am being reasonable, reserved even. As you wish. In post #110 you give the first real answer to the questions I have posed here. I will research the Catherine of Sienna Institute. That seems to be the only way that I can find the information.
My questions all have this objective, namely that I would like to know what the outer limits are for you, for your prayer group, for the entire CCR, for anyone in it. That kind of answer is extremely difficult to get, I am finding. So the name of an organization is helpful, because they will normally have some theological or doctrinal statements. Other than that, the only way to figure out what someone believes is by seeing what they practice.
Without, I repeat, without maligning you or your pastor, I cannot just accept the only general assurance of authenticity that you have given so far. I cannot for the following reasons.
First, the movement in the Catholic Church that has become known as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal got it’s start from a Pentecostal (Protestant) prayer group. I doubt a lot of people in the CCR even know that. Here’s a link to a summary of the CCR’s history from the point of view of someone in the movement and an enthusiastic supporter.
peace.mb.ca/08.Doors_to_Christ/xneil08.htm
I offend you every time I mention it, so I won’t by name, but the greatest excesses and manifestations of unholiness came about in a branch of Protestant Pentecostalism. Is there a common source to the Protestant Pentecostal group that the two Catholic professors went to for the purpose of receiving the charisms of the Spirit? It would be a very useful project to research their pedigree. If we have already opened the doors to the Protestant Pentecostals, how are we protected from their errors?
The** Second** is obvious. A read of Church history will quickly show that most if not all the major heresies were supported, promoted and taught by Catholic Bishops, Priests and Monks until they were determined to be no longer Catholic by Papal determination. There was even the occasional Pope that was carried along by heresy. Before you take offense at the comparison, consider how extreme a heresy is, as compared to what we are discussing, and yet there were clergy, devout, well-meaning, otherwise Godly men, I’m sure, who fell into heresy.
As for me, having looked at this from the other side, having explored things that I would fear today, long before I was Catholic, I am cautious, some might say too cautious. But I console myself with this thought. My salvation does not depend on receiving any particular gift of the Holy Spirit. He gives what He wills, for His own purposes, and I am satisfied with that. As a catechist I’m sure you could agree on that.
I have seen and known the working of the Holy Spirit, transforming lives through the message of the Gospel, mine included, independent of charismatic gifts. And to me, that will be the future of evangelization.
L
Les_Richardson
Guest
MakerTeacher,
Here are a couple of links that indicate what I suggested to you, ie. that leadership in the CCR often speaks of the broader vision, even yet, of evangelization of the entire Church. I don’t think many of them are yet ready to merely take a place on the smorgasboard of Catholic Spirituality.
peace.mb.ca/08.Doors_to_Christ/xneil08.htm
isidor.se/ccreurope/documents/ccr.htm
ccr.org.au/spirituality.html
I was thinking today, perhaps the divergence that I see between;
the view of a non-charismatic experience of the saving power of Christ throught the Holy Spirit, the in-Filling of the Holy Spirit, and how to get to that point in our spiritual lives;
and the view of a charismatic on the same subjects;
could be illustrated by how we each view the report in the Acts of the Apostles of the actual Day of Pentecost.
The highlight of that event for me, the miracle to rejoice in, would be in the verse 41 of Chapter 2 of Acts “Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day.”
I think, from everything I have seen and read that the charismatics’ highlight or focus would be how it happened, or at the very least would be given as much attention as the result.
Correct me if I’m wrong on that, but it’s what I see.
Here are a couple of links that indicate what I suggested to you, ie. that leadership in the CCR often speaks of the broader vision, even yet, of evangelization of the entire Church. I don’t think many of them are yet ready to merely take a place on the smorgasboard of Catholic Spirituality.
peace.mb.ca/08.Doors_to_Christ/xneil08.htm
isidor.se/ccreurope/documents/ccr.htm
ccr.org.au/spirituality.html
I was thinking today, perhaps the divergence that I see between;
the view of a non-charismatic experience of the saving power of Christ throught the Holy Spirit, the in-Filling of the Holy Spirit, and how to get to that point in our spiritual lives;
and the view of a charismatic on the same subjects;
could be illustrated by how we each view the report in the Acts of the Apostles of the actual Day of Pentecost.
