Questions for Muslims posting here

  • Thread starter Thread starter kristin2007
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
**

The do you think there are scientific miracles in any version of the Holy Bible or in the one you consider as Holy if not in Apocyphal books?

BTW, there was a reason behind my “classic” response.

**
yes the reason for your ‘classic’ response is cause you dont have the answers, now this question is about the ‘so called’ scientific miracles in the quran, not the bible, if you want to know that, start an appropriate thread.
 
dolphinlove

I have been challenging Muslims on this issue for years. The evasions you see here are typical. Most of them have no understanding of science anyway.

Interestingly, Muslims who are serious scientists - ie they do research and publish their findings in peer reviewed journals – never claim there are any scientific miracles in the koran. In fact they are quite dismayed by these claims.

Rationally

Your last post is a null response.
Hi Kristin and welcome to the forums.
I see your a fellow Aussie, welcome!
There is a user here who was once a Muslim, and converted to Christianity. I actually sent him a message about this thread, because he has written papers that debunk scientific claims of the quran. His name is Angelos, and you will soon become familiar with him, because his answers and faith are just amazing.
Im sure he will chime in this thread sooner or later 😉
Anyway, welcome to the threads.
Im studying science myself at the moment, so it will be interesting to see what responses we get.
 
Now my problem with claims of so-called “scientific miracles” in the koran is that the claimants never submit their findings to this quality control mechanism.

Why not?
**Because first, they (Muslims) are not bound by the system you have created or think is best, as your system is not the last word nor Word of God.

Muslims have their own system which is already scientific in nature - the whole religious body/system, I mean -, as the Holy Qur’an has already invited people since 1400 years to PONDER/THINK over the Nature/Creation and the Ayaat of the Holy Qur’an to see/verify whether it is telling the truth or not.

And your scientific institutions came into being in what period? When was the last time West came out of her Dark Ages? And what was the back-bone of Europes’ Renaissance? Through whose scientific contributions Earope is enjoying the freedom from her own Chrsitian fundamentalism?

Now let me put it this way: The whole Holy Qur’an has been already submitted to the whole world with it’s ever green wonderfull mirculous Arabic language for a scientific or any other “…ic” inquiry/verification to be scrutinized.

If you still think Muslims must follow the rules set (by your journels) then my question is: why they should abide by your rules, as they are not imposing their system on your school curriculum or community. Are they?**
 
Muslims are forever telling me about so-called “scientific miracles” in the koran. By this they mean that there are scientific truths in the koran that Western scientists only discovered (re-discovered?) many centuries later.

There are now many websites devoted to this topic. Recently the science faculty of al Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt, granted a doctorate degree to a dissertation on the topic of “scientific miracles” in the koran.

See: dailystaregypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=9347

Here are my questions.

–Do you personally believe there are “scientific miracles” in the koran?

–If there are scientific miracles in the koran why can I find no reference to these in recognised peer-reviewed scientific journals such as Nature, Science or Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences?

In regards to the second question, two names constantly recur when discussing the so-called “scientific miracles” in the koran. They are Keith Moore and Maurice Bucaille. Keith Moore actually wrote a well-regarded textbook on embryology. Both Moore and Bucaille have published articles in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

However neither has ever published anything about scientific miracles in the koran in a peer reviewed scientific journal.

Why is that?

Note, any scientist who discovered scientific miracles in a 14 century document would be more famous than Einstein! This brings me to my third question:

–Why don’t Moore and Bucaille submit papers on their amazing discovery to Nature, the world’s premier scientific journal?

I would appreciate some real answers. NOT links to Muslims websites, online lectures by Imams, etc.
Hello Kristin2007,

Welcome to the forum, and pleased to meet you.

As a former Muslim, I am familiar with these claims concerning the nature and reliability of the Islamic Scripture. I call them “claims” because they are never proven to be true. Although most Muslims refer to a few vague verses of the Koran as “scientific facts revealed to mankind 1400 years ago” and pretend to be honest by citing a few scientific authorities to support their suppositions, they can never prove that scientists endorse the scientific miracles in the Koran. This is because Muslim scholars always check the latest discoveries in any field of science before going to their scripture and searching there a vague verse the meaning of which can be twisted and adapted to the latest discoveries. Thus, Muslims implicitly acknowledge that it is impossible to know the so-called scientific miracles/mysteries in the Koran before scientists discover something new. In other words, the Koran is uncannily independent on the efforts and studies of some scientists, most of whom are not even Muslims. 😉

Muslim scholars/writers/commentators generally use the following techniques while working out miracles from some verses of the Koran, and all these techniques are related to the notion of perversion:
  1. Choose a vague verse that is open to multiple interpretations with no preciseness due to its lack of context.
  2. Choose a verse and ignore its context which reveals its true sense having nothing in common with scientific discoveries.
  3. If the Koran has several and similar verses on the same issue, choose only the one that can be misinterpreted and ignore the others.
  4. Ascribe linguistic and cultural peculiarities of a language (Arabic) to the Koran and its teachings.
  5. Choose mistaken translations of the Koran.
  6. Make use of the grammatical features of the Koran.
  7. Ignore the fact that the Koran uses many notions metaphorically.
  8. Ignore the fact that the Koran uses many words with multiple senses.
I shall get back soon and start posting my articles to rebut all the supposed scientific miracles of the Koran.

:blessyou:
 
Hello Kristin2007,

Welcome to the forum, and pleased to meet you.

I shall get back soon and start posting my articles to rebut all the supposed scientific miracles of the Koran.
**

You mean Kristin is hungry to read your “articles”? Otherwise she will be lost in the claims of Muslims if you don’t post them to educate her?

Are you a scientist/referee and a linguist? Why don’t you submit your articles to peer reviewed journals?

LOL LOL**
 
**

You mean Kristin is hungry to read your “articles”? Otherwise she will be lost in the claims of Muslims if you don’t post them to educate her?

Are you a scientist/referee and a linguist? Why don’t you submit your articles to peer reviewed journals?

LOL LOL**
Are you that worried that when he posts them, they will make sense and they will debunk islam?
Personally, im looking forward to reading them.
 
–Do you personally believe there are “scientific miracles” in the koran?
I personally don’t see any scientific miracle in Quran at all, I have searched for them, read what other said, but I didn’t find them scientific, indeed some of them are scientific errors.
–If there are scientific miracles in the koran why can I find no reference to these in recognised peer-reviewed scientific journals such as Nature, Science or Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences?
One of the claimed miracles is the moon split but the pictures from NASA satellites clearly revoke that.
faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina40928p14.htm
 
Rationally,

All claims of a scientific nature need to go through peer review to be taken seriously.

If the truth of the claims is as obvious as you assert there should be no problem with the peer review.
**Do you know (it is probably for the first time) that an another peer review journal alongside existing many peer reviewed journal is launched but this time by who? By Christian creationists:
Thursday, January 24, 2008
"Peer Reviewed" Creationism Journal Launched
Nature News yesterday reported that Answers in Genesis, the group that last year opened a Creation Museum in Petersburg, Kentucky, has now launched a new online scholarly journal, Answers Research Journal. The journal’s website describes it as “a professional, peer-reviewed technical journal for the publication of interdisciplinary scientific and other relevant research from the perspective of the recent Creation and the global Flood within a biblical framework.” The journal’s editor-in-chief, Australian geologist Andrew Snelling, says that “papers … will be reviewed … through a large network of well-qualified creationist researchers, scientists, and theologians who are the best thinkers in their fields of creationist research.” Volume 1, Issue 1, is already available.

religionclause.blogspot.com/2008/01/peer-reviewed-creationism-journal.html

So why these Creationsts took the trouble to launch a journal of their own when the West already have many? The below excerpt from it’s first volume explains why:
"Critics of creationism and Intelligent Design (ID) often note that creationist or ID research does not appear in peer-reviewed literature (e.g., Crawford 1982; Scott and Branch 2003; Max 2004; Bottaro et al. 2006). Creationists complain that we are excluded from the peer-reviewed literature
(Anderson 2002; Kulikovsky 2008; see also Tipler 2004) and are therefore required to publish in our own peer reviewed-literature (Morris 2003). Critics view creationist peer review as not “real” peer review. For example, recent attempts to launch new creationist peer-reviewed journals have been met with scorn or dismissal (Sparks et al. 2007; Brumfiel 2008)."

answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v1/n1/theology-peer-review

See what is REALLY happening with your own Christian Creationists in your peer review world, as they have been excluded from the peer-reviewed, let alone non-Christain creationists.**
 
Is there any Western/Christian Universty which allows students to do such research to “prove” or look for the scientific miracles in any version of the Holy Bible, in the first place. If no, why?
Actually the Vatican does have its Pontifical Academy of Sciences founded by the Catholic Church in 1936.

Just take a look at its list of **Current members “for life” and Nobel Prize Members.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_Academy_of_Sciences


Vatican Observatory:
**en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Observatory

What you simply do not understand is that if you have faith, you do not need to prove any scientific miracles that “must” be found in any authentic scripture, of any religion.

The language of the old can be misleading especially in the field of science because anybody can manipulate its meanings to suit the agenda**.
**
 
Are you that worried that when he posts them, they will make sense and they will debunk islam?
No, I am “worried” that when Scientist Angelos’ posts his “peer reviewed articles” by using his copy-&-paste miraclous scientific ability, it will simply waste lot of web-space of this forum on the one hand and on the other, poor Kristin will be “misguided” after wasting her “valuable time” on reading them.

I don’t know if Scientist Angelos’ is a creationist Catholics or not.

LOL
 
Actually the Vatican does have its Pontifical Academy of Sciences founded by the Catholic Church in 1936.
**I think it is you who misunderstood me. Please read again what I asked:
Originally Posted by rationally
Is there any Western/Christian Universty which allows students to do such research to “prove” or look for the scientific miracles in any version of the Holy Bible, in the first place. If no, why?
Now in the whole list of those scientists and even the Nobel prize winners (hopefully they are Protestants or catholics or Jews or atheists) associated with Vatican’s Pontifical Academy of Sciences, is there any one out of it who has submitted his paper to prove any Biblical miracle?**
 
No, I am “worried” that when Scientist Angelos’ posts his “peer reviewed articles” by using his copy-&-paste miraclous scientific ability, it will simply waste lot of web-space of this forum on the one hand and on the other, poor Kristin will be “misguided” after wasting her “valuable time” on reading them.

I don’t know if Scientist Angelos’ is a creationist Catholics or not.

LOL
How will she be misguided? Obviously she is a women of intelligence. Your the one that has failed to answer her questions.
So, this leads to your credibility, are you capable of answering her questions? Because you have failed to do so.
Maybe you should use some of your time and make it valuable by reading Angelos’ work, you never know what you might learn.😉
 
**

You mean Kristin is hungry to read your “articles”? Otherwise she will be lost in the claims of Muslims if you don’t post them to educate her?**
I see and feel worried that you are going wild both in your objections to Kristin’s post and in your efforts to evade the issue of the so-called scientific miracles in your Koran.

She simply wants some people to share with her their researches and studies on the theme of the supposed scientific predictions in the Islamic scripture. I think I have the right to be one of those people.
**
Are you a scientist/referee and a linguist? Why don’t you submit your articles to peer reviewed journals?
LOL LOL**
Nice hysterical laughters. 😉

I am not a scientist and have never claimed to be so. I am only a linguist and a former Muslim that has done some research on this topic. I also know that none of the Muslim scholars, who delight in adapting some vague verses of the Koran to the latest scientific discoveries, is a scientist!

Who told you that I had not submitted my articles to some journals??
 
No, I am “worried” that when Scientist Angelos’ posts his “peer reviewed articles” by using his copy-&-paste miraclous scientific ability, it will simply waste lot of web-space of this forum on the one hand and on the other, poor Kristin will be “misguided” after wasting her “valuable time” on reading them.