The highlight of that event for me, the miracle to rejoice in, would be in the verse 41 of Chapter 2 of Acts “Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day.”
I think, from everything I have seen and read that the charismatics’ highlight or focus would be how it happened, or at the very least would be given as much attention as the result.
Correct me if I’m wrong on that, but it’s what I see.
F
francisca
Guest
John 7:38-39
38 Whoever BELIEVES in ME [believes in JESUS - francisca], as scripture says: ‘Rivers of living water will flow from within him.’"
39 He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive . There was, of course, no Spirit yet, 15 because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Only by believing one can have access to the gifts of The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our Helper (so Jesus called Him). He is the Spirit of TRUTH: it speaks nothing but TRUTH : Our salvation through Jesus.
To defferenciate the spirit, we can see :
This Spirit sings songs of praises. Songs of praises is very very important. We can magnify God by simply singing like King David. The whole Israel has always been singing even since the time of Moses. And when we sing the songs of priase, we place God on HIS THRONE where He supposed to be in our heart. He is the number one for us as He IS. We place Him where He supposed to be (to be more exact : we place ourselves under His feet, where we supposed to be). We surrender totally to HIM to rule over us and our problems in life.
So… abuses? I don’t really worry about abuses. As long as we believe, we praise Him and thank Him, we shall receive the Holy Spirit to guide our path.
In order to make the people BELIEVE, we need to teach them “The Word”. This is how we make sure that we are free from errors : by spreading the Good News as instructed by Jesus. This Good News is our protection. And we must do this praising and thanking HIM along the way. By doing this, we can be sure that we are in the correct path : a free people, joyful forgiven and trusting nothing but God’s faithfulness in Jesus Christ.
Notice that in John 7:39
39 … There was, of course, no Spirit yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
So the Holy Spirit comes only when Jesus is glorified.
Errors are always there in the world. But the Holy Spirit who guided simple man like Simon Peter and changed him to a wise guy, let us understand and believe that the same Spirit isl also our guidance in our personal walk with God in His Way.
May God bless us all.
38 Whoever BELIEVES in ME [believes in JESUS - francisca], as scripture says: ‘Rivers of living water will flow from within him.’"
39 He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive . There was, of course, no Spirit yet, 15 because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Only by believing one can have access to the gifts of The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our Helper (so Jesus called Him). He is the Spirit of TRUTH: it speaks nothing but TRUTH : Our salvation through Jesus.
To defferenciate the spirit, we can see :
- if this spirit makes us praise and worship God in Jesus Name, magnify God in Jesus Christ and lessen self (meaning be focus on Jesus works instead of self ) then this spirit is the Holy Spirit. This Spirit is humble, meaning He makes us humble. This Spirit also speaks of God’s faithfulness, and because of this, whoever receives this spirit will be transformed into a faithful person too. This faithfulness is FAITH.
- if this spirit magnifies self, and belittle God, this spirit is not The Holy Spirit.
This Spirit sings songs of praises. Songs of praises is very very important. We can magnify God by simply singing like King David. The whole Israel has always been singing even since the time of Moses. And when we sing the songs of priase, we place God on HIS THRONE where He supposed to be in our heart. He is the number one for us as He IS. We place Him where He supposed to be (to be more exact : we place ourselves under His feet, where we supposed to be). We surrender totally to HIM to rule over us and our problems in life.
So… abuses? I don’t really worry about abuses. As long as we believe, we praise Him and thank Him, we shall receive the Holy Spirit to guide our path.
In order to make the people BELIEVE, we need to teach them “The Word”. This is how we make sure that we are free from errors : by spreading the Good News as instructed by Jesus. This Good News is our protection. And we must do this praising and thanking HIM along the way. By doing this, we can be sure that we are in the correct path : a free people, joyful forgiven and trusting nothing but God’s faithfulness in Jesus Christ.