I don’t know if Scientist Angelos’ is a creationist Catholics or not.

LOL
You are getting one thing wrong: NO ONE has to be a scientist to rebut the alleged miraculous nature of the Koran.

Your prejudice reveals your fear. However, you needn’t fear or worry if you are a follower of the truth. 🙂
 
I think it is you who misunderstood me. Please read again what I asked:
Now in the whole list of those scientists and even the Nobel prize winners (hopefully they are Protestants or catholics or Jews or atheists) associated with Vatican’s Pontifical Academy of Sciences, is there any one out of it who has submitted his paper to prove any Biblical miracle?
Please re-read and comprehend what i wrote: **What you simply do not understand is that if you have faith, you do not need to prove any scientific miracles that “must” be found in any authentic scripture, of any religion. **

**The language of the old can be misleading especially in the field of science because anybody can manipulate its meanings to suit the agenda. **

Your zealous endeavor to compare the Qur’an’s “scientific” claims with the Bible’s is of no use. I can tell you now if this notion were presented to Nobel laureates, they’d throw it out the window. Not because they do not respect the Qur’an but because they will see through the lousy proselytism tactics. You are in fact doing more harm than good.
 
Time to give the first example of how Muslim scholars strive to mislead people by ascribing the grammatical features of their scripture’s (Koran) language (Arabic) to its alleged divine origin through an irrational connection between a certain verse and a certain scientific fact.

FEMALE HONEYBEES IN THE KORAN

We all have heard from Muslim preachers how miraculously Mohammed’s bible conforms to modern scientific discoveries and even predicts them 1400 years before their fulfillment. Nevertheless, these days more and more people realize that this sort of an Islamic propaganda aims to support the common claims of Koran’s uniqueness and divine origin. All of these supposed miracles related to scientific predictions in the Koran are continuously derived from some verses condemned to perversion. Whenever Muslim scholars fail to understand a verse or feel threatened by its problematic structure, they make use of this legend of scientific miracles by distorting Allah’s message or by simply telling lies about it.

One of the Islamic websites dedicated to the research of scientific miracles in the Koran praises the Islamic scripture for demonstrating divine wisdom in a verse describing honeybees.

– Worker bees being female (Quran 16:68)
A subtle yet extraordinary precision in describing a natural phenomenon occurs in Q.16:68: “And your Lord inspired the bee, (saying), 'Take for yourself dwellings in hills, on trees and in what they (mankind) build.’” The imperative “take” above is the translation of the Arabic word “ittakhidhi”, which is a **feminine form **(for Arabic verbs, unlike English ones, differentiate between the sexes). In Arabic, the female form is used when all those it refers to are female, whereas the masculine is used when a group contains at least one male. Therefore the Quran is in fact saying: “Take for yourself, you female bees, dwellings…”

A swarm of bees comprises three types: a queen, the worker bees who collect honey and build the hive, and the male drones, whose sole purpose is to impregnate the queen and are then killed off by the worker bees. These worker bees are all females with underdeveloped sex organs. Thus the phrasing of this command in the Qur’an is in perfect correspondence with the fact that male bees do not participate in the construction of the hive or “dwelling”, which is the sole work of the females. (ilaam.net/Articles/AuthenticQuran.html )

This website (like many Muslims) asserts that the Koran knew the gender of the working group of honeybees! We have a few objections:

First, the female imperative in the Koran verse will rather naturally escape the notice of people reading them in English since the so-called miraculous information is bound to the rules of the Arabic grammar! What Muslim scholars choose to ignore is that it is impossible and irrational to consider the verse in question miraculous with regard to the scientific facts about honeybees since what forces the Koran to address the honeybee with a gendered (feminine) imperative is neither its supposed divine origin nor its familiarity with the scientific facts of our time, but only the linguistic feature of the language (Arabic) it was written in! Arabic always - within and without the Koran - ascribes female gender to honeybees in general, even to the male ones!!!