Notice that in John 7:39
39 … There was, of course, no Spirit yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
So the Holy Spirit comes only when Jesus is glorified.
Errors are always there in the world. But the Holy Spirit who guided simple man like Simon Peter and changed him to a wise guy, let us understand and believe that the same Spirit isl also our guidance in our personal walk with God in His Way.
May God bless us all.
M
Mysty101
Guest
Les,
It is quite obvious that you personally will probably never benefit from any Charismatic Prayer group—this is fine. You follow your Religion in the way that is best for you.
I, too follow my religion in the traditional manner, but also sometimes worship in the style of the Charismatic movement. (Some don’t like the word movement, but since the style is different, it is good to differentiate. It is not really viable to combine the worship styles)
Group private prayer can be quite chaotic. When everyone starts praising or petitioning, it can be very confusing with people all saying different things, and do we really know what we need?
…but it is not for everyone
It is quite obvious that you personally will probably never benefit from any Charismatic Prayer group—this is fine. You follow your Religion in the way that is best for you.
I, too follow my religion in the traditional manner, but also sometimes worship in the style of the Charismatic movement. (Some don’t like the word movement, but since the style is different, it is good to differentiate. It is not really viable to combine the worship styles)
Group private prayer can be quite chaotic. When everyone starts praising or petitioning, it can be very confusing with people all saying different things, and do we really know what we need?
And the result is peaceful, beautiful group prayer. No one trying to out do the others either in volume or “better” prayer. It brings so much peace (and sometimes physical healing) to the person receiving prayer as well as the person praying.
…but it is not for everyone
M
Mysty101
Guest
PS
Look at the abuses in some parishes that are not Charismatic in style.
I really do think the most important thing is whether or not the group is under good Catholic authority, with good Catholic leadership. Isn’t this the manner in which you would discern any religious group? What about a non-charismatic prayer group or scripture study?
The outer limits of what? The power of the Holy Spirit? What are the outer limits of any worship style?
Look at the abuses in some parishes that are not Charismatic in style.
I really do think the most important thing is whether or not the group is under good Catholic authority, with good Catholic leadership. Isn’t this the manner in which you would discern any religious group? What about a non-charismatic prayer group or scripture study?
What do you mean? We believe the Catholic deposit of faith, and the Magisterium the same as any other Catholic. Most of us just add prayer group and healing services to the normal Catholic worship.
L
Les_Richardson
Guest
(edited for space)
We are living in a spiritual war zone francisca. We are even told there will be deceivers. We have seen them in Protestant circles before we borrowed this.
And it was all so unnecessary. Those two professors didn’t need to experiment. The fullness of the in-filling of the Holy Spirit was available to all, with boundless possibilities, right in the hands of every Catholic long before the Pentecostal infusion. And it still is.
It’s not the only manner, you also check out what they are teaching. The same is true for any group, but teaching is one thing, experiential application is another.
I believe that!
You know something? With all my heart I wish and pray that all this is will turn out in the end to be just a matter of style. I would so like to be wrong about all of this. I would love to stand in embarrassment on judgement day and be shown that I was all wrong.
But if I’m not wrong, and I just go along and say, “you do your thing and I’ll do mine,” I’ll have to account for that too, for not having made the attempt, at least. And, of course, this forum is not the only avenue in which to do that.
1
1_Maria
Guest
Les Richardson:
Les, I agree. The true fruit that should be apparent in all the ecclesial movements is the emergence of many lives of true holiness.
This, as you already know, will attract many, many people to follow Jesus, and only Jesus, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Maria
…teaching is one thing, experiential application is another.
Les, I agree. The true fruit that should be apparent in all the ecclesial movements is the emergence of many lives of true holiness.
This, as you already know, will attract many, many people to follow Jesus, and only Jesus, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Maria
M
Mysty101
Guest
Les,
You did not respond to this part of post 116
You did not include the scripture
do you have any comment on the PS
Mysty101:
You did not respond to this part of post 116
You did not include the scripture
do you have any comment on the PS
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