Second, it is a linguistic fact that Arabic is not the only language in the world to attach female gender to honeybees and other certain species. For instance, the Italian equivalent of the word honeybee is l’ape di miele (la ape di miele), which is definitely a feminine noun. Thus, Muslim scholars should accept that a non-Muslim of Arabic origin would have pointed out this “scientific fact” whenever he/she used the word honeybee in Arabic long before the Koran was written.

Finally, we should check what a Christian saint of the fourth century wrote about honeybees. The following excerpt is taken from one of the homilies of St. Basil, the Bishop of Caesarea, who was one of the most distinguished Doctors of the Church. Born probably 329; died 1 January, 379. He ranks after Athanasius as a defender of the Oriental Church against the heresies of the fourth century.

Take the bee for your model, which constructs its cells without injuring any one and without interfering with the goods of others. It gathers openly wax from the flowers with its mouth, drawing in the honey scattered over them like dew, and injects it into the hollow of its cells. Thus at first honey is liquid; time thickens it and gives it its sweetness. The book of Proverbs has given the bee the most honorable and the best praise by calling her wise and industrious. How much activity she exerts in gathering this precious nourishment, by which both kings and men of low degree are brought to health! How great is the art and cunning she displays in the construction of the store houses which are destined to receive the honey! After having spread the wax like a thin membrane, she distributes it in contiguous compartments which, weak though they are, by their number and by their mass, sustain the whole edifice. Each cell in fact holds to the one next to it, and is separated by a thin partition; we thus see two or three galleries of cells built one upon the other. The bee takes care not to make one vast cavity, for fear it might break under the weight of the liquid, and allow it to escape. See how the discoveries of geometry are mere by-works to the **wise **bee! (newadvent.org/fathers/32018.htm)


Isn’t it amazing that a Christian saint born centuries before Mohammad describes honeybees as wise female creatures that produce honey?
 
Thanks you so much for taking the time and effort to post this for us Angelos, i cant wait to read what you wrote, as you know, im in awe of your genius and commitment to our wonderful Lord.
But, it is midnight where i am, so i will take time out and read it all tomorrow.
Again, thank you so much for doing this.
You are an inspiration.
May God bless you for your commitment to him. Your patience with people and the time to spread the truth for him.
Take care my dear brother :hug1:
 
many scientists are atheists or agnostics, does that make them true ?

there are scientists who believe life originated from mars and there
scientists who are determined to prove ( thus, believe ) bigfoot or the lochness monsters exists, does that make it true ?

i dont think many of those scientists you claim are muslims, so what’s stopping them becoming one ?

maybe they were paid, bucaille was a family physician for saudi royal family and he’s not a muslim

keith moore himself was offered a faculty position in king abdul aziz university, i cant find any info on his religion

anyway, i dont think anybody found anything from the quran

and this quote is from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/maurice_bucaille :

"Some of the Western scientists quoted in the widely publicized video “A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam,” later complained that untrue promises to be “completely neutral” and hard sell interviews by Sheikh Abdul Majeed Zindani were used to coax statements from them, later used out-of-context. "

no catholics, christians, buddhists, hindus, or even wiccans and jedi knights need/tried to prove anything ( we are not troubled teenagers ! ), and if we/they tried, i’m sure it’s easy to find, or in islam’s case, “come up” with something 😃

and most, if not all, of muslims claims are already rebutted, there are many rebuttals found in the internet, i read several and basicly
Angelos’ post #23 already explains the tactics
 
Thanks you so much for taking the time and effort to post this for us Angelos, i cant wait to read what you wrote, as you know, im in awe of your genius and commitment to our wonderful Lord.
But, it is midnight where i am, so i will take time out and read it all tomorrow.
Again, thank you so much for doing this.
You are an inspiration.
May God bless you for your commitment to him. Your patience with people and the time to spread the truth for him.
Take care my dear brother :hug1:
You are welcome, my dear friend. Thanks for your best wishes and prayers.

:hug1:
 
Big Bang theory:

Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke…(The Noble Quran, 41:11)

“And the firmament, We constructed with power and skill and verily We are expanding it. (The Noble Quran, 51:47)”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top